Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[jamescarruthers]

Is there a different and better approach for a noob that you guys would use instead or should I just stick to holding the throttle at 1K, 2K, 3K etc and pull the curve around at each point until I feel what I imagine what would be correct at each rev range?

Yep! This ain't rocket science.

It's all so subjective... just move it to what feels good.

 

[Dan Costa]

I cant really feel the RPM's in my real car between ~2100 and the redline, so thats what I mimic in simhub. Low hz to simulate deep idling up to 2100rpm and very high hz on the redline.

I test it by having assetto corsa open in the background while adjusting the curves in simhub.

Its a shame that this is an one size fits all, because I'm pretty sure 4 pots vibrate a lot differently from v8 but I'll never find out in what way.

It seems having a bass shaker connected to the audio instead of telemetry would be best to simulate engine vibrations, but it would also vibrate on every sound of the game.... If the @Wotever could magically isolate the game engine sound and passthrough it to a shaker channel, it would be awesome.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

I cant really feel the RPM's in my real car between ~2100 and the redline, so thats what I mimic in simhub. Low hz to simulate deep idling up to 2100rpm and very high hz on the redline.

I test it by having assetto corsa open in the background while adjusting the curves in simhub.

Its a shame that this is an one size fits all, because I'm pretty sure 4 pots vibrate a lot differently from v8 but I'll never find out in what way.

It seems having a bass shaker connected to the audio instead of telemetry would be best to simulate engine vibrations, but it would also vibrate on every sound of the game.... If the @Wotever could magically isolate the game engine sound and passthrough it to a shaker channel, it would be awesome.

I agree RPM is lowest priority. Its really zero value for driver feedback...its solely immersion value. I can't feel it in my racecar either. I shift solely based on engine SOUND, with a shiftlight as backup if I'm "busy" driving.

I know Mr. Latte has talked about mixing the game audio with telemetry tactile, but doing it externally along with DSP to isolate the engine audio.

But, I would leave RPM effects to very last once everything of DRIVER feedback value is solid and working.

 

[EsxPaul]

I cant really feel the RPM's in my real car between ~2100 and the redline

I agree RPM is lowest priority

That's interesting and not something I was expecting to hear. When I was imagining what tactile might feel like, engine RPM was the first thing that came to my mind for some reason.

I wonder if there would be a general concensus around which effects would be most essential if people were limited to only having two or three?

 

[jamescarruthers]

For sure it must be tyre slip, that's the biggest thing for me.

Then would be ABS etc

I guess its if you're using the immersion to... well... be immersed... or as an advantage to go faster.

 

[jamescarruthers]

Its a shame that this is an one size fits all, because I'm pretty sure 4 pots vibrate a lot differently from v8 but I'll never find out in what way.

There's a huge difference in the vibration for sure. I've always presumed the harmonics are linked to the number of cylinders — so you'd do something like... hz = rpm * cylinders — and then apply a multiplier. (remember that a four-stroke only fires once every two rotations)

Then on top of that you have engines like straight 6 and V12 that are naturally balanced and make very little vibration — compared to an American V8 that is naturally hugely unbalanced.

In truth - the engine noise has very little to do with the vibrations (for engine noise you need to look at the length of headers, exhausts etc)

 

[Mr Latte]

We are never going to replicate a real car with just simple tone generation. It is good for generating forces for specific things. We can capture some of the character of the car from the audio but to get the best from it for tactile, needs tweaking.

For singlular tactile units and bringing engine sensations.
Its possible to duplicate CEN/SUB channels with these being mono, they will contain most engine sounds but this channel may not have certain stereo based effects that will be placed on the front/rear stereo channels. We don't need magic, we just need to know how best to make use of it.

The various sim titles may have different mixes in how game sound effects are placed over the channels.
So how can we tell?

Its easy to connect the 5.1 audio to a unit like the Behringer HA6000 to study/determine with each title how all the individual effects (from the sound menu) are placed over the 5.1 channels. With this you discover how or what effects use the surround channels, which use the sub, which are front stereo and which are only mono etc.

Yet I bet you few people have looked into it, to such a level, it's part of what my own rig will do.

As for "immersion" each to their own thing. For me it's not necessarily about "realism" it's about what makes the experience more satisfying, entertaining, engrossing and enjoyable.

@EsxPaul you can also try looking at the more recent "Parametric" engine feature Simhub has with clicking (Add new effect). Some people want more simplistic engine effects this way they can feel more what the car is doing with wheelslip/bumps/braking and other sensations.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

That's interesting and not something I was expecting to hear. When I was imagining what tactile might feel like, engine RPM was the first thing that came to my mind for some reason.

I wonder if there would be a general concensus around which effects would be most essential if people were limited to only having two or three?

Everything that helps drive better:

1. Wheel slip/Lock (for lateral G limit)
2. Decel G (for braking control)
3. Road-impact/Rumble for curbs (for car placement at apex/entry/exit)

 

[DM77]

The t.racks just arrived, and the included Cee7 Schuko adapter Thomann supplied doesn't fit the included power adapter, as the adapter just has the plug at 90 degrees to the power brick, and its not just the two Euro pins on the end of a cable. Anyone else had this problem?

I've been looking for an adapter on Amazon but some of them don't appear to be anything more substantial than shaving adapters for the slightly different small appliances like toothbrushes and shavers.

 

[EsxPaul]

@DM77 I picked up a Ugreen UK spec power supply for the t.racks from Amazon. Not exactly cheap but I've never had any issues with their stuff:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UGREEN-100-240V-Portable-Keyboard-Approved/dp/B00UFK2JP4

 

[DM77]

@DM77 I picked up a Ugreen UK spec power supply for the t.racks from Amazon. Not exactly cheap but I've never had any issues with their stuff:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UGREEN-100-240V-Portable-Keyboard-Approved/dp/B00UFK2JP4

Perfect! I've just ordered one and it should arrive tomorrow.

And I've ordered a 2nd pair of Dayton exciters. Fun times ahead!

 

[ScreaminBejesus]

And I've ordered a 2nd pair of Dayton exciters. Fun times ahead!

I just installed four more Dayton DAEX32EP-4 exciters (for a total now of eight). These are very impressive, especially in conjunction with an LFE (or two or three).

 

[DM77]

I just installed four more Dayton DAEX32EP-4 exciters (for a total now of eight). These are very impressive, especially in conjunction with an LFE (or two or three).

I think 4 will be my limit I already have too many cables than I can handle! And my wife has been pretty understanding so far with all my kit set up in the living room.

Has anyone had much luck attaching these to a leather seat? Currently I think these will have to go on the side support plates, but I can't experiment until I get the new power supply for the t.racks DSP. And I don't have any aluminium strips I can attach. I get the feeling the seat padding will just absorb a lot of the vibrations as I don't get much from the ADX Maximus I strapped to the back already.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

I thought maybe a visual of the simhub effect generation process might help some folks. The diagram below is a simplfied version of the simhub custom effect process. The same process applies to the standard effects, except that the input function (F(x,y,z) is predefined.

F(x,y,z): is an arbitrary math function of incoming telemetry data. In addition to Game telemetry, other effects can make their output amplitude available for use by other effects. There's a whole programming language available for creating these math functions.

Resp Curve: is the Simhub Response Curve.
Mod: Simhub Output Modulation
Delay: Simhub Output delay
Freq: Simhub base frequency modulation
Noise: Simhub noise injection
Output: Final output stage where amplitude and frequency are combined to create the final signal.

In the diagram below I included example waveforms to show how the intermediate signals are changed by each stage. These are just arbitrary to give you a flavor of how things work.

F(x,y,z) produces a ramp-up/down from 0-100-0%.

The entire top chain of the diagram is determining how "intense" the output signal is.
Resp curve, cuts the input "in half" 0-50-0%.
Mod stretches it out a little bit. In reality this is more complex...but, it gives you an idea.
Delay shifts the entire thing out in time.

The bottom portion of the diagram determines the "tone" of the output.

Freq can be either a pure tone, as just a single fixed frequency. Or, as I've show in the case below, it can change based on an input signal. There are two options: 1) the freq can be a function of F(x,y,z), or 2) the freq can be a function of resp.curve. Either case can produce a complex signal, which is hard to visualize. So, I've kept it simple for clarity. The graph of the freq tone shows a changing sine-wave whose freq increases and decreases like the resp.curve.

Noise, takes the pure sine-wave tone, and adds some randomness to it. Again, its hard to visualize graphically. But, if you look closely you can see how the sine-wave has some distortions in its shape.

Finally the output stage takes the frequency output from the noise transformation stage, and shapes it using the amplitude from the delay transformation. Thus, you end up with the final output signal that can be driven onto an exciter.

 

[jordan2110]

Hi everyone, could someone please help me setup my Dayton Puck tactile transducers. I bought four 8ohm version and bought this amp https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0785JNBCM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_swBeFbGRZNHP6


Now what is best way to connect to computer. I plugged a 3.5mm to the Orange (subwoofer) output on the computers IO audio output and other end to the amp. Where do I go from there? Thanks. What settings should I use. I only have USB powered headphone and no speakers.

I tried using Simhub. But only one puck produced anything and played only audio. Thanks

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Hi everyone, could someone please help me setup my Dayton Puck tactile transducers. I bought four 8ohm version and bought this amp https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0785JNBCM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_swBeFbGRZNHP6


Now what is best way to connect to computer. I plugged a 3.5mm to the Orange (subwoofer) output on the computers IO audio output and other end to the amp. Where do I go from there? Thanks. What settings should I use. I only have USB powered headphone and no speakers.

I tried using Simhub. But only one puck produced anything and played only audio. Thanks

Have you read this post?

Did you buy two amplifiers? One for each pair of exciters? Not sure that's the best amp choice, but....you've got it, so good luck.

You will have to determine which outputs from your computer generate what signals? Be warned: some sound cards have three outputs per 3.5mm jack, such as the Audigy RX 7.1. This card has RR/LR/Side-Right on a single 3.5mm jack (using a TRRS type plug), and Center/Sub/Side-left on another single 3.5mm TRRS jack.

Note: a normal stereo 3.5mm jack is TRS (tip, ring, shaft)...a TRRS has an extra ring for the third channel. These two jack types are not compatible, so a TRS plug won't work right in a TRRS socket. You won't get audio out of one of the channels.

If you have similar outputs from your computer then you will have to find or make a special cable to adapt from TRRS (3-channel) to TRS (2-channel) 3.5mm jacks.

After you get the cabling squared away....you will need to determine which sound-card output channel corresponds (LF/RF/LR/RR/LSide/RSide/Center/Sub) to each simhub channel number (ch1-8). I've listed the 7.1 channels, if you only have 5.1 then you don't have the "side" channels. But, the problem is the same---just 6 instead of 8 total channels. This takes some experimentation.

Turn your volume down on your amplifier to 25% or something low-ish, so you don't damage anything until you know how things are connected and everything is right. Connect your (two) exciters to one of your amps, and plug its cable into the amp. Then plug that cable into one of your sound-card outputs in your computer.

Next open simhub baseshakers, and go to the sound output tab. Enable a global effect such as Gear Shift on a single output channel (eg, CH1). then go to the effects profile page, and enable the selected effect, Gear Shift in my example. In the live effects graph...click "test". That will create a short output, on channel 1. Does it make one of your shakers active? Yes? (note which one). No? go back to the ouput page, and turn off Ch1, and turn on ch2. Repeat. Work your way through all the channels until you know which output maps to which channel numbers. Write all this down. Maybe use a label maker to label your cables.

 

[jordan2110]

Have you read this post?

Did you buy two amplifiers? One for each pair of exciters? Not sure that's the best amp choice, but....you've got it, so good luck.

You will have to determine which outputs from your computer generate what signals? Be warned: some sound cards have three outputs per 3.5mm jack, such as the Audigy RX 7.1. This card has RR/LR/Side-Right on a single 3.5mm jack (using a TRRS type plug), and Center/Sub/Side-left on another single 3.5mm TRRS jack.

Note: a normal stereo 3.5mm jack is TRS (tip, ring, shaft)...a TRRS has an extra ring for the third channel. These two jack types are not compatible, so a TRS plug won't work right in a TRRS socket. You won't get audio out of one of the channels.

If you have similar outputs from your computer then you will have to find or make a special cable to adapt from TRRS (3-channel) to TRS (2-channel) 3.5mm jacks.

After you get the cabling squared away....you will need to determine which sound-card output channel corresponds (LF/RF/LR/RR/LSide/RSide/Center/Sub) to each simhub channel number (ch1-8). I've listed the 7.1 channels, if you only have 5.1 then you don't have the "side" channels. But, the problem is the same---just 6 instead of 8 total channels. This takes some experimentation.

Turn your volume down on your amplifier to 25% or something low-ish, so you don't damage anything until you know how things are connected and everything is right. Connect your (two) exciters to one of your amps, and plug its cable into the amp. Then plug that cable into one of your sound-card outputs in your computer.

Next open simhub baseshakers, and go to the sound output tab. Enable a global effect such as Gear Shift on a single output channel (eg, CH1). then go to the effects profile page, and enable the selected effect, Gear Shift in my example. In the live effects graph...click "test". That will create a short output, on channel 1. Does it make one of your shakers active? Yes? (note which one). No? go back to the ouput page, and turn off Ch1, and turn on ch2. Repeat. Work your way through all the channels until you know which output maps to which channel numbers. Write all this down. Maybe use a label maker to label your cables.

I purchased just 1- 2 channel amp I'm using the Motherboards built in sound card.

Light Blu- Line In
Lime-Line Out,Front Speaker Out
Pink- Mic In
Orange – – Center/Subwoofer
Black – Rear Speaker
Gray – – – Side Speaker Out


I'm wondering do I get a 3.5mm Y splitter and plug into 2 connections on the mobo. If so which colourd.

In the computer settings what do I set things in Realtek Audio manager stereo? Or Windows sound settings 5.1? 7.1? Do I turn speakers off and just turn on subwoofer.

 

[ScreaminBejesus]

I think 4 will be my limit I already have too many cables than I can handle! And my wife has been pretty understanding so far with all my kit set up in the living room.

I hear ya

 

[DM77]

Got the first pair hooked up, tested all the cables, interconnects and channels and it all seems to behave! Now I gotta test placement, learn how to use the t.racks software and get the EQ done, then I can mess about with SimHub...

When I tried to update the firmware on the T.racks nothing happened, does this probably mean the existing firmware is the newest version available? Anyone else had issues?

And messing with placement so far, I think I need a solid seat...

 

[DM77]

Apologies for the wall of text!

OK so I've spent a few hours reading this forum backwards page by page, back to page 121, and there's a LOT of questions and answers which is great, but I think my rig (being a budget GT Omega ART rather than an 80/20 and having a typical gaming racing seat rather than a carbon seat) is a bit different than most of the kit I've seen people asking questions about.

I could spend a day or two reading further backwards, but I'm not sure I'll end up with the right solution to my current doubts/dilema.

I'm a bit lost as to placement of the Dayton units on my squishy leather gaming seat on this rig. Being new to the software and its true potential, and the mixing/layering of effects and using delays over multiple channels - I dont know what my actual options are, and which options are good or bad.

All my tactile audio is routed through a single Sound Blaster Zs 5.1. I don't really want to mess with onboard audio, I detest the software that comes with that stuff, and I have zero space for a second card. USB's are limited so I can't really add an external USB sound card.

Now I've receved 2 of the 4 DaytonDAEX32EP-4's (remaining two should arrive in a week from Wall of Sound) and hooked them up to the Behringer EPQ304 and the t.racks 4x mini DSP.

I understand mixing different tiers of transducers/tactiles/exciters from the same audio source can cause issues either with low frequencies overloading small units or sacrificing the bass cutoff and not fully leveraging the available frequency range of the BK LFE - but I can get round this with the t.racks DSP.

Existing setup is a BK LFE under my seat powered by one channel on my Behringer DSP1000, and a pair of ADX maximus units hooked up to the other channel, wired in series and placed on the spine of my seat and under the pedal deck - so my existing tactile has no stereo effects. It's good for universal stuff, but no corners based effects and rumble strips are obviously not coming from the right locations - but its been a good enough start for me so far, and that setup was about the limit of my abilities, budget and understanding about 2 years ago when using SimShakerWheels - I'm fixing this by adding the 4x Dayton DAEX32EP-4's and the SimHub software.

I made the mistake of mounting the BK LFE to the rig, rather than the underside of the seat, however mounting options under the seat aren't obvious to me right now and I'm not in a position to easily dismantle the rig and start playing around with things (I'm actually sat in it 9-5 working from home during the pandemic) and I can't easily fabricate something. The BK LFE still gets the job done so I don't really want to change it until I maybe change my rig in the future.

I've not had time to experiment with Simhub profiles yet. I discovered the software 2 months ago but I've only had time to try the default settings with Forza Horizon 4 so far - don't laugh!

Last night I ran a sine wave test tone through the t.racks software just to place one of the Dayton units in different spots whilst I sat in the rig - the problem is that I'm probably absorbing a lot of the energy by holding the unit, and its hard to localise the vibrations when it's also rattling my hand and arm. Reaching round the back of the seat is also obviously limited and difficult. I might need my wife to try placing a unit round the shoulder blade area to test as an alternative.

The side seat support pannels seem OK towards the centre, but output still feels pretty limited (but this is only with the test tone at conservative volume) and I think it might get swamped by the ADX and BK units.

The seat itself in the knee area feels decent, as long as I dont catch the units getting in and exiting the seat.

The spine of the seat feels good, but only really close to the centre, I don't know if a pair there will still provide good separation and easy-to-distinguish left/right feeling.

Under the seat in the buttocs area seems effective, there is a metal support there for the seat cushioning, but mounting tactiles there would concern me a bit as the cushioning pushes down slightly past the metal bar, I feel a tactile could potenitally work loose even if I attach it with some Dual Lock.

I can't decide where to mount these 4 Dayton units, and I'm also unsure which effects I'm best trying out there once they are in place.

Should the effects dictate the location, or should the tactile effectiveness dictate the location and I match the effects to personal preference? Or will I maybe just have to accept something not-quite optimal due to the construction of the rig?

Any thoughts/pointers would be appreciated!