Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[JohnNgSF]

The California Lockdown has me revisiting my Media Room and updating my components. I am racing on the PS4 with a Logitech G25 wheel/pedal using the Drive Hub adapter. I noticed that my two ButtKicker LFEs are not working and its probably because the ButtKicker BKA1000-4A is gone (and notoriously known to fail). So, I looking to replace it with an amplifier that can drive both LFEs in a single unit. Someone recommended the Dayton Audio SA1000, but I see that unit as a mono amp, and I would need two SA1000s? Hence seeking recommendations, and determining whether or not the ART CLEANBoxPro is needed? Thanks in advance for the assistance.

 

[Mr Latte]

I added the same shakers a couple of weeks ago...

View attachment 366483View attachment 366484View attachment 366485

They work pretty well and it's great to have some tactile from the front of the rig but I've got a lot of cross talk so don't get a clear stereo effect. I'm waiting for some different isolators to arrive so I can hopefully reduce the cross talk going through my rig... I'm not expecting a huge improvement tbh.

I'm running mine off a FOSI BT20A (£70). It's at half volume with Simhub also set at 50%, seems well suited for the money and hasn't skipped a beat.

Using road vibration and a small amount of gear shift feels good. I probably wouldn't attempt to put stereo effects through them if I was to install them again, I imagine this only can be improved upon if you run pedals that can be mounted separately. You might want to consider using one shaker and using the 2nd elsewhere on your rig and I presume it'll make your install easier. Let me know if you need any other details. Hope that's of help.

Tip:
Install to the center of the seat a set of 8020 rails rather than the large BK bolted directly to the seat itself.


Why is that Mr Latte? (lol)

To have it do the following:

1) 8020 rails bolted to the underside of seat and back of the seat will transfer energy into the seat at different entry points
2) Expand the path of these rails also forward to a section that goes down towards the pedal region

Your seats large BK will now be delivering better energy transfer to the seat base, seat back, and also the pedals.
Experiment, see what you discover.

Based on my own testing/experimentation:
I will have central BK at the pedals and seat for RPM/Speed and Longitidunal G distribution.
These will be linked/bridged together by channeled tubing so the energy from each will go to both seat/pedal regions as a central mono front/back controlled tactile pathway. If it works in test builds with my steel tubing then it will work with 8020.


As for L/R crosstalk, if you have pedals connected to a singular frame like the V3 use, then that frame will always transmit L/R vibes to the whole set of pedals. Most rigs do not and will not offer very good L/R tactile, especially in the pedals as the pathway for the energy to travel is only a few inches.

To do such properly needs a specialist build that controls the tactile path and transfers better the individual energy from each L or R unit into the users feet/body.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

Tip:
Install to the center of the seat a set of 8020 rails rather than the large BK bolted directly to the seat itself.


Why is that Mr Latte? (lol)

To have it do the following:

1) 8020 rails bolted to the underside of seat and back of the seat will transfer energy into the seat at different entry points
2) Expand the path of these rails also forward to a section that goes down towards the pedal region

Your seats large BK will now be delivering better energy transfer to the seat base, seat back, and also the pedals.
Experiment, see what you discover.

Based on my own testing/experimentation:
I will have central BK at the pedals and seat for RPM/Speed and Longitidunal G distribution.
These will be linked/bridged together by channeled tubing so the energy from each will go to both seat/pedal regions as a central mono front/back controlled tactile pathway. If it works in test builds with my steel tubing then it will work with 8020.


As for L/R crosstalk, if you have pedals connected to a singular frame like the V3 use, then that frame will always transmit L/R vibes to the whole set of pedals. Most rigs do not and will not offer very good L/R tactile, especially in the pedals as the pathway for the energy to travel is only a few inches.

To do such properly needs a specialist build that controls the tactile path and transfers better the individual energy from each L or R unit into the users feet/body.

I'm quite interested to test the option of mounting my LFE on some kind over overhang. I could easily use the existing mounting holes by using an 80mm wide profile with brackets on each side (the holes in my seat base are roughly 120mm apart). I would need to run it out of the back of my seat though due to a TST being at the front. I'll look at getting some profile ordered and give it a try.

Completely understand with the pedals. I knew I'd be getting cross talk through their frame, hopefully better isolation from the rig will improve the cross talk currently going through the 8020. I don't expect miracles but will leave them fitted as they are. Still wouldn't recommend others to take the same approach, it feels like more expense and effort than it's worth.

Just added an RPM idle effect to the pedals that works well. Thought I'd give them something to do whilst I'm on the start line

 

[RCHeliguy]

As for L/R crosstalk, if you have pedals connected to a singular frame like the V3 use, then that frame will always transmit L/R vibes to the whole set of pedals. Most rigs do not and will not offer very good L/R tactile, especially in the pedals as the pathway for the energy to travel is only a few inches.

Exactly.
I "tried" to get stereo separation with the V3 pedals like this by isolating the front plate from the frame and hanging a transducer off each side. I couldn't feel any stereo separation at all.

Since then I've gone in a completely different direction.
The heels of each of my shoes now rest nearly centered over a transducer.
The foot plate is isolated with soft 30 durometer sorbothane on all 4 corners.
Then there is a single rigid mount top center.
The result is that there is actually quite good stereo separation. I can clearly feel a left or right side rumble strip or if just one wheel is starting to lose traction. I won't suggest that there is no cross talk, but it is working well for me.

The transducers are also slightly shifted towards me to allow a bit more motion at the back of the plate and to center the transducers under my heels better. Compared to the plate before this one, there was an efficiency gain.

 

[Mr Latte]

Ive never seen any rig tackle this properly in a creative way.

One day soon to come, they will see
They will see
They willl seeeeeee

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm quite interested to test the option of mounting my LFE on some kind over overhang. I could easily use the existing mounting holes by using an 80mm wide profile with brackets on each side (the holes in my seat base are roughly 120mm apart). I would need to run it out of the back of my seat though due to a TST being at the front. I'll look at getting some profile ordered and give it a try.

Completely understand with the pedals. I knew I'd be getting cross talk through their frame, hopefully better isolation from the rig will improve the cross talk currently going through the 8020. I don't expect miracles but will leave them fitted as they are. Still wouldn't recommend others to take the same approach, it feels like more expense and effort than it's worth.

Just added an RPM idle effect to the pedals that works well. Thought I'd give them something to do whilst I'm on the start line

Its about using the energy from the LFE to benefit both the seat and the pedals.
If you would do this then you will get better low bass energy in your pedals extending from the large LFE more than the Aura will offer.

Ive said in the past the seat is the best place to focus on, as it clearly has the bigger body region. Although, that does not mean we cannot use this energy from a seat installed unit to also bring immersion to the pedals.

The TST can be attached to the same pathway if you combine it to operate in conjunction with the LFE
I would focus on this to get better quality in the immersion than try to get stereo feedback with crosstalk issues and small units.

Perhaps too many people think with the mindset, of the "Chassis Mode" type install being the best solution.
Is it really?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Too many of you think with the mindset, of the "Chassis Mode" type install being the best solution.
Is it really?

SimVibe which was the very first real software to handle this did have a clear separation between Chassis Mode and Effects. So they seemed to have an idea of how that would work.

Personally I think vibration is all about "contact patches" ( feet, hands, butt )

I feel like I've covered all 3 of those areas in a very basic way. I have no left / right side directionality on my seat and I realize having separate transducers for separate effects is better than sharing transducers for multiple effects that can conflict with each other and I know you are doing fun things with lots of little exciters.

Right now I think that D-Box has the best Chassis mode that you could augment with effects.

 

[Mr Latte]

SimVibe which was the very first real software to handle this did have a clear separation between Chassis Mode and Effects. So they seemed to have an idea of how that would work.

Personally I think vibration is all about "contact patches" ( feet, hands, butt )

I feel like I've covered all 3 of those areas in a very basic way. I have no left / right side directionality on my seat and I realize having separate transducers for separate effects is better than sharing transducers for multiple effects that can conflict with each other and I know you are doing fun things with lots of little exciters.

Right now I think that D-Box has the best Chassis mode that you could augment with effects.

Let me ask you, what effects Simvibe has that are stereo in operation?
Just because Simvibe uses 4 channel CM does not mean the effects all work in stereo over that configuration.

SFX I believe, sends the same effect to each actuator, I dont know if D-Box does this also in that it generates an effect to multiple points.
That can be classified as multi-dimensional but it's not necessarily like front and rear independent stereo.

With Simhub we can have several effects work in stereo (its sim dependent) but to my knowledge no motion-based tactile is as good as the potential we have with Simhub for effects creation and distribution.

 

[jamman39]

....I would advise to seek to spend $200 and get a better but decent entry into it if you want to spend that amount or more?

Mr Latte thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I really appreciate it. My search for a plug and play solution led me to the Realteus ForceFeel. For $220 shipped to the US it looks like it will fit my budget and setup very well. I’m aware that a lot of their customers have had bad experiences with them though, especially with long wait times so I’ll update this post when (hopefully) it arrives and give my impressions

 

[RCHeliguy]

Let me ask you, what effects Simvibe has that are stereo in operation?
Just because Simvibe uses 4 channel CM does not mean the effects all work in stereo over that configuration.

SFX I believe, sends the same effect to each actuator, I dont know if D-Box does this also in that it generates an effect to multiple points.
That can be classified as multi-dimensional but it's not necessarily like front and rear independent stereo.

With Simhub we can have several effects work in stereo (its sim dependent) but to my knowledge no motion-based tactile is as good as the potential we have with Simhub for effects creation and distribution.

I have no idea. Like you I moved over to SimHub a while ago, probably because of your recommendation.

Just saying that SimExperience was at least thinking of keeping suspension separate from other effects.

No Idea about SFX tactile effects either.

However I beleive S-Box is actually using for channels separately.

I would LOVE to try out the D-Box tactile and get back to you. I would seriously consider picking their Gen 3 system up, except it looks like we are heading into a world wide depression and I think I should hold on to my money right now.

 

[Chrhun]

I added the same shakers a couple of weeks ago...

Thank you very much for a great and illustrative answer. I have a seat mover that does road surface, gear changes and such effect superbly. I also have an exciter setup on the seat, so what I'm actually looking for from a pedal setup is wheel slip and wheel lock / abs kind of information.

You might be right that one unit would be enough for the pedals.

What I do not want is yet another unit with a power switch to turn on when I want to race.

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

Thank you very much for a great and illustrative answer. I have a seat mover that does road surface, gear changes and such effect superbly. I also have an exciter setup on the seat, so what I'm actually looking for from a pedal setup is wheel slip and wheel lock / abs kind of information.

You might be right that one unit would be enough for the pedals.

What I do not want is yet another unit with a power switch to turn on when I want to race.

You're welcome. Let me know if you think I can help with any other advice around it.

I'm starting to like the daft amount of buttons and devices I need to switch on when I get in my rig. Almost feels like I'm preparing for take-off!

 

[Chrhun]

You're welcome. Let me know if you think I can help with any other advice around it.

I'm starting to like the daft amount of buttons and devices I need to switch on when I get in my rig. Almost feels like I'm preparing for take-off!

Thanks! Can you tell me a bit more about the isolation - what is the purpose and how is it done, achieved?

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

Thanks! Can you tell me a bit more about the isolation - what is the purpose and how is it done, achieved?

Your aim is to isolate the pedal set from your rig so the vibrations remain in that location. To do this, you want to use rubber isolators where the pedal set connects to your rig... whilst still trying to keep a strong connection so your pedals don't have movement in them.

Do you have a photo or description of your pedals and rig? We can then hopefully advise on product options.

 

[Kieran527]

@RCHeliguy what plug/socket did you use for quick couple/uncouple of the speaker cables to your rig?

 

[RCHeliguy]

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Just remember that the receiver NEEDS to be soldered.

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[Kieran527]

thank you

 

[gnoshme]

My next step would be add tactile units under my pedal tray. Simple solution needed, two units and one amp. What would be a good setup with reasonable cost? I'm thinking Aura's, AuraSound AST-2B-4, but what would be small and good amp with these?

I use AuraSounds on my pedalboard. The thing with pedal assemblies is they are designed to be very rigid which is counter to getting a good stereo effect. Still worth using two, and using them in stereo but don't expect to get really good left foot vs right foot feel.

In terms of amps, I haven't found anything I love that is a nice tidy unit but have found circuit boards that are great. There is one amp on here that drvies aurasounds well that I refer to as the "least DIY" option and it works fine but runs hot if you push the AuraSounds hard. For pedal board levels though it could be fine.

https://www.vanagony.com/buttkicker-amps-bass-shaker-cheap-amp-alternatives-driving-chair-sim/

 

[Chrhun]

Your aim is to isolate the pedal set from your rig so the vibrations remain in that location. To do this, you want to use rubber isolators where the pedal set connects to your rig... whilst still trying to keep a strong connection so your pedals don't have movement in them.

Do you have a photo or description of your pedals and rig? We can then hopefully advise on product options.

Your aim is to isolate the pedal set from your rig so the vibrations remain in that location. To do this, you want to use rubber isolators where the pedal set connects to your rig... whilst still trying to keep a strong connection so your pedals don't have movement in them.

Do you have a photo or description of your pedals and rig? We can then hopefully advise on product options.

Thanks a again for your clear reply. I get the isolation idea now. I run the Sim Lab GT1 Evo with it's standard pedal deck. I don't see an easy way of isolating that from the rest of the rig

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

Thanks a again for your clear reply. I get the isolation idea now. I run the Sim Lab GT1 Evo with it's standard pedal deck. I don't see an easy way of isolating that from the rest of the rig

Thanks for sharing your rig, that's a nice setup. Yeah, it's going to be difficult to isolate your pedal set without being creative and maybe manufacturing some kind of heel plate that you could connect the shakers to. I've a custom 8020 rig, it's a very similar style and I've got the same SimLab DD mounts. If you go down the route of attaching Aura shakers directly to your rig or pedal plate, you will feel them come through your wheel quite a bit. Some people might like this but I found it really annoying.

The obvious place to add isolation is where the pedal plate fixes to the profile but I'm presuming that it would still be tight against the side pieces. I'm scratching my head, anyone else see a solution to this?

(I'm trying to avoid Mr Latte suggesting you build a 2 piece custom pedal plate from the world's finest materials)