Simhub Shakeit - Large Buttkicker LFE & Concert - Effects Experimentation

[Mr Latte]

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While not many users will own the largest Buttkicker units due to their cost and high wattage amps required to power them. I know we have some on the forums that own at least one and a few will have purchased amps I have recommended for these going back almost 8 years.

What I want to do in this thread is share some of my own testing/experimentation with these units. How for me I was able to get the most out of them after a long and extensive period of testing. I am making files available for people if they are interested they can try these effects if owning the required hardware.

My own custom build is going to use multiple sets of large BK units (as well as others) and apply the usage of them for specific duties or roles for certain effects. So this is an unofficial Simhub/Shakeit thread that is focused around my own efforts and tactile immersion interests with various effects I have created.

Simhub Shakeit:
WOW as software, this has brought a lot more potential and control to what we can now do with tactile. In the last year updates and improved features, it offers have opened a door to new possibilities compared to any other tactile based software. Its developer deserves a lot of credit and those involved to making it what it has become.

We have right now, is the potential to take tactile immersion far further than most builds currently use and indeed what we see even with expensive professional rigs shown at events like Sim Expo. Many rigs specialise with "motion" for enhanced immersion but really little has been done in a creative way to do this with tactile.

What I want to do here is help others discover how we can bring superb emotion and immersion with powerful tactile for static rigs but also complement motion rigs.

Whats the point?
These large units have the ability to output very low frequencies and this is a big benefit over common transducers. My intention is to bring much more energy, character and immersion for several high energy effects, such as:

• Engine Aspects
• Large Bumps & Impacts
• Braking
• Acceleration
• Lateral G

 

[Mr Latte]

My experience is only using road impacts, rumble,vibration on Buttkicker LFEs, and RPM on seperate Buttkicker mini, imo. other effected are more fantasy.For Example gearshift, I have always output while disengage the gear that is not real practical, better result I have getting from a motion surge system.
Imo Driving G-Forces are not replicable with a static driver, for speed the human has no sensation except in open cars by wind.
Important is having mounted the Buttkicker on a swinging elastically system like springs and springboard using only a single lowest possible frequency in my case 8 Hz for LFEs with linear response curve and 13 for mini with a decreasing response curve on higher gain.

I suppose it depends on what testing you did and experienced to form the opinion you shared.
Some people have their own approach in how the tactile is used/installed or implemented. However, can you explain more your perspective on the following:

"Imo Driving G-Forces are not replicable with a static driver, for speed the human has no sensation except in open cars by wind."

Why does "Speed" have to be related only for "wind noise" in open cars?

Just own findings and trials but with Simhub I wanted to try something different. Using "Speed" so that it can be applied with low bass to enhance increased engine strain towards the cars top speeds, bringing a response when the car used is nearing max speeds that you really feel a growing surge in the increase of energy. An illustration would be to represent the whole chassis vibrating from the engines output and also increased road surface noise from tyres as the car is pushed more into the ground from the downforce for a "felt scenario" that's much different or not applied when at slower/normal speeds.

This can also be added to the effects used for RPM and they work best when placed on a different unit to the RPM as both are quite active/constant effects but requiring different frequency outputs in their timings/activity. It can also be customized to operate differently for specific (fave used cars) to help give different cars their own unique feel or character. Why does a slower car with little top speed and reduced downforce have to feel the same as a much faster car with much more downforce. My view is, it doesn't yet most people use the same or very similar rpm and tactile settings for nearly all cars right?

Testing showed that In using @14-19Hz those frequencies with a high gain (using a suitable curve with low bass) will generate a unique felt response that can shake the users facial features, earlobes, eyelids but of course applied in a strength to suit the individual users taste.

Speed can also be used to help highlight added weight in deceleration and then combined with longitudinal G based forces as well as separate sensations for braking/wheelock. So from my own findings/experiences a track like Monza with high-speed straights and then braking for 2nd gear corners being a perfect example of doing something with tactile thats quite engrossing, really enjoyable yet far from the normal tactile people experience and something immersion wise that motion wont deliver neither.

G-Forces, ahh the problem with this is people are comparing what a motion seat/rig does and expecting tactile to also move/compress the body and do the same. Which we know it cant but people thinking like this are not taking into account how we use the G-Forces with differing low bass output to also bring felt sensations you won't necessarily get with motion and to help achieve more variation to different cars in the immersion or felt vibration they produce when under such loads. Audio lets us use/apply distinctly different feelings for different types of cars if we want to go that deep or route.

Should an F1 cars deceleration/braking feel the same as a Fiat 500 and should their lateral G based sensations feel the same?

I don't quite go along with the "we cant use tactile for G-Forces" mindset, for increased immersion.
As can I ask how do these two types of cars (F1/Fiat 500) feel different with a G-Seat or Motion rig. Can someone please test and tell me describing the differences each car produces with motion.

I still of course believe more improvements are to be found in building new or updated effects but the potential I expect is that there is scope to do something beyond the norm.

 

[wingert]

. However, can you explain more your perspective on the following:
"Imo Driving G-Forces are not replicable with a static driver, for speed the human has no sensation except in open cars by wind."

Because human have no sensation for speed only for acceleration forces e. g. the earth spins around its center and nobody can feel it, or the extreme speed in a plane that is not noticeable.
However wind generates speed depending noise and air pressure

Moving G-Force (centrifugal Force ,not Gravity) is the interaction between the moving chassis and driver, if the chassis changes it direction and the driver resisted, feeling a stable force in opposite direction of the chassis.

 

[Mr Latte]

Because human have no sensation for speed only for acceleration forces e. g. the earth spins around its center and nobody can feel it, or the extreme speed in a plane that is not noticeable.
However wind generates speed depending noise and air pressure

Moving G-Force (centrifugal Force ,not Gravity) is the interaction between the moving chassis and driver, if the chassis changes it direction and the driver resisted, feeling a stable force in opposite direction of the chassis.

Simulation Is Not Reality Friend

So, I just gave you an example of using an effect for speed-related immersion to enhance a scenario in "sim racing". Simulation nor immersion has to be fully accurate or realistic with the laws of physics applied for it to be engaging for gaming do they? Now, just look at motion its not realistic or natural (hence why some dont like it) but I bet for most it's a very engrossing addition and great for the immersion/interaction it brings.

Simvibe used a rather basic effect for wind, in the simulation we want to bring more thrill/drama to increasing rpm and higher speeds, yes? Just as we may want to bring more felt involvement or engagement in high G scenarios, yes? I'm saying that it's possible with tactile to do that with some creativity and implementation of how its used,

 

[wingert]

Simulation Is Not Reality Friend

In my view, simulation is the approach to reality as close as possible.
Each system, motion, tactile, ffb etc. has its part to realize that.

 

[Mr Latte]

In my view, simulation is the approach to reality as close as possible.
Each system, motion, tactile, ffb etc. has its part to realize that.

Isn't that, pretending and deceiving oneself such is like reality when really it's not close at all?

In my view, its immersion, engagement, interaction and it all being a form of entertainment. As the only reality is, that really these are just games.

 

[Sheepherd]

Hi All
This thread seems quiet for some time. Having just installed a BK Concert to my seat, powered by NX3000D I'm looking for somewhere to chat about getting the best from it. I know there was a mention in another thread about possibility of a group of people with similar HW getting together to discuss and share info and I'm just wondering where might be best.

I also have 2x Douk M4 to power 8x DAEX32EP-4 when they arrive.

Hope to get my head round some of the basic to get a good immersion and be able to provide some feedback and help for others intersted.
Thanks

 

[FireWithin]

Me, BK LFE (seat) & BK gamer2 (shifter) powered by NX3000D + another BK gamer2 (pedals) powered by a small Nobsound G2.

 

[RacingMat]

I'd like to buy a big buttkicker and hesitate between LFE and concert.
I've read that "The concert version emphasizes 25-40 Hz while the LFE emphasizes 5-25 Hz."
I would choose lower Hz capabilities because other bass shakers can more easily feed higher Hz.

@Mr Latte : But does your experiments indicate that one is better than the other for simracing?
or are they complimentary? which I hope not as the budget would double!

Thanks!

 

[anton_Chez]

If you were going to get the big LFE I'd get the Mini LFE to match with it. The concert or advance would probably be a waste. Those would best suit having them by themselves. I could be wrong however. I have Mini LFE's and they go to around 35hz and are pretty strong at that range. Anything lower and you run into issue with them. You could use the big LFE for really low end stuff and the rest could be used by the Mini's. They are fairly cheap compared to the bigger units.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'd like to buy a big buttkicker and hesitate between LFE and concert.
I've read that "The concert version emphasizes 25-40 Hz while the LFE emphasizes 5-25 Hz."
I would choose lower Hz capabilities because other bass shakers can more easily feed higher Hz.

@Mr Latte : But does your experiments indicate that one is better than the other for simracing?
or are they complimentary? which I hope not as the budget would double!

Thanks!

When my own rig is at the point with the tactile re-installed. I will delve deeper into comparing both BKs to the Earthquake in a more detailed set of tests.

I cannot say one "BK" unit immediately stood out to be much better than the other.
Is it partly marketing, maybe but when using the NX3000D you can easily tune each unit to offer more or less output for specific frequencies anyways.

An owner of a BK on its own will want it to output a wider range and it can do okay with that, better than most budget units as you have all the extra low frequencies you can use that they dont work well with. What you miss is detailed bass above 60Hz and its here the TST will easily take over as the unit to bring more to the quality you feel from mid-higher frequencies.

In my experience for what we are doing, the BK partner best with units like the TST 329 or 429 if seeking best performance but at high costs. However the 209 or 239 can be used to work well from 30ish Hz but are better than BK over 60Hz and well beyond that.

Pairing a large BK with a small BK is not so good at all as you then are still restricted by the limited output over 60Hz. You want what gives the best output over the full 200Hz. So the Exciters and the TST units can bring their own certain advantages, other units do not bring.

One thing is certain my own views are based on testing and effects experimentation.
My goal has been to get the very best tactile we can creatively attempt to achieve.

I have reduced what my own rig will use, removing 2 BK from the previous configuration:

Here is the current plan
Corners = 4x BK LFE combined with 4x TST 429 for corner based effects.
Stereo = 2x BK LFE for additional stereo effects representation
Mono Front = 1x BK Concert for SPEED/GEAR combined with TST 329 for RPM
Mono Rear = 1x BK Concert for SPEED/GEAR combined with TST 329 for RPM

Seat Exciters = 6 for various effects detailing.
Additional units like Earthquake TBC if will be used.

 

[FireWithin]

When my own rig is at the point with the tactile re-installed. I will delve deeper into comparing both BKs to the Earthquake in a more detailed set of tests.

I cannot say one unit immediately stood out to be much better than the other.
Is it partly marketing, maybe but when using the NX3000D you can easily tune each unit to offer more or less output for specific frequencies.

In my experience for what we are doing, the BK partner best with units like the TST 329 or TST 429 if seeking best performance but at high costs. However the 209 or 329 can be used to work well from 30ish Hz but are better than BK over 60Hz and well beyond that.

Pairing a large BK with a small BK is not so good at all as you then are still restricted by the limited output over 60Hz. You want want gives the best over the full 200Hz. So the Exciters and the TST units can bring their own certain advantages, other units do not bring.

I have reduced what my own rig will use, removing 2 BK from the previous configuration:

Here is the current plan
Corners = 4x BK LFE combined with 4x TST 429 for corner based effects.
Stereo = 2x BK LFE for additional stereo effects representation
Mono Front = 1x BK Concert for SPEED/GEAR combined with TST 329
Mono Rear = 1x BK Concert for SPEED/GEAR combined with TST 329

Seat Exciters = 6
Additional units like Earthquake TBC if will be used.

Not alot of people will invest 10k in tactile / shaker equipment

 

[Mr Latte]

Not alot of people will invest 10k in tactile / shaker equipment

People ask for my views, my goals are different to others.
Yes I agree and I doubt anyone will emulate what I fully do.
.
Note, I did not buy all of my hardware new, made lots of savings but to bring what my own rig brings in audio equipment terms. If it all was new, then it's reaching closer to 15K.

 

[FireWithin]

People ask for my views, my goals are different to others.
Yes I agree and I doubt anyone will emulate what I fully do.
.
Note, I did not buy all of my hardware new, made lots of savings but to bring what my own rig brings in audio equipment terms. If it all was new, then it's reaching closer to 15K.

My guesstimate is close then all the tactile power to you !

 

[RacingMat]

Many thanks for your reply! that's solid info

So I was wondering "Throne Thumper + LFE" versus "Throne Thumper + Concert"
but now I understand I can go with "Throne Thumper + Clark Synthesis TST" as they are more complementary.

 

[Mr Latte]

Many thanks for your reply! that's solid info

So I was wondering "Throne Thumper + LFE" versus "Throne Thumper + Concert"
but now I understand I can go with "Throne Thumper + Clark Synthesis TST" as they are more complementary.

Well yes as it will give you better mid and high frequencies but............

The Pearl Throne Thumper is basically similar to a BK Gamer.
The difference is that it uses a BK Advance shaker.

Now if it's not CLEAR to people yet, take note as the BK Advance while still a decent upgrade over the BK Mini-series. It is about 3x less powerful than what the larger BK offers. Also what is important is being able to push the performance further and tune the unit using DSP. So the amp or how the audio is handled is important towards achieving the improved performance you get from it.

People often look at wattages for references in power output. Don't focus just on that, its part of marketing. What is important is how well these units manages to reach the lowest frequencies.

This is the role that suits Buttkickers best. A BK Advance will not get close to the felt output with the lowest frequencies that the largest units can manage. Your still missing out on a lot of possible felt sensations and energy with the lowest frequencies.

The additional weight and larger piston in the bigger units are what makes the difference. Being bigger and heavier it requires more wattage to move/operate.

I will confirm how well the Q10B Earthquake fairs in comparison. It's not as big and not as heavy but has more excursion. It can pump out the low single-digit Hz too. Yet its price is often much higher than large BK units so it is nowhere near as popular or recognised. They are however very hard to find on secondary markets like ebay which shows most people that do own them must be quite happy with them.

My guesstimate is close then all the tactile power to you !

Mmmmmm, errrrr, nope, as I haven't spent 10K either.
Yes indeed, what has been spent or purchased, won't be something others will do. Clearly my interest and goals with installing tactile for simrig purposes is different. Including building a whole custom-made rig from scratch around the tactile performance.

It is, explorative and a self-journey of learning as a tactile hobbyist.

 

[FireWithin]

Well yes as it will give you better mid and high frequencies but............

The Pearl Throne Thumper is basically similar to a BK Gamer.
The difference is that it uses a BK Advance shaker.

Now if it's not CLEAR to people yet, take note as the BK Advance while still a decent upgrade over the BK Mini-series. It is about 3x less powerful than what the larger BK offers. Also what is important is being able to push the performance further and tune the unit using DSP. So the amp or how the audio is handled is important towards achieving the improved performance you get from it.

People often look at wattages for references in power output. Don't focus just on that, its part of marketing. What is important is how well these units manages to reach the lowest frequencies.

This is the role that suits Buttkickers best. A BK Advance will not get close to the felt output with the lowest frequencies that the largest units can manage. Your still missing out on a lot of possible felt sensations and energy with the lowest frequencies.

The additional weight and larger piston in the bigger units are what makes the difference. Being bigger and heavier it requires more wattage to move/operate.

I will confirm how well the Q10B Earthquake fairs in comparison. It's not as big and not as heavy but has more excursion. It can pump out the low single-digit Hz too. Yet its price is often much higher than large BK units so it is nowhere near as popular or recognised. They are however very hard to find on secondary markets like ebay which shows most people that do own them must be quite happy with them.




Mmmmmm, errrrr, nope, as I haven't spent 10K either.
Yes indeed, what has been spent or purchased, won't be something others will do. Clearly my interest and goals with installing tactile for simrig purposes is different. Including building a whole custom-made rig from scratch around the tactile performance.

It is, explorative and a self-journey of learning as a tactile hobbyist.

There's never enough shake I paid full price for my large BK and amp (about 1000$ Canadian for both) but if I can find another large BK at a good price I will gladdly add it to my rig.

Do you have wind also?

 

[RacingMat]

People often look at wattages for references in power output.

it's not relevant (sadly)
for example, all the TST Clark Synthesis are 135W (entry and high level)

How do the products compare

This chart will show you how each of our products compares to one another. Click here to learn more about our transducers output!

clarksynthesis.com

 

[Mr Latte]

There's never enough shake I paid full price for my large BK and amp (about 1000$ Canadian for both) but if I can find another large BK at a good price I will gladdly add it to my rig.

Do you have wind also?

I might add wind but my focus with my build is on tactile but also audio too.
Sound can play a huge part of immersion but is so overlooked on most sim rigs.

One of the challenges of the build was incorporating not just all the tactile but two rather large multi-driver sound/projectors and 4 subwoofers.

The dual sound projectors have approx 80 mini 2" drivers and their output can be positioned to how it reflects within the room.

Now of course any game can benefit from this but I want engines to be thrilling, to capture that intensity real cars can generate. This is why all the audio encompasses the user sitting central witihin it based on the unique configuration I am applying.

 

[FireWithin]

I might add wind but my focus with my build is on tactile but also audio too.
Sound can play a huge part of immersion but is so overlooked on most sim rigs.

One of the challenges of the build was incorporating not just all the tactile but two rather large multi-driver sound/projectors and 4 subwoofers.

The dual sound projectors have approx 80 mini 2" drivers and their output can be positioned to how it reflects within the room.

Now of course any game can benefit from this but I want engines to be thrilling, to capture that intensity real cars can generate. This is why all the audio encompasses the user sitting central witihin it based on the unique configuration I am applying.

Totally agree with you about sound, If I would have the place for it I would do it in a heartbeat. Im in a condo with neighbors so this is out of questions, I'm limited to play with headphone and that's why I went with tactile headphone. Again, good for you !

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

Totally agree with you about sound, If I would have the place for it I would do it in a heartbeat. Im in a condo with neighbors so this is out of questions, I'm limited to play with headphone and that's why I went with tactile headphone. Again, good for you !

what tactile headset? Razer Nari Ultimate?