Please help me understand torque and how it is used in game

[Andy Muir]

tl;dr

If comparing a 5NM to a 20NM wheel, with the wheelbases and game set to be as immersive / lifelike / natural but still informative as possible, is it:

a) every detail simply 4 x weightier on the 20NM compared to the 5NM

or

b) the feel of the lighter details e.g. ripple strips (requiring 4NM to represent the effect) the same on both wheel bases but the harder hitters e.g. driving straight onto a curb (requireing 15NM impact force) limited to 1/3 strength, at the 5NM limit, on the 5NM wheel but felt at 100% full strength on the 20NM wheel?

or

c) something completely different or in between?


Hi

I have been using a G29 for well over 7 years and this weekend I upgraded to the MOZA R5 bundle with the brake upgrade. When I first started playing with the R5 I was pleasantly suprised. For instance I had never felt downforce in the F2004 in AC as it simply never registered in the G29. Also some car's steering wheel felt crazy heavy e.g. BMW M4. The base feels pretty strong and the feel is night and day compared to the G29.

However, although there is no way I could afford to get the R9 & wheel combo plus some pedals, I am getting some serious buyer's remorse for something I can't afford because most YouTuber's compare the R5's 5.5NM feedback to R9's 9NM, saying go for the R9 if you're serious. This wanting something I cant afford is pathetic I know.

BUT

Some videos show a graph and explain that for weaker effects, the R5 is totally fine but you will be missing out on the heavy hitter effects, the ones that might wrench the wheel out of your hand e.g. smacking into a wall of driving up a curb. All the others, where the resulting force is within the 5.5NM, you won't notice the difference.

If that's the case, then I don't care in the slightest; the idea is not to crash right?? And how often do you do a big jump in DR2.0?

So...

If comparing a 5NM to a 20NM wheel, with the wheelbases and game set to be as immersive / lifelike / natural but still informative as possible, is it:

a) every detail simply 4 x weightier on the 20NM compared to the 5NM

or

b) the feel of the lighter details e.g. ripple strips (requiring 4NM to represent the effect) the same on both wheel bases but the harder hitters e.g. driving straight onto a curb (requireing 15NM impact force) limited to 1/3 strength, at the 5NM limit, on the 5NM wheel but felt at 100% full strength on the 20NM wheel?

or

c) something in between?


If it is Option a, I think 5.5NM is pretty forceful, so what effects will I be missing out / losing detail on?

Thanks!

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Dynamic Range.
Check BM explanation why higher torque wheelbases provide better dynamic range.
Start with "Observations", but video should be timemarked

 

[BrightCandle]

Its more like option A really because if you run the wheel at 20nm output at peak everything is 4x heavier. One of the problems with a lighter torque is that you don't want the heavier movements to clip so you end up having the lighter details too light, you can't just crop the top off really because you loose all feel in those circumstances (which for a curb strike might not matter but will on a high speed corner). All the games effectively have a gain function that just scales all the outputs linearly like the volume of a speaker.

So what you really get with more torque is more range to play with so you can feel the big hits without clipping and still use it, whereas a ligher torque will either clip and limit the force and loose detail and you may have to compromise the lightest forces too to maintain feel for the heavier parts. I can overpower 8nm its not dragging my hands around or going to break my arms like a real steering rack would in a crash.

Saying that in software its possible to have this adjusted. Simucube has a dynamic range setting that can adjust this behaviour. I don't know if other bases do this, Fanatec doesn't currently.

Its also possible to do this in AC with the CSP mod, it has a range compression setting and it includes a real steering forces to wheel settings and a wheel max torque setting so for cars that support that physics can scale output based on the vehicle. Some vehicles would fit within a 5-10nm wheel but some wouldn't, I really have no idea how many cars support this in AC, I tend not to use it as I feel them just fine with my 8nm. I imagine in the future more games will consider doing this and iRacing captures that information too for its FFB but I don't think it really uses it yet in that way but it could.

I will add I run my 8nm wheel at 100% all the time. I do sometimes scale games down a bit when their holding force is too high so I am not using all of it but in games like AC I tend to use the entire range. Many of the youtubers settle around 12-14nm as their peak torque usage but they are also playing multiple races and may be doing very long sessions and do not want tired arms.

 

[RasmusP]

From my experience (G27, two weeks TS-PC (5 Nm), 4 years CSW 2.5 (8 Nm) and now a few months Moza R12 with quite some hours on a Simucube 2 pro):
Your 5.5 Nm are fine!
More torque basically just slaps the details into your face.
The important thing is to not have clipping while driving normally. So you don't want the ffb meter in AC (the gray bar in the pedals app) to hit 100% too much in corner like Eau Rouge at Spa.
However kerbs and especially sausage kerbs are fine to clip. You don't really get details about the grip level there..

For AC, with standard Kunos cars (like the F2004 or BMW Z4 GT3 etc), a gain level of 65% is the maximum before you're starting to get a loss of information.

With a G27/29, 65% gain is too weak to enjoy things. You simply won't really feel the car, the weight, the aero etc.
The Logitech wheels also have a lot of friction and turn too slow for easy drifting or catching slides.
The R5 in comparison will turn quick and swiftly, when you lower the damper and friction settings.
So you feel more things even at the same torque as a G27/29!

So basically:
If you're fine with 65% gain in AC and your R5 set to 100%, then you're good.

If you need more than 65% gain, a stronger wheelbase might be nice in the future.

If the R5 is strong enough, something like the R9 or R12 will simply slap you with information instead of you "sensing" it.
So it's a very individual thing. How sensitive and how strong you are.

It can be easier if the torque forces you to stay focused at higher speeds, because you simply won't be able to hold the wheel precisely, when the aero starts to really work.
But it's also totally fine if you can sense this without having to grip tightly and getting your arms shaken by the wheelbase

Many people simply enjoy having to really work the wheel. But it's not needed for enjoyment or to feel all the details!


The wheel size also makes a big difference due to leverage.
I guess you're using the small ES wheel that comes with the R5 bundle?
That's 28 cm and quite lightweight.
It's a great wheel, I have one myself.

With that wheel, I only used 4.8 Nm for Rally sims! (40% of 12 Nm).
However I'm now using a heavy 30 cm wheel and raised my Rally profile to 60% (7.2 Nm).

The Moza KS wheel would probably be fine due to its lightweight, but I wouldn't recommend something like the CS wheel with 33 cm!

 

[Andy Muir]

Hi all

Thanks you very much for you response with regard to helping me understand how torque is used within my DD wheel.

From my experience (G27, two weeks TS-PC (5 Nm), 4 years CSW 2.5 (8 Nm) and now a few months Moza R12 with quite some hours on a Simucube 2 pro):
Your 5.5 Nm are fine!
More torque basically just slaps the details into your face.
The important thing is to not have clipping while driving normally. So you don't want the ffb meter in AC (the gray bar in the pedals app) to hit 100% too much in corner like Eau Rouge at Spa.
However kerbs and especially sausage kerbs are fine to clip. You don't really get details about the grip level there..

For AC, with standard Kunos cars (like the F2004 or BMW Z4 GT3 etc), a gain level of 65% is the maximum before you're starting to get a loss of information.

With a G27/29, 65% gain is too weak to enjoy things. You simply won't really feel the car, the weight, the aero etc.
The Logitech wheels also have a lot of friction and turn too slow for easy drifting or catching slides.
The R5 in comparison will turn quick and swiftly, when you lower the damper and friction settings.
So you feel more things even at the same torque as a G27/29!

So basically:
If you're fine with 65% gain in AC and your R5 set to 100%, then you're good.

If you need more than 65% gain, a stronger wheelbase might be nice in the future.

If the R5 is strong enough, something like the R9 or R12 will simply slap you with information instead of you "sensing" it.
So it's a very individual thing. How sensitive and how strong you are.

It can be easier if the torque forces you to stay focused at higher speeds, because you simply won't be able to hold the wheel precisely, when the aero starts to really work.
But it's also totally fine if you can sense this without having to grip tightly and getting your arms shaken by the wheelbase

Many people simply enjoy having to really work the wheel. But it's not needed for enjoyment or to feel all the details!


The wheel size also makes a big difference due to leverage.
I guess you're using the small ES wheel that comes with the R5 bundle?
That's 28 cm and quite lightweight.
It's a great wheel, I have one myself.

With that wheel, I only used 4.8 Nm for Rally sims! (40% of 12 Nm).
However I'm now using a heavy 30 cm wheel and raised my Rally profile to 60% (7.2 Nm).

The Moza KS wheel would probably be fine due to its lightweight, but I wouldn't recommend something like the CS wheel with 33 cm!

That was really helpful thanks! And reasuring.

I am loving the feel of the DD. I do think I would like something a little more powerful. Despite just coming from a G29!

Thanks for you suggestion for dialing in the wheel using my absolute favourite corner in Spa. It was a pleasure restarting and pushing through those bends just to adjust the FFB and I completely concur with your setting of 65%.

What was also interesting was your Rally settings, it sounds like for DR2.0(?), which I am loving btw, if that was your only game, you'd be happy with the R5 wheelbase?

Now I have felt the DD feedback, as Oliver Twist says, I want moaar!

Looking at the connection points, it looks like the newer wheelbases are all compatible with the wheel that was bundled so I think I will save up for the R12. (I am assuming my SR-P lite pedals are compatible with the R12!)

Many thanks again for your reassuring comments RasmusP.
Any highlights in AC or DR2.0 (if you play that one) you would recommend?

All the best!

 

[RasmusP]

What was also interesting was your Rally settings, it sounds like for DR2.0(?), which I am loving btw, if that was your only game, you'd be happy with the R5 wheelbase?

Yes, absolutely!
When I got the R12, I wasn't that convinced to keep it, since my Fanatec CSW 2.5 was totally fine, I barely used 100% wheelbase strength.
But I wanted a new open wheel and round rim and didn't like the uni hub.
So I could've either bought a podium hub and just use it as a quick release and to make the wheelbase work + buy a rim and buttonplate OR I could sell it and buy something else.

So to make sure the R12 would be the right choice, I've tested everything I had:
AC, ACC, rF2, Dirt Rallye 1 + 2.0 and WRC 9.
I then bought WRC 10 and Generations and thought I'd refund them, if I didn't like them.

In AC, ACC and rF2, the 12 Nm can be great. You really have to fight the car, while feeling the grip very pronounced. I don't drive better than with just 5-6 Nm, but it's a cool experience if your rig can hold it (I only have a F-GT Lite, but it works fine. I wouldn't recommend the R12 on a wheelstand or desk at full power).

However in all the Rallye sims, the ffb is almost dead when driving straight with massive punches when approaching corners.
I remembered why I stopped driving them with my csw 2.5...

So Moza has this cool ffb curve setting, which I played around with and ended up boosting the low forces a lot, while lowering higher forces also a lot.
I basically squeezed 5-80% ffb into being 30-50%. No clipping, but nothing like the original ffb output.

I then lowered the wheelbase strength until it felt good, which was around 50% of the 12 Nm.

I'll send you the ffb curves and settings for Dirt Rally 2.0 in the next days. My rig is currently stuffed away.

But yeah, the R5 would be fine for me for anything with Rallying and drifting. Only for racing sims on tarmac, I'd like 8-12 Nm.

Now I have felt the DD feedback, as Oliver Twist says, I want moaar!

Hehe yeah, I totally get that! But it's not really that you've felt the DD feedback. It's just that you've felt a strong enough wheelbase to give you a sense of the dynamics of the grip levels combined with the fast rotation speeds.
A Thrustmaster TS-PC would do the same, but louder and less smooth.
I got that one before my CSW 2.5 but sent it back due to coil wine in two different units.
It was a massive eye-opener!

However if you really want to satisfy the "Mooaarr", save up for the R12.
It can rip the little ES wheel out of your hand and show you who's the boss.
I love that. But do I need this to have massive fun? Nope, absolutely not.

I just read about overheating issues with the R9 and the R12 was the new and fancy DD from Moza, so I thought I'd just buy it to never need more.

Looking at the connection points, it looks like the newer wheelbases are all compatible with the wheel that was bundled so I think I will save up for the R12. (I am assuming my SR-P lite pedals are compatible with the R12!)

Yep, the R12 will happily take your pedals, shifter etc
Only the older wheels that now have a "v2" won't work with the R12 since they are using some wireless connection.

Any highlights in AC or DR2.0 (if you play that one) you would recommend?

That's difficult to answer. I'll come back to you about this.
But spontaneously:
Union Island and all Fat-Alfie tracks are awesome.
And I love the not-Lamborghini from the RSS GT1 pack. Put the power diff to minimum in the setup and it's a controllable crazy power house

For DR 2.0 it's more difficult since I didn't play it that much.
I like the slower, lightweight cars in the mud that drift at low speeds. Making everything nice and controlled, while drifting a lot.
But I can't name a stage or car. I'll have to look them up.

 

[Andy Muir]

Blimey.

Quite a mission but you blatently ending up KNOWING you had made the right choice. I am way too impulsive.

So to make sure the R12 would be the right choice, I've tested everything I had:
AC, ACC, rF2, Dirt Rallye 1 + 2.0 and WRC 9.

DR 1??
I didn't think that worked? I prefer DR1 because I can run that in VR with the grass on but literally just uninstalled it (like this morning!) because it didn't recognise my wheel, just saying controller. I thought I would never DR ever again without the DD.

However in all the Rallye sims, the ffb is almost dead when driving straight with massive punches when approaching corners.
I remembered why I stopped driving them with my csw 2.5...

I love that feel of the car swinging me around the corners! It's another thing I didn't really get the true sensation in the G29. Saying that I would get some great details, such as the Stratos (what an animal!) purchasing grip when sliding onto tarmac but it is so much more pronounced with a DD. Brilliant!

I'll send you the ffb curves and settings for Dirt Rally 2.0 in the next days. My rig is currently stuffed away.

Yes please!

However if you really want to satisfy the "Mooaarr", save up for the R12.
It can rip the little ES wheel out of your hand and show you who's the boss.
I love that. But do I need this to have massive fun? Nope, absolutely not.

Yeah, thanks. I think you are right. It is also the logical end of the upgrade path as I only have a wheel stand and don't have room for anything static so as you say it's the absolute max my hardware can handle. Anything less would leave me wanting more.

I can't believe how much I am enjoying the DD. I am looking forward to calming down and stop 'just seeing what DD will feel like in [INSERT SIM]' and settle into one before moving onto the next.

Thanks again and all the best!

 

[Andy Muir]

More torque basically just slaps the details into your face.
The important thing is to not have clipping while driving normally. So you don't want the ffb meter in AC (the gray bar in the pedals app) to hit 100% too much in corner like Eau Rouge at Spa.
However kerbs and especially sausage kerbs are fine to clip. You don't really get details about the grip level there..

For AC, with standard Kunos cars (like the F2004 or BMW Z4 GT3 etc), a gain level of 65% is the maximum before you're starting to get a loss of information.

Hi @RasmusP

I pulled the plug and have got a brand spanking new R12 and she's an animal. I just needed the torque! My wheelstand is doing a stand up job but I wouldn't want to push it further so the R12 is the end of the upgrade path for the wheelbase which believe it or not is great news.

I'm now deep in the tweaking phase. And being still very new to DD, I am not sure how tolerant to be with the clipping. For instance, for the ffb not to clip at all at Spa, I need to lower the slider to 50% in AC's settings (100% in both intensity and peak settings in the PH software) . Any higher and I get blips of red at Eau Rouge. At 65% I get more solid reds at Eau Rouge and the long bends through [checks map] Blanchimont a flicker through Double Gauche. The rest of the track is clip free and Side Kick never warns me to turn ffb down. Is this pretty standard? I think I know what is going on with the car at these bends, it still feels like there is more stuff going on in the ffb than just resistance. Could that just be because I am also hearing the tire sounds? Don't know.

Dude, if you have the time and don't mind, would it be possible to share your ffb settings for AC and if possible DR2.0? I think with AC you and I enjoy the same car and track combo (F2004 @ Spa) so basing the settings off the F2004 would be really helpful.

Thanks and all the best!

 

[RasmusP]

Lol, awesome

Your reports all make sense! A bit of flickering red isn't bad though, you just don't get the full strength of the very small peaks. The important bit is that it's not a constant red, as that would mean that you can't feel the grip level.
But as long as it's bouncing on/off the red, it's totally fine.

I sadly won't be able to connect my wheelbase to the pc until next Wednesday and Pithouse doesn't show the settings without it running.
But I've set my an alarm for Wednesday and will send you everything then

 

[Andy Muir]

Yeah, you said you were without your wheelbase for a bit. How are you coping? Only four more sleeps until you're reunited.

Thanks for setting that alarm! I'm looking forward to and curious to see how you set your wheel.

All the best!

 

[RasmusP]

Yeah, you said you were without your wheelbase for a bit. How are you coping? Only four more sleeps until you're reunited.

Thanks for setting that alarm! I'm looking forward to and curious to see how you set your wheel.

All the best!

I'm just having multiple deadlines and don't dare to unfold my rig (F-GT Lite) until they're done

But I give it a little pat on its head when I walk past it on the way to my PC