Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

[RCHeliguy]

They tease....

They used to send me an email with a link to a live map showing where the truck was, but the main UPS distribution center is only a few miles away. So the only reason to bring that map up was be be frustrated as the truck would come within half a mile of my house and then turn around

goosfraba...
goosfraba...

 

[EsxPaul]

Where would you place the 8?
top back, middle back, lower back, side lower back, side shoulder ?

I wouldn't say there are any hard rules for placement. I experimented by temporarily mounting one exiter on all areas of the seat to see what felt the strongest/best to me. I settled with one pair behind my shoulder blades and one pair under my hamstrings, just above the knees as they were the areas where my body contacted the firmest against the seat.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

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[Deleted member 1451080]

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[RCHeliguy]

Yes, a real harness isn't cheap, but I am extremely happy with this purchase.

The buckles take no effort to come loose and cinch tight very easily too and they absolutely do not come loose This is night and day better. It's like they are actually designed with the expectation that they would be loosened and tightened normally! Go figure!

The 6 point anti-submarine belts are definitely more comfortable than 5 point. It still pulls a bit on the crotch, but it is at least to the sides and my G-Belt has a solid anchor to pull against.

The Crow belts are nice for the G-Belt because the buckle and metal endpoint loosen and slide right off.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Yes, a real harness isn't cheap, but I am extremely happy with this purchase.

The buckles take no effort to come loose and cinch tight very easily too and they absolutely do not come loose This is night and day better. It's like they are actually designed with the expectation that they would be loosened and tightened normally! Go figure!

The 6 point anti-submarine belts are definitely more comfortable than 5 point. It still pulls a bit on the crotch, but it is at least to the sides and my G-Belt has a solid anchor to pull against.

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The Crow belts are nice for the G-Belt because the buckle and metal endpoint loosen and slide right off.
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Strictly speaking, those sub belts should feed back though the same openings as the lap belts....not thought the sub-belt opening in the seat pan.

You should be sitting on the sub belts.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Strictly speaking, those sub belts should feed back though the same openings as the lap belts....not thought the sub-belt opening in the seat pan.

You should be sitting on the sub belts.

Good to know. I'll have to try that out.

I'm curious how that will change the G-Belt effects since you would feel the tension on your shoulders and on your legs.

That would also make the adjustment straps more accessible.

Having complete control over where the lap belt buckles are located I is a nice feature and keeps the buckles out of the seat area.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@Tom_Hampton, Thanks!

This is definitely more comfortable then coming up through the bottom slot and they are much easier to adjust mounted on the sides. The underside of my legs have more give than the more solid anchor coming up through the center, but it is far more comfortable.

How high is the buckle normally, or is that just a personal preference?

 

[stigs2cousin]

I´ve reesearched the crotch belt topic a little, the Schroth assembly instructions demand the "wrap around"only for a formula seating position so that the "laid back" driver doesn´t slide out of the seat.
With GT and TC back rest angles the belt have to use the front slots.
As Mark is ( hopefully) not to experience any impacts in his rig the question remains what feels more comfortable, but also what makes the belt tensioner work best.
When using the " wrap around the thighs" mounting I´d imagine the tensioner can pull up the lap belts and the buckle quite a bit.
Personally I´d rather have all the pressure on the shoulders than the sliding feeling and pressure on the thighs.

Will be interesting what Mark discerns to be best.

Happy testing, Carsten

 

[RCHeliguy]

Carsten,

I just finished a bit of testing. These are just my initial thoughts. So far this harness feels like it is all upside.

1. This harness is much easier to get into because it snaps together loose and then cinches tight with minimal effort.

Compared with: My last belt had to be pretensioned and was a bit of a pain to clip in with occasional half clicks where the buckle would latch before I got a clip in and require that I open the buckle and start over.

2. It is much easier to cinch these belts very tight and they absolutely hold fast. So far I'm not feeling any creeping of the belt which is a very big deal! So I get a very consistent feel lap after lap.

Compared with: My last belt had to be adjusted first and would slowly loosen over the course of a race.

3. The around the thigh mount is so much more comfortable than through the center I don't know if I could ever go back for that reason alone. This may have to do with the position of the bottom slot on my seat.

Compared with: My last 5 point arrangement always had some pressure on me where I didn't want it.

Compared with: 6 point bottom slot arrangement. It still felt like this arrangement was the pulling in at the sides of my crotch, but it didn't have direct pressure. So it was better than the 5 point arrangement.

Conclusion: I can tell that there is more give with the anti-submarine belts using the around the thigh method, but the fact that I can get these belts snug and they stay snug gives me better brake feel than I had with my last harness, so I think in this case I'm willing to make this compromise for comfort. I'm still getting very good feedback from the G-Belt


Additional Testing: I'm not sure if the anti-submarine belts under my thighs are actually giving me any additional G-Belt feedback over a tight 4 point arrangement, and I may just be enjoying the fact that these cinch up so well.

1. I will test to see if I'm actually getting anything out of the anti-submarine belts.
2. I understand this is a compromise. So it is likely that I will continue to experiment a bit and see if I can get a more comfortable front anchor.

The bottom line is that I will use my rig more if I'm not in pain.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Let me expand on that whole pain and convenience issue, and the trickledown from it.

My last harness actually put me off my rig a bit. It was cumbersome to put on, had buckles just inside the seat openings that could dig into me if I was driving for any length of time, the 5th point wasn't comfortable either and it wouldn't hold tight. On top of that the webbing was also stiff and the buckles were very hard to adjust.

I never had anyone else over to use my rig while I had that belt on my rig. Getting it correctly adjusted would have been too big an ordeal to both with.

I don't know why I wasn't actively looking for a replacement, but this harness is such an excellent fit for me and my rig! Let me express my appreciation again for the Crow harness recommendation from @Tom_Hampton.

I will go back to enjoying everything about my rig now, and I'll be happy to have other people try it out

FYI, I ordered additional sizes of Karting gloves for the guests we will have over for Thanksgiving. I'm looking forward to seeing their reaction driving it. I especially want to see how my nephew who just got a his driving learners permit will react.

If it turns out that the anti-submarine belts on the sides are not doing much, I may just remove them for the Thanksgiving Holiday to make things a bit easier on everyone.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

This is definitely more comfortable then coming up through the bottom slot and they are much easier to adjust mounted on the sides. The underside of my legs have more give than the more solid anchor coming up through the center, but it is far more comfortable.

How high is the buckle normally, or is that just a personal preference?

I'm assuming you are referring to the primary harness latch. In a real racecar the lap belt would be down as low as possible, as it is imperative that the belt ride against the hip bones (iliac crest) in order to restrain the body by its hard points in a crash. When I strap in, I work pretty hard to pull the lap belt down, and tighten the adjusters as much as possible. I use both legs against the firewall to press my body into the seat bucket, and then tighten the belt adjusters---Its easier with help. But, I'm also fighting a fire suit. Thus, the latch would likewise be down very low...well below the waist.

The primary purpose of the sub belts is to restrain the lap belt from riding up and over the hip bones and allowing the crash load to be taken by your kidney, and other soft squishy bits. So similarly, I set these up very tight. These are non-adjustable once in the car...so, getting then buckled in, can also be a challenge. Again, its useful to have help...but, I can do it on my own.

I say all that to give perspective on how these belts fit in a real safety situation. T.I.G.H.T.

Obviously that's not a significant concern on your rig. So, comfort and functionally how well the belts are transmitting the tensioning forces should guide your choices.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

I´ve reesearched the crotch belt topic a little, the Schroth assembly instructions demand the "wrap around"only for a formula seating position so that the "laid back" driver doesn´t slide out of the seat.
With GT and TC back rest angles the belt have to use the front slots.

While its true that Schroth specifically discourages the use if the Profi-F harnesses in upright configurations, the under thigh sub-belt routing is specifically allowed by racing organizations, and other belt manufacturers. Schroth doesn't provide a rationale for their position...which is odd because they do for pretty much everything else.

Also, note that other belt OEMs have 7-point configurations which are basically a Profi-F type of harness with a center sub-belt similar to that seen in 5-pt harnesses. This is often called a negative-G sub-belt---its purpose is to pre-tension the shoulder harnesses and ensure the lap belt does not ride up over the hips. Unlike the 5-pt configuration, however, the negative-G sub does not impart crash load to the groin (the major issue with 5-pt systems), as the 6-pt belts passing under the thighs take that load.

Note: I specifically run almost the exact same Harness in my racecar (just a 10 year older model...with new webbing of course), sanctioned with Log Book by USA National Auto Sports Association, and Sports Car Club of America.

All this is still rather OT for a simrig.

 

[RCHeliguy]

All this is still rather OT for a simrig.

Maybe so, but I found it interesting and it is more on topic than some other discussions in this thread.

I felt like I learned something today

 

[stigs2cousin]

The primary purpose of the sub belts is to restrain the lap belt from riding up and over the hip bones and allowing the crash load to be taken by your kidney, and other soft squishy bits. So similarly, I set these up very tight. These are non-adjustable once in the car...so, getting then buckled in, can also be a challenge. Again, its useful to have help...but, I can do it on my own.

Exactly what I was told and what makes sense in crash kinematics(irl cars)

I also concurre to your statement that on a simrig the immersion and transmission of tactile cues side is the import part.
Maybe when I´m done with my heelplate/pedals and seat tactile I´ll tackle the whole harness tightening thingy.
Though that would be a mayor pita because my seat doesnt have belt holes.....

Mark, thanks for the update, you and your guests enjoy

MFG Carsten

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Conclusion: I can tell that there is more give with the anti-submarine belts using the around the thigh method, but the fact that I can get these belts snug and they stay snug gives me better brake feel than I had with my last harness, so I think in this case I'm willing to make this compromise for comfort. I'm still getting very good feedback from the G-Belt

When I'm on the track, the primary location of braking sensation for me on-track is actually in the sub belt, more-so that the shoulders. My Miata on racing slicks can decel at nearly 2g---my whole body is "suspended" horizontally by the harness, and it feels very similar to hanging from a climbing harness. Its certainly not a "shoulders only" sensation.

To that end, when I get my wife out of my future man-cave....my plan is to implement upper AND lower belt tensioners one for each mounting point: left/right shoulder, and left/right lap+sub.

The key to driving through that IRL, is to relax and let your body "hang" and concentrate on the controls. Don't resist / fight the forces. Same thing goes for lateral. You just let your body rest against the side of the bucket.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

Exactly what I was told and what makes sense in crash kinematics(irl cars)

Wait...where do you get to take a crash kinematics course? How do I sign up?

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

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[RCHeliguy]

I'm glad that Virpil is starting to take care of helicopter Sims. I'm sure the recent Hind and upcoming AH-64 may have helped push them this way. The Shark is my least favorite of the DCS helicopters.

I have a couple people with Karting experience coming over to try out my rig. I'd like to get some video of them driving if they don't have any issues. One guy looks like he can't weigh 130lbs. I'm sure that helps with the lightweight Karts. I'm sure my extra 50lbs of weight would put me at a disadvantage. Plus he's shorter so better CG

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

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