Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

[Elaphe]

The best bang for buck motion solution is still the V3 seat mover, I think. Honestly I've said it a thousand times now but spending that money, not even all of it but some of it, on a nice tactile system, TST and large BK units, with appropriate amps is the way to go, coupled with a seat belt tension system of which there are a few choices. It's a wonderful overall package that gives so much feeling and almost none of the issues that motion systems can be known for. I much prefer having my cockpit stationary and having everything happen around me, rather than being moved around while trying to place my car correctly on the race track. I know real drivers deal with forces and movement but I think most would agree that the movement provided by most motion systems can be far different from what you feel in a rigid race car chassis.

On the unit, though. It's very clean, looks to be easy to mount on pretty much anything with a flat bottom and the software is very good from what I remember when using the V3. So that's all good. I still think that the total cost of $10K+ USD for the 2 platforms and the V3 itself is a bit high compared to what you can get elsewhere though.

Completelly agree. The problem with seat movers is the same problem of VR: it doesn't look right for showing off in videos.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Completely agree. The problem with seat movers is the same problem of VR: it doesn't look right for showing off in videos.

Agreed.

For a mobile rig, VR and a seat mover allow me to keep everything compact and very easy to move around the room. If I were streaming races, I would have different constraints.

Personally I don't want to be beaten up on my rig. I saw one guy's video of his 6 DOF rig where he looked like he was enduring a torture test that would jar his teeth loose. Obviously all motion systems are customizable and can be toned down, but this is what he wanted to show off in a video and people see that and think they need that.

I have my NLRv3 motion turned down quite a bit on the track and it works beautifully and feels like a natural extension of the tactile, FFB, and G-Belt. The key is that everything works well together and feels right. Obviously when I say feels "right", I don't mean that it is even remotely simulate the forces you get on a race track in a real car. But in VR it all adds up to an incredibly immersive experience that sucks you in and tricks your brain into thinking you are in the virtual car you are driving.

Once you hit that point in immersion, as long as what you are feeling doesn't give you cues that misinform your driving, you learn to interpret what you feel and use that information to help you drive or enjoy the experience more.

At this point I am interested in the next generation of VR headsets, but I have ZERO interested in a 6DOF motion rig even if I had the room for one.

 

[Peter Winkler]

and feels like a natural extension of the tactile

made my day - THANKS

 

[Elaphe]

Agreed.

For a mobile rig, VR and a seat mover allow me to keep everything compact and very easy to move around the room. If I were streaming races, I would have different constraints.

Personally I don't want to be beaten up on my rig. I saw one guy's video of his 6 DOF rig where he looked like he was enduring a torture test that would jar his teeth loose. Obviously all motion systems are customizable and can be toned down, but this is what he wanted to show off in a video and people see that and think they need that.

I have my NLRv3 motion turned down quite a bit on the track and it works beautifully and feels like a natural extension of the tactile, FFB, and G-Belt. The key is that everything works well together and feels right. Obviously when I say feels "right", I don't mean that it is even remotely simulate the forces you get on a race track in a real car. But in VR it all adds up to an incredibly immersive experience that sucks you in and tricks your brain into thinking you are in the virtual car you are driving.

Once you hit that point in immersion, as long as what you are feeling doesn't give you cues that misinform your driving, you learn to interpret what you feel and use that information to help you drive or enjoy the experience more.

At this point I am interested in the next generation of VR headsets, but I have ZERO interested in a 6DOF motion rig even if I had the room for one.

Again I agree. I am very happy with my NJMotion Compact R base. It adds the correct level of motion, with short, precise and lag-free movements, just to make the experience more realistic without anything that feels strange or exagerated. And the best of all is that is quick and easy to install and you don't have to worry about heavy and noisy motors holding 1 ton of weight on top. The next step for better innmersion with my rig will be a new VR headset with way more FOV than my Rift S, if that is ever released.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I think this brings up the priority list for a rig expenditures and this perspective unavoidably changes over time as you get used to things and go in different directions.

Below are the priorities that I would see when building a new rig.

1. Solid chassis to build on, but flexible to grow with you. (SimLab or equivalent 8020 solution )
2. Consistent load cell brakes.
3. Good FFB Steering
4. Good display ( triples / VR ) and strong enough PC to drive everything.
5. Comfortable supportive seat

I would call these first 5 items minimum hardware for a good racing experience.

6. Good Tactile System
7. Seat belt tensioning system.

I would call these next 2 items dramatic improvements in immersion.

8. Motion

I think motion adds, but I don't consider this critical for track racing. For Rally and flight it does make a much larger difference.

Now let's compare that to what I actually did.

_________________________________________
At the time there was no G-Belt and RaceBass was still a gleam in Mr. Latte's eye and I knew absolutely NOTHING about sim rigs.

The beginning:

Complete Fanatec Club sport group ( I thought they were cool looking controls )
On a Wheelstand pro ( thought I could keep it upstairs and fold it when not using it )
Oculus Rift and PC
folding chair ( yeah.. I know )

First minor iteration:

Got a seat out of a wrecked Passat $40 ( the folding chair sucked!)
tried to fortify the Wheelsand pro ( still pretty whimpy )
Moved to the basement
Added minor tactile system using SimVibe.
Mostly playing Dirty Rally 1.0 and having people over get nauseous!

Stuck with that for a while. I had a pretty nice flight setup and spent most of my time in Eve Valkyrie.

__________________________________________

A year later... We can rebuild it and make it stronger, more powerful, more expensive!

SimLab P1
NLRv3
Button Box
Moved to SimHub for tactile.

The solid frame made a huge difference and all my controls felt better. Braking especially, but the FFB was better and it was great having a solid mount of the H pattern shift and hand brake.

I thought motion would be a big deal so I went in that direction first and for my guests it was. Their nausea in VR went down quite a bit. I updated my tactile a bit.

Next Control upgrades:

HE Sprints, Hand brake, sequential shift
ProSim H-pattern shift
SC2 Pro - DD wheelbase

The order I was going in made some sense, although many would question the very expensive H pattern shifter, and I would agree with them and consider that an outlier in terms of priorities.

While I no longer had any Fanatec gear left, other than the hand brake every other piece of Fanatec hardware worked well for me and is still being used by my son.
NLR Prisma seat

After getting used to higher brake pressure I started to get back pain with my car seat out of a wreck. The Prisma has been excellent and I've never had back pain with it. FWIW the vast majority of Prisma owners feel the same way, and surprisingly the more expensive Sparco seats do not seem to get as high praise for long session comfort ( on average ). Some people love them, but I hear very few comfort complaints with the Prisma.

________________________

Then I futzed with things, inverted my pedals, made prettier metal mounts, created my first custom button box and later a 3D printed button box.

_________________________
This brings me to where I am today.

Upgraded my tactile until is was a Race Bass configuration
Added a G-Belt
Turned down my NLRv3 motion.

Early on I remarked that people find direct drive steering and motion sexy and I've seen some very elaborate motion systems with Thrustmaster controls on them and people with DD steering who have poor pedals. To me that is upside down, but these are all toys and people should do whatever works for them.

 

[RCHeliguy]

BIG NOTE
I don't see many people actually buying their end game equipment in a logical piecewise manner for many reasons. Mostly they are not far enough along the journey to make those kinds of decisions.

Hindsight recommendations tend to be here is how I would build what I have right now.

What happens is people buy something that they think is "good enough" to find out if they like sim racing. There may be some emotional purchases based on what looks cool, but overall there is still some testing the waters, finding out what they care about and over time they buy things based on this journey.

Over time what a person is willing to spend tends to change as well and that puts a new perspective on everything.

So I am in no way suggesting that people can or should buy an end game rig to start with. There is no way that it ever makes sense.

 

[Peter Winkler]

you forgot the 3D Printer

 

[RCHeliguy]

you forgot the 3D Printer

I also didn't mention metal working equipment, but I suspect "most" out there are going with OOB solutions. My build is all sorts of off the beaten path.

 

[blekenbleu]

when I say feels "right", I don't mean that it is even remotely simulate the forces you get on a race track in a real car.

This. My theory is that, since real track G forces are not duplicated, then simulating other feedback full scale is disproportionate. I guess that may be why "real racers" who try enthusiast sim rigs
reportedly prefer them without chassis motion.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Finally got all the endmills I was waiting for!
Sadly I'll be working all weekend. Hopefully I can get some time to use them soon.

 

[RCHeliguy]

This. My theory is that, since real track G forces are not duplicated, then simulating other feedback full scale is disproportionate. I guess that may be why "real racers" who try enthusiast sim rigs
reportedly prefer them without chassis motion.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately.

I'm sure for someone who spends a lot of time in a real race car that sim motion inputs are confusing or even disorienting. What they are seeing on the screen or in VR does not match what they have experienced, so having nothing is far easier to deal with.

Many sim racers live by whatever feels good is good and if you are able to get feedback of any kind ( FFB, tactile, Pressure(G-Belt, G-Seat, etc), and motion ), over time you will become accustomed to that feedback and learn to use it. If you don't have reality confusing you when you are on your sim, why not?

I do think motion adds enough in VR to make it worth having. The most obvious thing I noticed early on was that when I added my NLRv3 to my rig, my visitors had MUCH less of an issue with nausea. So I think I would leave it there for that reason alone.

For rally and flight I don't think tactile alone is enough. Motion sells the Rally experience much better when you are on rough roads with ruts and even more so if you go airborne especially on landing.

For flight, tactile is helpful, but the available tactile software for flight is mostly for triggered effects with only motion being based on telemetry data from flight. Just sit in a helicopter in DCS and move your collective stick to see how much of a difference motion can make.

However when on a track, I think I could be absolutely happy without motion as long as I kept my FFB, tactile system and G-Belt.

I think this could be disruptive to the motion market. Some people like @anton_Chez, who had two motion systems and no longer wants a motion system may be an indicator of how more people will go. I know that I, like many others, had been lusting after having a 4,5,6 DOF motion systems for many years. Now I'm not even interested.

 

[anton_Chez]

Good points made. I think that until people try it out for themselves, and also encounter issues that I did, they will always feel that motion is the next great achievement to add to their rigs. I know that's how I looked at it before I bought the V3. I actually loved the V3. The SFX project put me off motion for the most part, for various reasons. I'm sure that if my experience was slightly different, I'd still want to keep motion as part of my rig. But with the other things that I've added to it, after I removed the motion, it's not a thought in my mind at all anymore. G-Belt and a really good tactile system, even if it's only 1 large unit with ample power and really good Simhub effect profiles, adds a sustantial amount of immersion and information to the driving experience. Reliability is very important in sim racing especially when you're in a competitive environment. Tonight I had a V8 supercars endurance event. I was in the rig for nearly 4 hours. Not a single thing failed, glitched, disconnected, dropped out, nothing. Same experience start to end.

I'm also completely broken typing this. I do NOT recommend

 

[RCHeliguy]

You need a training schedule before embarking on races like that!

 

[anton_Chez]

Well I made sure I didn't train that day. I could have, but I pushed my sessions back to Monday & Tuesday knowing that I'd already be hammered after finishing that. Heel toe shifting a V8 supercar is fun for 15 minutes, but brutal for 2 hours. Needed around 5 hours recovery time before I could even think about going to bed. Body was too sore.

 

[OlaGB]

Absolutly agree Mark, and it’s not ‘this vs that’ , but more what you want out of the experience, and what spesific things triggers youre interest and exitement.

And the reason most paid sim racers doesnt run motion (or big tactile), is most likely that it disturbs them more than it helps them hitting their max pace.
I couldnt care less, i’m in It to have fun.

I’ve got no problem to say motion is’nt for everyone, even though i’m one of those who would have a hard time without it now. (And i’m running triples only).

Agree that rally really makes motion shine, but so does also Nurburgring, and many other tracks that has elevation changes and a bit bumpy surface.

My tactile system is getting into a high-ish level now, and i do see how many would be OK loosing motion and keep a high end tactile only.
It really is good when done right.

But not for me, i want it all joined together Motion, belt and tactile.
Could i do with just motion and no tactile units? Yes. I would even choose it before tactile, since it can do both to some degree.
But the combination is what makes me really enjoy myself to the max when i drive.

In my case the motion system is just working and never skips a beat. Ever.
No need to adjust settings more than maaybe a tick here and there every other week, and it auto updates.
My tactile is always under adjustments (by choice), moving stuff around, updating profiles etc. But this is a hobby of more than just driving, i enjoy both the tech side and the driving, and are happy to put in the hours. And it’s really fun to learn new stuff!

I enjoy reading your thread, and i’ve learned alot from it, so keep on the good work!

 

[RCHeliguy]

I think there are a lot of problems with people declaring that there is only ONE path that is the right path especially when people's opinions and the technology changes over time.

When I first set up my P1 rig I put motion in it as a high priority. I don't regret that purchase, and while I still enjoy what it adds, over time it have fallen to a back row in the symphony. However, it was a plug and play solution. Drop the NLRv3 in, bolt a seat on, give it power and a USB connection to the computer and tweak the motion sliders to taste and go. That's pretty damn simple and at the time it was an easy upgrade to handle. It's proven to be highly reliable and I haven't messed with it other than occasionally downloading new software/firmware to drive it. It has no EMI issues, no whining and no bulky actuator controller rack. So for my mobile rig, it has remained a very good fit.

I had many people trying to convince me to buy one of the industrial motor direct direct wheel base systems which to my taste were ugly, bulky and not something I wanted on my rig. Then the SC2 models were introduced, I waited for the second production run and got one. My initial thoughts were that it was not a night and day improvement and that I thought too many people were upgrading to direct drive just because it looked cool. Later on when I got some really good profiles for it, I became more of a believer in how good a DD wheelbase could be.

So I went from "not for me" to "meh" to "very nice" and I did not get to feeling my SC2 Pro was very worthwhile until I owned it for a while. When Granite State put out online profiles last summer that I could just click on and try until I found the one for each title that I really liked. Some people dove in and learned to tweak all the settings themselves. I never invested that time and the hardware I had was only potential that was not realized.. But after other people invested the time and shared their work, I was very happy.

The G-Belt was a similar experience to the NLRv3. I mounted it, tweaked a few settings and have enjoyed it ever since. In hindsight I would have added this first were it available then, but it was not.

My tactile journey was incremental. I piddled with it for a while and had "meh" results that I tweaked and tweaked over time and thought were good enough. I didn't place much importance on it. Mr. Latte repeatedly asked me to take things to the next level, but I was put off by what looked like a rabbit hole of effort and a time suck I did not have time for. I also had my share of debates with him about things. Finally took the plunge after a number of others had gone before me and I was able to immediately apply much of his hard work to track racing. I continue to be amazed by the things that he has developed and I decided to help design some hardware to help others follow that path. I'm very happy to see others have successfully used what I designed and have a solution they are happy with.

I consider my tactile system a bit like my SC2 in that I didn't fully appreciate what it could do until I was able to stand on the considerable work of someone else.

That rabbit hole I didn't want to go down is where Mr. Latte lives. I think he is happiest there. Nothing is ever good enough and he is constantly tweaking things. I am very happy to have helped him and some of the people who are following his way of doing things. I hope to continue to help in that effort as I have time which lately I have not had. I continue to be incredibly impressed by what I feel from my rig because of his efforts. I'm also happy that many people who have decided to follow his path have been able to simply buy everything they needed to build this and are very happy with the results. I do not consider his path the only path, but it is a known good that has excellent results.

I hope that other's can respect that my path has crossed paths with Mr. Latte and I can believe in his work without being caught up in all the battles surrounding that work. I simply find the results have been worth it to me. It's my rig and should be my right. I continue to want to be a part of that effort to see where it goes and to be very clear that effort is not done. I've publicly and privately expressed my disapproval of some if his communication.

I also like to think that others should be able to share their build threads without sparking backlash. I was saddened to see and hear from other people who were excited to share their build threads, but were censored by people here because their builds included RaceBass tactile systems.

That doesn't mean that there are not checks and balances here for a reason, one person recently deleted some content that I think could definitely have been deemed sales related and I think that was an appropriate response.

I have never been the mouthpiece of any of the vendors or products that I have installed on my rig and talked about over the last 3+ years. I have never monetized any link to a product, or been paid or sponsored by any company related to this market. I also have no financial ties to RaceBass and I intend for it to remain that way.

I continue to believe that a rig is a personal expression and everyone has their own path or journey. I've enjoyed sharing my journey thus far. I have no idea where it will go next, in the least, seriously, none, nada, zippo.

I am intent on spending more time racing and if I can find the time I'd also like to get SimShaker for Aviators setup for DCS and get familiar with the AH-64D.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Rarely will a BIOS affect performance of games/windows, if ever. You'll get performance if it enables a particular function in a piece of hardware, such as overclocking, or the RAM in your case. Mostly it's just reliability/compatibility. Always good, for the most part, to be on the latest release for your motherboard, though. I've updated mine around 6 or 7 times since moving to X570. Probably 6 times last year and then one more just recently. I actually rolled back to the previous one because I thought it caused a drop out of the G-Belt, which I experienced when I first got it. Turns out, the USB selective suspend option within Windows had worked its way back to enabled, so I disabled that and it's been fine ever since. Funny how that actually affects devices. It needs to be disabled, PERMANENTLY. I'll go back to latest when I get a chance to update it.

The big deal for me has been running my memory at higher speeds.

I found that my system was not stable at 4000MHz but there was a substantial difference in my VR frame rate after boosting the speed.

When 4000MHz became unstable I dropped back to 2666MHz and it was horrible.

Using fps VR and In Death as a metric, I was getting 23% reprojection at 90 fps with the GPU at 90% at 2666MHz.

I believe I've got my system stable again at 3800MHz and I was down to 0.3% reprojection and during game play my GPU was only at 70-80%. This is with graphics settings as high as they go and 150% SS.

With the Memory running @3800 could manage 120fps again at 85-90% but only about 2% reprojection. Averaging about 118fps. At 4000MHz I had no reprojection at 120 fps either and the GPU dropped down to 80-85%.

This shows how dependent the GPU can be on memory speed. Not having fast enough memory seems to make the GPU work harder.

This also flies in the face of many fps tests out there for monitors. I'm guessing that in VR it does make a substantial difference even if it doesn't on flat screens.

With the upcoming Raptor Lake CPU coming out this fall that should have a faster single core speed, I'm wondering if that extra power will be throttled if I don't get a new MB with the fastest memory available.

I'm very curious if a new MB and 6400MHz memory will have a significant impact vs. dropping a Raptor Lake CPU into my existing MB.

Next upgrades:

1. ATX 3.0 PSU - I'll likely make this upgrade in anticipation as soon as good units are available from Seasonic.
2. 40 or 50 series GPU
3. New VR headset

#2 and #3 are tied together. I won't bother with a new GPU if there is no new headset to go with it.

Then I'll evaluate upgrading the CPU and/or MB/Memory if it looks like there are solid performance gains to be had driving the new GPU.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just spent a bunch of time re-evaluating everything and ended up net sum zero.

I considered upgrading to HE Ultimate + pedals, but it would take a chunk of time to re-engineer an inverted solution for them. The pedals are taller so I would need to move it higher. I'd end up replacing the top 40x120 profile with 40-160 profile. Then I'd need to machine a wider sliding plate and lately I'd have to create, likely machine a new wedge to increase the clutch angle and move it backwards. They also have less range 15 vs 25 degrees, so I'd probably have to machine brackets to allow more angle than I can get with corner braces. And then I'd have to dial them in. Of course I'm only using 55kg of force right now and I'm happy with my Sprints. Don't even know why I did a deep dive on this. So pass.

Then I considered creating a fully isolated pedal deck so my pedals would move more with tactile inputs, but I would need to re-engineer my mounts, foot plate and transducer mounts, replace a bunch of profile, likely weld some more steel, just a lot of stuff when I'm happy with my current solution. So pass.

Then I looked at a pile of other potential upgrades, but I just don't see any of them working for me. So pass.

I looked at the Precision Sim Engineering LM-X wheel, but my GT3 wheel is working great and don't really have a need for for the LM-X except "maybe" for the new VR ready F1 game coming. I have ZERO interest in building my own wheel and there is plenty of good stuff out there at least by my way of thinking. It is pretty, but would likely collect dust. So pass.

I briefly ordered some DDR4-5333 memory, but canceled the order. The fact is that my system is working well right now and until I upgrade my VR headset / GPU there is no point.

I once again considered various full chassis motion systems, but they just don't work for my mobile rig. So pass again... I'm not really even interested in getting one, but I still felt compelled to window shop.

What did I actually buy? A $27 1/24th scale Ferrari 488 EVO which is my current go to car in iRacing. < sigh >

Woo Hoo, right?

Still working hell hours and not using my rig lately anyway. The thing about working hell hours is that it means I'm complaining about my work/life balance all the way to the bank. I wish the next gen VR headsets / 40 series GPU's / Intel's latest CPU were here now!

I still need to setup my DCS Apache Helicopter and there are piles of cool tactile effects that I've not had the chance to try out.

 

[HoiHman]

A nice little project could be building your own push-pull shifter, since Martin Ascher does not sell them any more.

I have used mine for more than a year now and it's freaking awesome in Dirt Rally 2 and it's one of those things that will actually make you faster.

You could mill the moving parts like the lever in the shop and combine them with 3D printed parts

 

[RCHeliguy]

I use my H-pattern shifter in Dirt Rally. Love my ProSim unit! For track racing, I'm almost entirely paddles. My sequential shifter sees almost no use. Even making a mount for it was a waste of time.

But thanks for the suggestion. I wasn't trying to be rude.