Looking for recommendations to enter sim racing as alternative to sports car driving.

[Dead-eye]

Hello everyone

This is my first interaction with the sim racing community, so happy to be here.

Summary:
Being new to the realm of sim racing, I am trying to figure out if this hobby could enable me to replicate the experience of driving a sports car. I would have to build a setup from scratch incl. a new PC. Making a reasonable investment is possible and I am heavily leaning towards starting with a sophisticated setup rather than one as cheap as possible. But with the wide range of options out there, I am not entirely sure which way to go and, even more important, I don’t know if a sim setup will deliver the mentioned sports car experience. Having done quite some research, I feel I am only scratching the surface.

The core of my question: what would be good “entry” components/setups that may cost say up to 7K but best emulate driving a super car, maybe not only on a track but also e.g. twisty alpine roads?

Background:
Several years ago I made it my hobby to own and drive a C7 Corvette. Being behind the wheel of that car has since been the most enjoyable thing ever for me (except maybe for spending time with my kids). The problem is, it is a rather seasonal, good-weather-only, plus somewhat expensive hobby, that is not family-compatible. On top of that, apart from the occasional track day, you can’t simply take the car out and race for a bit.

After watching a video where a sim-drift champion drove a real drift car for the first time and did amazingly well, I started considering building a sim racing setup, focused around recreating the sports car driving experience, in the hope that it might just be “real” enough.

While at university I spent a lot of time with PC games, mainly MMORPGs and/or Space Sims (still look into Eve online every now and again), so I do have a gamer-gene already J.

Planned use/racing:
Obviously I would try my hand at some GT racing but also a bit of drifting and just open world driving experiences, although the only one for the latter that I know of is Forza Horizon (5).

F1 racing while cool to watch is not something I am too keen on getting into, so the focus is clearly on GT-style cars and possibly some rally driving.

Considerations so far:
My main concern is that whatever I do in terms of sim racing setup, I will always compare it directly to driving my car, so the idea is to focus on the core elements that make up the driving experience: wheel, shifter (has to have 7 gears + reverse) and the (clutch) pedal (I drive a manual).

So the best options seemed to be the Fanatec Gran Turismo 8nm DD, the fanatic or Thrustmaster TH8A shifter (although I heard the latter lacks realism feel so tend to favor the fanatec one), still not sure which fanatec pedals though, and a Next Level Racing GT Track as a rig. Plus I would have to get a new PC and 3 screens. While I do have 3 screens already now they are just 27’’ 1080p, so would need new ones there as well. I was also considering getting the Next Level Racing Motion Platform V3, possibly as a later upgrade.

The problem is, I don’t really like the other fanatec wheels outside of the Gran Turismo one. They all seem quite a bit different from what I am used to, maybe with the exception of one of the more generic GT ones, forgot the name though.

One of the problems here is though that a lot of the fanatec products are sold out and have been so for quite some time.

Now Moza has come out with their new R5 bundle which sports a wheel that I like the most from all that I have seen so far even though it is a bit small. However it seems limiting both in regards to how many other wheels are compatible with it and vice versa with it’s wheel not being compatible with the R9 etc.

Final questions:
To summarize the above again, this is where I stand:

I am highly interested in starting out with sim racing, but wondering how close it can get me to the sports car driving experience that would end up comparing it to. To get off to a good start with it, making a worthy initial investment would be fine, but nothing over the top.

What considerations in terms of equipment/setup have I not made yet, what might I have overlooked in my research? What specific pieces of equipment (wheel, pedals, shifter?) have I not considered that could bring the setup closer to that C7 Corvette feeling?


With that, thanks everyone who took the time to read through this post, or even just the summary at the top. And even more so thanks for any inputs.

 

[blekenbleu]

Since you have some track day experience,
sim driving on the same track in the same car
should help judge sim credibility.
Assetto Corsa is among sims more likely to have those.

I value a sim steering wheel diameter similar to actual,
which wants direct drive for credible force feedback.
I rarely use wheel buttons in sim.
Credible feel with a TH8A required
drastically shortened lever, light (cork) shift knob,
Delrin H plate and ClixBeetle detent mod;
better shifters for less cost and hassle beckon, e.g.:
SSH or AliExpress USB: 'Budget' H Pattern Shifter.

Decent pedals are important;
Heusinkveld Sprints are hard to beat.

A seat moving relative to pedals seems weird to me;
rating harness tensioning above motion.

 

[NetLawMan]

What is your budget? I don’t think entry level and replicate real world experience are feasible.

If you really want to replicate that feeling, you have to consider combining various systems to give you the same multi-sensory experience you have in a car. Critical components you have to choose from include:
-wheel
-monitor setup
-pedals
-motion
-haptics
-gforce seat/belt
-wind/air

I have evolved my system to include all of the above, the experience is amazing (quoting the many people who have tried it), and I am highly disappointed if any one system is not working in a given session (like when a SW update causes a temporary conflict).

All of this is in reach compared to the cost of a new car, but it really depends on your budget and how close to the “car experience “ you want to get.

 

[Dead-eye]

Thanks for the inputs and comments blekenbleu and NetLawMan!

Assetto Corsa is clearly going to be my first go-to point to start testing things out, I love the idea of comparing it to a track I have already driven on.
The "budget" shifter linked looks very interesting as well and I heard/read a lot of good things about the Heusinkveld pedals already.

To the question of budget, I was looking at probably around 7K in total. There is some flexibility there but to be realistic a full motion setup and/or wind/air elements are probably out of reach. At least to start off with.

 

[roylan101]

That setup is a bit tough including PC. If you don’t mind buying used you can get closer. As opposed to monitors you can do VR. A brand new G2 is like $400 and is the best thing out there other than the Varjo which is nearly 4k. VR will let you see apexes and feel things coming towards you and depth perception that you can’t get from flat screens. It is a bit uncomfortable to setup and use sometimes though. If you’re on a budget and have the room you can try some old used 1080P 40+
TVs. People will tell you input lag and blah blah but most modern ish TVs are fine with input lag. Check out the “let’s go race” YouTube channel. He uses 3 40 inch 1080P TVs and his setup looks awesome. Here’s one of his videos:

I think with triples you really need the size and vertical room to make it feel immersive compared to VR.

You definitely need a direct drive wheel, I have seen used accuforces go for $500-$800, same thing with old simucube 1 setups. That’ll get more power which helps with the realism. You’ll feel the steering load up with turns and if you have it turned up high the force you use to push into the wheel and stabilize yourself in the seat has a G-force type effect. If the wheel is too light it just feels like a toy.

As for shifter you’re going to want atleast a VNM shifter, or pony up and get a simvertex or BDH. If you get a VNM you can improve it with a spring mod, just YouTube VNM shifter spring mod.
Here are two really high end shifters:

H shifters kinda suck until you spend a lot of money.

For pedals you can try getting some used heusinkvelds or meca cup 1s. Should be in the $500-$600 range used. I have VRS but really don’t like the clutch pedal and that is important to you.


You can build a DIY wind sim for $150 or so, watch the boosted media video. I’m going to build one soon but from folks I know who have them they add a lot of immersion for cheap, especially when combined with VR.


To run the G2 in assetto corsa or ams2 or iracing you don’t need a crazy high end PC but I would google some benchmarks and see what you can get away with, don’t know what the sweet spot is on top of my head. VR in ACC is trash so keep that in mind.


You could then try to find a used Buttkicker gamer2. If you bolt this onto a rig it makes the rig shake and vibrate a bit, feels best with RPM and gear change vibrations. This will add some feel and the rig will be a bit more alive.

 

[blekenbleu]

H shifters kinda suck until you spend a lot of money.

My hacked TH8A feels enough like my Honda CRX VTi shifter to not be distracting. Locating correctly relative to the steering wheel is key.

FWIW, I agree with HP G2 for VR over triples, but VR does not suite everyone.
Wind sim is a good idea to avoid overheating in a VR headset;
A pair of $25 PWM 12V 5A (mining) fans, 10A 12VDC power supply and SimHub Arduino can deliver that.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Hy Dead-Eye,

your plans sound familiar

When I started Simdriving in January 2020 it was to practise Nordschleife on PS4.
( Equipment: DIY aluminium Rig with Thrustmaster T300 and TH8a in front of my TV.)

It escalated down the rabbit hole to a Simucube SC2, Heusinkveld Sprint pedals, a VNM H-Pattern and a Heusinkveld sequential shifter.

Sitting on a roadcar sports seat on an Alu rig with tactile feedback in pedals and seat.

Tripple 27" FHD 144hz IPS panels driven by 5600x and 3080 (For 1080p the computer is overkill, could be adequate if you go for 1440p)
I find it a very viable solution, after I went from 42 flat screen to the 27" tripples my ( irl) countersteer reflex also appeared when simdriving

As you you already have the screens I´d just start there, if you don´t want to go VR.
( I´m not a fan, don´t want to constantly tinke to get it ( keep it ) running.

As for the wheel base, If you can afford it go direct drive, the lower tier bases just won´t feel right if you want to drive your car by feel.
(It doesn´t really feel like your car, but you´ll adapt quickly)

Pedals should be loadcell, I like the HSV´s because of their versatility, craftsmanship and stellar custumer support. I see no problem in buying them used.

The VNM shifter is ok out of the box, a Thrustmaster shifter with the necessary tuning would be more expensive ( I own both)

All these items won´t "feel right" when dryhumping them, thats where the big gearbox actuated shifter and hydraulic pedals are sold.
As soon as your driving you will not notice it anymore and be completely immersed.

For a rig I sincerely suggest an Aluminium profile rig because it allows you to replicate the ergonomics of your car ( which you will change after a while because it won´t work out in the long run) and it will "grow with the expectations".

The seat can be a (good quality) roadcar seat, eg a passenger seat maybe from a C7 Corvette if you can find one used. Beware that it is from a sporty car (stiffness when braking) and whatch out to best get one without Airbag (Explosives!!)

After a while you could add tactile feedback, I use medium tier bassshakers on seat and pedals for wheel slip/ brake lock and road feedback ( curbs and bumps)

My system without seat ( which I took from an old car of mine) is around 7000 euros, so you should be able to stay within your budget with a quite capable setup, especially when you keep your screens.

MFG Carsten

 

[Dead-eye]

So many great insights and tips here, thank you very much everyone, this is greatly appreciated.
It is extremely helpful to get these tips, thanks also stigs2cousin for your detailed experiences.

I have several options in my apartment in terms of room/space but ideally I don't wan't to duplicate setup(s), i.e. doing everything in one room: sim racing, work and other games.
That raises two questions/concerns though: the desk height is 72cm, is this not too high up (although, I am quite tall)?
The other point is I will have to move the rig at least a bit whenever not racing. That, I suppose, probably makes an aluminium rig problematic, unless you can put wheels underneath like with the Next Level Racing GTTrack one? Based on the feedback I would indeed like to go for an aluminium rig though.
Alternatively I could separate it, get separate screens but use the same (new, to be bulit) PC but would have to connect 6 monitors to one gfx card.

Best regards
Dead-eye

 

[roylan101]

So many great insights and tips here, thank you very much everyone, this is greatly appreciated.
It is extremely helpful to get these tips, thanks also stigs2cousin for your detailed experiences.

I have several options in my apartment in terms of room/space but ideally I don't wan't to duplicate setup(s), i.e. doing everything in one room: sim racing, work and other games.
That raises two questions/concerns though: the desk height is 72cm, is this not too high up (although, I am quite tall)?
The other point is I will have to move the rig at least a bit whenever not racing. That, I suppose, probably makes an aluminium rig problematic, unless you can put wheels underneath like with the Next Level Racing GTTrack one? Based on the feedback I would indeed like to go for an aluminium rig though.
Alternatively I could separate it, get separate screens but use the same (new, to be bulit) PC but would have to connect 6 monitors to one gfx card.

Best regards
Dead-eye

Do you need triples for work/other games? Driving 6 monitors of one GPU isn't going to happen, atleast not high refresh screens. Maybe if youre just doing 60 hz.

You could keep your rig to the side of your desk and get a monitor arm that can swing over to be used for the rig. But a sturdy triple monitor mount with swivel adjustment that far is going to be big money.

 

[blekenbleu]

I will have to move the rig at least a bit whenever not racing. That, I suppose, probably makes an aluminum rig problematic

This is very much a minority opinion, but:
a direct drive wheel and load cell pedals on a (rigid extrusion) wheel stand
with an office chair strapped to it works for me.

The wheel stand is to one side of a workstation.
To switch from computing to sim driving:
rotate in the chair about 90 degrees,
strap it to the wheel stand
strap VR headset and 4-point harness to me, then launch.

For me, seating position (very comfortable)
is not an issue once focused on driving,
with steering, shifter and pedals located appropriately.
If one graduates to motion, then a full cockpit is wanted.

 

[pullmehome]

In my personal feelings driving a real car isn't replicated perfectly, but the skill set required to do so well is the same as in the real world for the most part. To me that's what I enjoy about it. I learned heal toe in a real car and it was easy to adapt over once I got nice pedals. Even my steering inputs are very similar in situations I've experienced in both game and real world. If you're wondering I have a single screen, direct drive wheel, and load cell pedals, with the Amazon shifter which is very nice!. In fact after a year with it the amazon shifter it impressed me most for the price point.

 

[blekenbleu]

driving a real car isn't replicated perfectly

We have a plug-in Prius. If blind-folded, I would probably
consider its controls less real than my wheel stand.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Depending on your workstation you could also design a rig that you move in front of the screens when you want to drive.
( the idea to reuse the screens you have was to lower the entry hurdle and after you know more to decide how to procede.
What kind of PC do you use to drive them?? If it´s not VR ready it could be able to run AC on lower settings for you to find out if you like it?!?)

Her´s an example for a PC "doing double duty":

It´s absolutely no problem to fit wheel casters to an extrusion rig!

Have a look around:

Sim rig parts | Aluxprofile.com

www.aluxprofile.com

I have dealt with them only once, but they get my strong recomendation.
Nice people, flexible and good quality, profiles have very little marks and are clean, NO Chips inside!!

BUT:

if you get hooked this will only be a temporary solution, you then will transition to a complete simulator with extra screens (probably four) or VR.

The beauty of profile rigs is that they can grow with you.

@blekenbleu ´s advice would be another possibilty to get a lower entry investment.

Both temporary solutions have the disadvantage that the overall experience is not completely optimal, eg Field of View ( very important to judge driving dynamics and "to hit apexes" and stability of seating position (Force Feed Back, braking stability and modulation)would most likely be compromised.


MFG Carsten

 

[fwyflyer]

Let's get real for a moment. No sim setup can recreate the near quivering adrenaline high that you can get from extended periods going sideways off road or on road in a real car. And, no sim setup (sub 20k) can really begin to recreate the seat of the pants feel as a car launches from 0-100+ mph or as that same car dives into the first corner of a high speed track. So, if you expect to feel those things, you wont be totally satisfied.

However, if you want to practice driving at or over limits or find the perfect line in an environment where there is no real risk of crashing a car, running through a $2400 worth of tires in a weekend, or destroying a multi thousand dollar engine, you can still have a truly rewarding, sweat inducing experience in a sim rig.

In your position, I would suggest starting with an aluminum profile rig (which should be compatible with whatever motion system you ultimately decide on at least a year down the road), a mid range direct drive wheel, a mid level h-shifter if your Corvette had a manual tranny and/or you really like rowing your own gears*, a mid level sequential shifter, mid level handbrake, and load cell pedals. Get yourself an ultra widescreen monitor (38" or larger), a beefy computer and an HP Reverb G2 v.2 for virtual reality.

But, and this is a big but..., FIRST find someone in your vicinity through the local race track, race club, SCCA, or whatever, who already has a sim rig and get some seat time so that you have a good idea where to start as well as how to make everything work well together. I have yet to run into a sim racer who was unwilling to share his rig in exchange for a lunch or two... Heck, if you were in Maui, I would happily throw you on my sim rig for a bit.

At any rate, over the course of a few days, try to get at least a half hour on at least three of the following titles: Forza Horizon 5, Dirt Rally 2.0, iRacing (Skippy or Lotus 49 at any track), Automobilista 2, rFactor 2, Asseto Corsa, Asseto Corsa Competitizione. Lastly, try to get some VR time with iRacing or Automobilista 2 as well. Also, should you decide to get a direct drive wheel, make ABSOLUTELY sure that it can run with all of the above listed titles.

*I personally love to race with an h-shifter but sim racing titles often restrict you to sequential shifting if you select a manual tranny. I hope to see this trend reversed in the near future so that I will be able to use an h-shifter in a modern GT3 car if I want to...

 

[Dead-eye]

Thanks once more to everyone for the great inputs.
I also appreciate that the real driving experience will never be replicated 100% and I will endeavor to test some setups (there are a few companies around here, offering the experience for a few bucks which I didn't even know before). But from all the comments and information I believe that if I get the setup right (even though not investing the equivalent of a new car ), the endeavor will be worth it and provide a great complementary alternative with the opportunity to learn and test certain aspects I might not do in a real car.

A standalone aluminium rig seems like the most interesting option after all, in particular for quality and accessibility, no having to move and (un-)plug lots of things.

I will have to separate the sim rig by a few meters from the office setup though due to room layout. But my thoughts now are to get a separate triple screen setup for the sim rig, somewhere around 27-32'', and get new monitors for the office setup with the same resolution (possibly moving down to 2 screens for the office setup, as I do not necessarily need 3 there if the remaining 2 are a bit larger) and working with HDMI-splitters to connect everything to a single new PC. VR, for the reasons many have stated here already is not something I want to rely on.

If this works and is feasible, the question of sound setup will be whether to get a second, independent speaker setup for the sim rig (to ensure front-center-back etc. sound-direction is properly setup, as the rig will have a different orientation compared to the office setup) or to settle for headphones for the sim rig. Generally I am not a fan of headphones though.

 

[Deleted member 1066209]

Why aren't you considering VR?

 

[trichens]

With regards to headphones @Dead-eye , unless you have very understanding family or a well soundproofed room then the noise from the system is going to make people very unhappy when they want to watch TV or read a book.
Also if you go down the motion system with wind fans, bass shakers etc. then the kit itself is going to make a lot of noise which wouldn't exist in the real car.

And if you decide to race online you'll need to be able to hear other racers and for them to hear you.

Finally, in one of your posts you mention the magic word "apartment".
My system is upstairs and noise from my bass shakers and pedal "vibration" motors generates complaints from my wife. When someone else is using my system and I am downstairs the noises are quite clearly audible.
If you have people living in an apartment below you they may not be very appreciative of the noises a full motion rig will generate.

 

[NetLawMan]

Thanks once more to everyone for the great inputs.
I also appreciate that the real driving experience will never be replicated 100% and I will endeavor to test some setups (there are a few companies around here, offering the experience for a few bucks which I didn't even know before). But from all the comments and information I believe that if I get the setup right (even though not investing the equivalent of a new car ), the endeavor will be worth it and provide a great complementary alternative with the opportunity to learn and test certain aspects I might not do in a real car.

A standalone aluminium rig seems like the most interesting option after all, in particular for quality and accessibility, no having to move and (un-)plug lots of things.

I will have to separate the sim rig by a few meters from the office setup though due to room layout. But my thoughts now are to get a separate triple screen setup for the sim rig, somewhere around 27-32'', and get new monitors for the office setup with the same resolution (possibly moving down to 2 screens for the office setup, as I do not necessarily need 3 there if the remaining 2 are a bit larger) and working with HDMI-splitters to connect everything to a single new PC. VR, for the reasons many have stated here already is not something I want to rely on.

If this works and is feasible, the question of sound setup will be whether to get a second, independent speaker setup for the sim rig (to ensure front-center-back etc. sound-direction is properly setup, as the rig will have a different orientation compared to the office setup) or to settle for headphones for the sim rig. Generally I am not a fan of headphones though.

I feel the best sound experience comes from coupling a Clark Synthesis Full-Frequency transducer with either a) headphones, or b) a set of small speakers or sound bar. It is important to feel the Lower frequencies Of the sound track. You don’t need big speakers or a subwoofer.

As an aside, I use digital audio out on the PC to a miniDSP, which I use to fine tune loudness and route audio to the Clark, a tiny headphone amp, and a pair of Bose desktop speakers. It works reliably and flawlessly.

 

[stigs2cousin]

I have a serviceable 5.1 system on the rig (lower HIFI grade, not a 100€ PC speakerset), but I prefer Sennheiser open back headphones.
It allows me to hear opponent positions and distinguish between front and reat tyre noises.

Not to mention the use for discord with a mod mike.


MFG Carsten