iRacing vs rFactor 2 in terms of FFB, physics and graphics?

[drvrn]

I intend to use LMP prototypes and ACC is therefore not an option anymore unfortunately.

Which game is better for real life FFB, physics and has good graphics?
Any experience with these 2 games?

 

[Owen Pyrah]

I think the graphics are a tie.
rF2 wins for physics and quality of tracks/cars.
The best thing about iRacing is it's forum.

 

[BrunoBæ]

The best thing about iRacing is it's forum.

I think this is a bit hard.
A few years back I had been a 5+ years member.
And my only real critic (and the reason I aborted membership) was iRacings lousy(IMO) tire model.
Most of the other things in the service is more or less perfect-ish(still IMO).
Yeah the graphics could have been better but the extremely professional team behind iRacing does constantly up the different features.
And invent new ones - like as example the damage model and the launching of the niches best AIs.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: What I think was the best about the iRacing forum was(and probably still is) the extremely engaged and knowing people participating. Hehe ofcourse beside all the idiotic religious tifosis who constantly try to kill all critics aimed at their god-ish sim.

 

[Kurupt CDN]

I feel the big question is how do you plan to race the LMPD?

The second question is how much are you willing to spend?
Iracing is obviously more expensive.
rFactor has mods available.

Online or against AI?
IMO the better option would be iRacing....larger community with hourly scheduled races and arguably one of the best AI/in-game customization in sim racing.

As for physics/ffb...I'm no physics expert but I find them similar, ffb has always been good if not the best in rfactor as it offers more chatter on the straights and tire detail.
iRacing ffb is based on steering torque so it's a bit dull on straights but I find the chassis ffb detail excellent.
Take the following with a grain of salt....Jimmy B did a video a few months back on tire models in sim racing and actually said he felt the iracing model to be the most realistic.

iRacing also hired Terence Groening during COVID....he was the physics and tire model developer for rF1, rF2 & rFPro.
So the title "should" continue to improve in that department.


Visuals are similar
Performance is similar
Ease of setup and play....iRacing

You mentioned ACC, I assume you play and enjoy that title?
The GT3's and LMP class just recieved a physics and tire model update just before Xmas.
I've watched a couple reviews on the update and it seems to be well received, a few YouTubers said it's the closest iRacing GT3s have felt to ACC.
Having raced the GT3, I'd agree with those statements...good and similar...but not quite as good as ACC

I haven't tried the LMPD in either title.

I'll admit, I'm a iRacing fan as I find it just works good on my system and I enjoy and use a large portion of the content.

That being said, it's not for everyone simply due to the cost and I would never suggest the title to someone that is a casual racer or just looking to race AI, as there is cheaper options that can give you a good/great experience.
If you are only gonna use the title for the LMPD I'd say go with rFactor or a AC mod

 

[BrunoBæ]

iRacing also hired Terence Groening during COVID....he was the physics and tire model developer for rF1, rF2 & rFPro.
So the title "should" continue to improve in that department.

I admit I didnt know that.
But until Im grudging forced to install Win10 and therefore can test iRacing for 1 month Im a bit resistant to believe that iRacings tire model god Dave Kaemmer voluntarily will let Mistar Groening fiddle with iRacings lousy old NTM.
But it would be pretty phantastic if iRacing get (or maybe allready have) a reasonable TM.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: The Win10 thing is because I resist to abandon my good old Win7 - and as I understand it then after I abandoned the iRacing ship then it has been mandatory to run Win10 if you want to run iRacing.

 

[Owen Pyrah]

I think this is a bit hard.
A few years back I had been a 5+ years member.
And my only real critic (and the reason I aborted membership) was iRacings lousy(IMO) tire model.
Most of the other things in the service is more or less perfect-ish(still IMO).
Yeah the graphics could have been better but the extremely professional team behind iRacing does constantly up the different features.
And invent new ones - like as example the damage model and the launching of the niches best AIs.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: What I think was the best about the iRacing forum was(and probably still is) the extremely engaged and knowing people participating. Hehe ofcourse beside all the idiotic religious tifosis who constantly try to kill all critics aimed at their god-ish sim.

If you haven't played it in 5 years you should try again. The tyre model got a huge improvement a few years back following a debacle where a bunch of pro drivers publicly slammed iRacing for something basically everyone had been saying from the start. With the bad press big Dave went back to work and truly improved it. It's not like as good as rF2 or R3E even, but it's really close. Close enough where you can actually enjoy just running laps on your own now. Previously it felt worse than Forza and Project Gotham Racing.

I wasn't joking about the forum, and didn't mean it as an insult to the game. I enjoy the forum and yes, there's a huge variety of people from different backgrounds there. The loyal user base is a real asset to the service. But yeah, there's a troll farm element there too. Just look at the recent Le Mans thing and the trolls are frothing over it. As if rF2 is anything but a David to iRacing's goliath. Maybe not a good example ha, but you know what I mean. Why get so up in arms if iRacing's future is still secure even without the trolling.

 

[Owen Pyrah]

I feel the big question is how do you plan to race the LMPD?

The second question is how much are you willing to spend?
Iracing is obviously more expensive.
rFactor has mods available.

Online or against AI?
IMO the better option would be iRacing....larger community with hourly scheduled races and arguably one of the best AI/in-game customization in sim racing.

As for physics/ffb...I'm no physics expert but I find them similar, ffb has always been good if not the best in rfactor as it offers more chatter on the straights and tire detail.
iRacing ffb is based on steering torque so it's a bit dull on straights but I find the chassis ffb detail excellent.
Take the following with a grain of salt....Jimmy B did a video a few months back on tire models in sim racing and actually said he felt the iracing model to be the most realistic.

iRacing also hired Terence Groening during COVID....he was the physics and tire model developer for rF1, rF2 & rFPro.
So the title "should" continue to improve in that department.


Visuals are similar
Performance is similar
Ease of setup and play....iRacing

You mentioned ACC, I assume you play and enjoy that title?
The GT3's and LMP class just recieved a physics and tire model update just before Xmas.
I've watched a couple reviews on the update and it seems to be well received, a few YouTubers said it's the closest iRacing GT3s have felt to ACC.
Having raced the GT3, I'd agree with those statements...good and similar...but not quite as good as ACC

I haven't tried the LMPD in either title.

I'll admit, I'm a iRacing fan as I find it just works good on my system and I enjoy and use a large portion of the content.

That being said, it's not for everyone simply due to the cost and I would never suggest the title to someone that is a casual racer or just looking to race AI, as there is cheaper options that can give you a good/great experience.
If you are only gonna use the title for the LMPD I'd say go with rFactor or a AC mod

Yeah I'm looking forward to seeing what develops from Terrence Groening joining the team. There's a bunch of issues around the tyre model and dynamic track and I think really it needs a fresh set of eyes. Half the time with these issues people can complain all they want, but big Dave can't just throw more genius at the tyre model. If you don't know what the problem is, you can't fix it. And knowing the problem is half the battle. Just like that old Q circles thing (https://www.iracing.com/q-circles-the-crop-circles-of-iracing/).

 

[BrunoBæ]

If you haven't played it in 5 years you should try again.

"A few years back I had been a 5+ years member."
As said I only aborted my membership a few years back - not 5 years.
So taken from latest youtubers and reviewers Im not overly convinced that much has changed conserning iRacings tire model.
But hopefully they have after all these years got rid of Kaemmers monstrosity.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I just re-read your post and can now see that Kaemmer is still involved in iRacings TM construction.
Hehe and as long as he is in charge I dont want to waste my money on a service that beside the TM is pretty reasonable.
If a service that costly cannot even offer a TM service that is on level with rF2 or as example AMS2 then Im not tempted.

 

[BrunoBæ]

but big Dave can't just throw more genius at the tyre model. If you don't know what the problem is, you can't fix it. And knowing the problem is half the battle. Just like that old Q circles thing (https://www.iracing.com/q-circles-the-crop-circles-of-iracing/).

Kaemmer: "So there wasn’t a bug, but just a piling up of round-off error one way or another for an entire lap. Amazingly, the top twenty drivers in the Nascar iRacing Driver’s World Championship field qualified entirely within that accumulated round-off error!"

Thank you for pointing me to this.
But all this Kaemmer outpouring just for being able to conclude that there was absolutely no bug in iRacings own code and calculations. The error was ofcourse caused by the way all PCs was/is doing round offs in their calculations.

I have to admit that I absolutely dont believe this man. His explanation in this case is just as trustworthy as his former explanation away that there was a basic problem in iRacings tire model. Some fake science that tires dont get cooled if they are not in contact with tarmac.

 

[Owen Pyrah]

Kaemmer: "So there wasn’t a bug, but just a piling up of round-off error one way or another for an entire lap. Amazingly, the top twenty drivers in the Nascar iRacing Driver’s World Championship field qualified entirely within that accumulated round-off error!"

Thank you for pointing me to this.
But all this Kaemmer outpouring just for being able to conclude that there was absolutely no bug in iRacings own code and calculations. The error was ofcourse caused by the way all PCs was/is doing round offs in their calculations.

I have to admit that I absolutely dont believe this man. His explanation in this case is just as trustworthy as his former explanation away that there was a basic problem in iRacings tire model. Some fake science that tires dont get cooled if they are not in contact with tarmac.

I don't have anything against the man, and have to admit this is the first time I've come across someone who does.

There have been, and continue to be, issues with the iRacing tyre model that other sims don't seem to struggle with. I think telling a man his calculations are wrong doesn't work because he can go through first principles and confirm they are ok. Often this is end of story for iRacing. But we did have a dramatic improvement a few years back when basically all the pro drivers were saying how far off the physics were. Something that everyone had been saying in the sim world. Like when Forza Motorsport 2 models driving better than your actual sim you should take notice.

But even then I don't think something was wrong with the model. I just think it was missing effects. Like it was too simple. So you find what you are missing and try to model it. Like we have seen in Aris' blogs with ACC.

Then some things are thrown in as assumptions, rather than being modelled properly. So the effect is there, it's just not very natural. Again, you can take the time to work out how to model it.

And the weighting of different interactions can be sometimes a bit off. Like the current problem with dynamic track getting slower than a green track. My theory is that too much weight is given to lost friction from the smoother surface and not enough given to increased chemical adhesion from the carbon on the track bonding with the carbon in the tyres.

If you want to criticise the man you could say he doesn't strive to improve unless the community is kicking up a stink. Though he's been going for years so you could forgive some ambivalence. Also, the man is very smart and I really doubt most of us commenting could do a better job.

 

[BrunoBæ]

There have been, and continue to be, issues with the iRacing tyre model that other sims don't seem to struggle with. I think telling a man his calculations are wrong doesn't work because he can go through first principles and confirm they are ok.

Lets just agree that we does disagree conserning Kaemmer and his approach on tire models. Because when he originally launched what he called iRacings NTM he was so proud to announce that this TM was completely different to all other commercial TMs.
He named iRacings TM as full theoretical TM against most others TMs.
And it was only later when all the problems began popping up he slightly defensive renounced a bit on the full theoretical approach.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: Enough of this. You are ofcourse 100% allowed to fancy Kaemmer and his TM.
But if you want to be slightly entertained by at least some discussion pro/con this monstrocity then check this thread. Hehe sorry Im participating here too

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/after-10-years-does-iracing-have-a-useable-tire-model.173054/

 

[drvrn]

Thank you for posting information in tire models chassis etc....

Many companies, dev, people are very obscure concerning their algorithms and they just have bold claims plus Marketing.

 

[Owen Pyrah]

Thank you for posting information in tire models chassis etc....

Many companies, dev, people are very obscure concerning their algorithms and they just have bold claims plus Marketing.

One thing to note is that ACC has what they call an empirical model. In that they model the end result. For a certain temperature, pressure, load and slip angle, this is the grip.

In both rF2 and iRacing it is more from first principles. In that they model the tyre materials as best they can. If done right, the end result can match the real world.

So physical works on the cause, while empirical just focuses on the effect. The bonus to physical is that once you have a good model of how the materials and carcass designs interact, you can feed these in as variables and you should get accurate tyres across many different tyres. With empirical you have to more or less make each tyre bespoke, though I'm sure you could start from a baseline tyre and work from there. But more tyres you have, the more work to maintain them.

Dave K has a a couple good blog posts about this (https://www.iracing.com/physics-modeling-ntm-v7-info-plus/) where it shows the complexity of a physical model. If you fail to model something, or get an assumption wrong things fall apart. It's impressive to read. I haven't read anything similar for rF2, but somehow they just nailed it without making a song and dance about it.

Like the state we are in now with iRacing, 5 years after the latest NTM, is they are actually tweaking each tyre individually. So it's like a physical base, but then a bunch of empirical on top to make it not so awful. It's loads better than it ever was. Like it's not a huge way off rF2. This is coming from something that was so poor it couldn't be called a sim. Not when comparatively arcade titles were simulating driving much better.

But also because of these tweaks to the tyres and setup, you'll find the setups diverge a bit from real world. Like in ACC you know you're wanting your temps in a certain range and your pressure in a certain range. To match real world setups. Things can get a bit iffy in iRacing. And probably also in rF2 to be fair.

We talk a lot about the tyre model, but something ACC does really well is the aero model. It is so much more complex than iRacing and even rF2 I think. To the point where it will often catch me out when I first come back to ACC. Pitch sensitivity and all, where aero stall is much less of a thing in either of the games you are looking at.

Honestly, best advice I can give is to pick up rF2 cheap and give LFM a go. Also maybe look out for a cheap 3 month deal on iRacing. I'd give you a referral code to try get $10 back but I have let my sub lapse until they start working on some of their core issues instead of just releasing expensive content. The MX5 is good fun and after rookies you can use it in the multi-class PCC series.

 

[Owen Pyrah]

 

[BrunoBæ]

Dave K has a a couple good blog posts about this (https://www.iracing.com/physics-modeling-ntm-v7-info-plus/) where it shows the complexity of a physical model. If you fail to model something, or get an assumption wrong things fall apart.

Thank you for the link - but I have seen it allready
And furthermore the blog is 5 years old so after your own conclusion its from before the revision of iRacings TM that made it less inferiour to as example rF2.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: But I must give you that you admit that on a socalled theoretical TM then "If you fail to model something, or get an assumption wrong things fall apart."