"Don't use the blue USB!"

[Navigator]

Hi guys,

As I am an old fart, I heart this line "back in the good old days". You shouldn't use the blue USB connector for your wheel.

Maybe that's overcome by now, but my mainboard is 6 to 8 years old.
Today, I had twice that my wheel wasn't recognised when I started up the system. I remembered I had disconnected the system a few days ago, took a look and the wheel was in the blue one.

So my question; is this still "a thing", shouldn't I use this connector or is my wheel going out of business? That last one would be a shame, it's pretty new.

 

[blekenbleu]

is this still "a thing"

If your hardware and firmware are unchanged, then it is as much "a thing" as ever.
Blue USB are typically USB 3 or newer.
In theory, USB 3 should negotiate backward compatibility with USB 2 and older.
In reality, some USB 1 devices did not work correctly on USB 2,
and the same is true of some USB 2 devices with USB 3.
More rarely, some USB host controllers fail negotiations with some legal USB devices.
Some recent AMD motherboards suffered from that.
Further, some USB 2 devices fail merely
by proximity to USB 3 high frequency energy, AKA EMI.

In the olden times, to promote USB, Intel hosted plug fests
where developers could discover whether new devices
implemented based on specifications actually worked in the real world.

Practically, the issue can often be addressed by inserting a powered USB hub
between PC and device. USB cables with ferrite beads can also help.

Beyond that, USB connections do wear and corrode;
dabs of DeoxIT Gold can sometimes cure USB issues.

 

[Durge Driven]

Use blue or black , red are for fast charging although they can be used for anything

Sometimes USB devices will fail to recognize if you have changed USB slots, like if you unplug all USB then put them back in other slots windows will go through the lot like they are new devices

I share devices between 2 PC
I run a Orico hub which has 13 blue and 2 red slots
Whichever tower I run I plug the hub into the exact same slot

Amazes me, I have external dual dock bay, external samsung SSD, 4 USB dongles, sim tablet, wheel, pedals, 7.1 headphones and 2 fast charge leads for phone, 2 wireless earplugs, BT4.50 headphones, 4 headlight and tail lights ( ebike and bike) 2 sets cheap wireless earplugs used 1 at a time for digital radio

All that runs out of a single USB slot ...no lag no pauses
But hub is worth $150 cheap ones had a dozen are garbage

P.S. Reason I first started using hubs was I never liked the way USB cables hang down
a tower putting weight on USB slots over time the slots can get loose and wobble

Using a hub the leads put no stress on slots

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[Navigator]

Thanks guys, very nice read too!
Learned some more.

Okay, so chances are it IS the connection change I make of this.
Oh, I really do hope so.

Thanks again guys!!

 

[blekenbleu]

Could you elaborate on this?

NCOS: USB 3.0 Interference​

Noise suppression for USB3.1​

USB3: Why it's a bit harder than USB2

The ECMF02-2HSMX6 is a highly integrated common mode filter
designed to suppress EMI/RFI common mode noise
on high speed differential serial buses like USB3.2 transceiver.

I run a Orico hub which has 13 blue and 2 red slots

I like this 12V/3A 8-port USB hub:

• can share a bulk 12V power supply with other sim devices
• 12V power is optional
• relatively cheap and available
  https://www.ebay.com/itm/292363836175
• trouble-free in my experience
• a 6-port version is also available, if space is constrained
• rectangular shape with both power and host connection on one end
  simplifies mounting e.g. by double-sided sticky foam tape

 

[Raikku]

Yeah, my CSW's has always wanted to be in usb2's rather than in usb3's. Much less problems.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Take the red one, always take the red one.

 

[blekenbleu]

So if I understand correctly, by having USB 2 devices connected to USB 3/3.1 etc.. I can get EMI, right?

Sorry, no. The USB 2 device cannot work at USB 3 speed.
If the connection works, then USB 3 controller negotiated to run in USB 2 mode and at its speeds.

• It might get interference from an adjacent USB 3 connection,
  which might happen even if attached to a USB 2 port.

But using USB 3/3.1 cables between USB 2 devices and USB 2 port would not create EMI or would it also?

Trick question. Here are USB 2 vs USB 3 connectors:

• "Real" USB 3+ cables typically have USB 3 Type B or Micro Type B on one end
  • physically incompatible with USB 2 devices
• Exceptions:
  • Type C connectors (some USB 2 devices have them);
    properly terminated in the device, these should negotiate faultlessly.
  • USB 3 Type A connectors at both ends (physically compatible with USB 2);
    some devices have Type A sockets (e.g. my favored 12V USB 3 hubs, above)
    • USB 3 controller negotiation might get confused
      by a USB 2 device with Type A socket
      and USB 3 A-to-A cable, but this should fail to work,
      just like any other failed USB negotiation.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[blekenbleu]

if all my devices are USB 2.0

... then nothing but USB 2 signals will flow.

You want an EMI rant? You got it.
USB signaling is specified to be balanced.
In theory, that should prevent EMI.
In practice, there are plenty of folks implementing USB devices,
including Sim, who are incompetent, with:

• unbalanced and incorrectly terminated transceiver implementations,
• USB cabling with balanced pairs not twisted and wrong impedance,
• inadequate shielding connected to power ground in more than one place.
• too much peak current drawn from USB 2 sockets
• not to mention, some products with bad USB implementations,
  because chip developers hack their own, rather than pay licensing for validated designs
  or firmware developers who do not appropriately configure validated USB libraries
  or fail to thoroughly validate their own.

Consequently, EMI issues with purely USB 2 devices are too common.

 

[RasmusP]

Another thing to consider is cable length!
I play casual games on the TV, which is connected via a 10m hdmi cable.
For the Xbox elite controller I had 3x2m USB 3 extension cables, the last 4m weren't needed (wireless stick).

Horizon Zero Dawn has a bug though with awful stuttering if controllers aren't connected via USB.

So I put another extension on the USB cables and it didn't work.
Bought a good 10m USB 3 cable: didn't work well.

Then I've read that by the standardised norms, usb 2.0 allows for longer cables!

Bought a good USB 2.0 cable and it's working.
I can also use another 3m USB 2.0 extension.

But if I dared to try another USB 3.0 extension (0.5, 1m, 2m tested), the connection becomes unstable.

So yeah, USB 3.0 is definitely less stable overall...


Apart from the 10m cable scenario, I never had any issue mixing USB 2 and 3 ever though!
Fanatec csw 2.5 with the stock cables into front USB 3 is working flawlessly since 3 years!

 

[blekenbleu]

USB 3.0 is definitely less stable

USB 3.1 Gen 2 is rated for only 1 meter cables.
USB 2 uses 1 signal pair; USB 3 uses 2 signal pairs,
so twice as liable to failure at the same bit rate,
and even more at higher bit rates. HDMI 2.1 has 4 signal channels,
requiring much high cable quality for the same overall reliability.

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Really interesting! Thanks for sharing !

Well I just know that my EMI (it acts as if my keyboard is constantly typing CTRL and/or ALT) is only there when my Simucube 2 pro (with the 2 Power Units) is on.

Even when I connect the SC2 to a different power line than my PC, I got this EMI problem.
I have switched the USB port on my PCC but same problem.
I have changed the USB cable but same problem.
.....


I suppose I have to live with that

Is it BT keyboard or USB, may be it's keyboard fault and not SC2, have you tried different one?

 

[Deleted member 1451080]

Deleted

 

[blekenbleu]

(it acts as if my keyboard is constantly typing CTRL and/or ALT) is only there when my Simucube 2 pro (with the 2 Power Units) is on

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do that".
Doctor: "Don't do that".

My guess is that your Simucube 2 pro would fail U.S. FCC Part 15 EMC certification testing.
If Its USB cable lacks ferrite beads, then I would immediately replace that with one that does, e.g.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003MQ29B2

Adding clip-on ferrite beads at both ends of keyboard USB cable could also help.

If that keyboard cable is as thin as most,
then it can be wrapped several times in a larger bead,
which helps more:

I'll guess that the keyboard is on/near your rig,
with its USB cable bundled along Simucube cables.
Surges in one cable get coupled into others by capacitance and inductance.

 

[blekenbleu]

Even when I connect the SC2 to a different power line than my PC,

If that different power line is actually from e.g. a different circuit breaker,
then using it may introduce a so-called ground loop, exacerbating issues.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Good call on USB cable, my SC2 came with some belong to trash junk. Replaced it right away with shielded one with ferrite beads.