AC CLASSIC Fat-Alfie Championship, Round 5 of 6 - Battenbergring Tue 19th December 2023

[JamKart22]

I think you had time, after your last spin, to just turn around and roll over the line for 5th. Shame you teleported back to the pits and lost a lap

 

[Programmer_Rich]

Definitely a race of attrition! I had hard battles with both Allan and Laurent for a lot of the race.

After a scrape with Allan I ended up pointing the wrong way and as I tried to recover I just clipped Steve as he went past, apologies again as it cost you a place to Hank at the time.

Final few laps with Laurent were intense but good racing. Going into the last corner, in the heat of the moment, I felt I had the line and had been pushed off. Watching the replay this morning (I had to rush off last night for taxi duties!) it was a lot less clear cut and I suspect I would have gone for the gap myself so no hard feelings Laurent, good racing.

 

[JamKart22]

Can anyone tell me if H shifter/manual clutch/heal & toe improve lap times or does it just improve the realism and emersion? I know Allan has said he's moved back from a H shifter to sequential gearbox and it doesn't seem to have slowed him down! Allan are you still using clutch/heal-toe?

As someone who uses a sequential box/auto clutch/auto blip I'd like to know if it's worth the effort going full realism to improve lap times. Which of the three (H Box/Manual clutch/Heel-Toe) actually makes the difference?

 

[cerebralvortex]

As someone who uses a sequential box/auto clutch/auto blip I'd like to know if it's worth the effort going full realism to improve lap times. Which of the three (H Box/Manual clutch/Heel-Toe) actually makes the difference?

I am using H-shifter, clutch, heel-toe.. I think if you are good at it you can be as fast as with a sequential. However you are prone to making mistakes and doing misshifts that can blow up your engine, lock the rears if you don't rev-match correctly, can't get in gear if you don't clutch correctly etc.

I think sequential with the aids is easier and maybe faster even ? I personally use what is on the car, for me immersion is the most important.

 

[JamKart22]

I be curious to know what lap time you could do around Battenbergring if you used my method. I'm hoping you're as slow as me so I have an excuse

 

[cerebralvortex]

I be curious to know what lap time you could do around Battenbergring if you used my method. I'm hoping you're as slow as me so I have an excuse

With sequential shifting on the steering wheel? No, I would be as fast or faster I imagine..

 

[Kek700]

I have had a few discussions with Rasmus about this subject, but as you say until I witnessed Allan move to paddles I was still unsure. So I would say that there is an advantage with paddles that makes shifting far more intuitive and straight forward, this gives an advantage. But H shifter means you do not have to go through all the gears to get the corner gear..
Now the big advantage will be the engine cut for each paddle change, something in the milli second range that I see on upnshifts that may be missing from H Shifters. Or the fact that the car is slowing more than you want from each sequential down shift.
But I know Allan used to use a good H shifter, and his times have not exactly plummeted.
So that is a answer in itself.
I still think H shifter is faster for upshifts, assuming the engine cut can be eliminated from the software, but that leads into, is it worth all the trouble, if we were all within a few hundreds or tenths of one another then any advance is an advantage, but as we are separated by seconds.???
Now if we are talking about immersion, then that is a completely different view point.
I think Laurent sums it up perfectly, H shifter for me would be a disaster waiting to happen, so it is paddles for me.

 

[JamKart22]

With sequential shifting on the steering wheel? No, I would be as fast or faster I imagine..

I'm suggesting you have a go with sequential gearbox/auto clutch/ auto blip.

I feel the auto blip limits how fast you can change down as you have to go through all the gears with a throttle blip.

 

[cerebralvortex]

I am always going through all the gears.. only time I wouldn't do it is with old F1 cars maybe where you have to brake really hard. Skipping gears is difficult I think. I don't think h-shifter users often skip gears at all.

If you switch to h-shifter and the whole shebang, keep in mind you will have much more incidents while racing while you are still learning it. I have at least. An issue I had a lot was not getting into gear and just missing the corner because of it. I still have it now and then.
Also, that Audi 80 at Sonoma event Dominic set up, I found it really hard to down-shift for that uphill first turn (letting go of the steering wheel to down-shift while cornering..), I'm sure I would be faster on that one with sequential.

If you go to h-shifter, do it for FUN, not speed.

 

[Kek700]

This is simple, “if” you can remove the engine cut with H, you cannot do that with sequential, so H is always faster.
With H you can remove engine braking, assuming you can take advantage of that,
I have often seen people go from 5th to N then go into 2nd for the corner.
But it requires excellent dexterity of hands and feet, and as I said this forum is separated by seconds , not tenths., my opinion is it is not worth it from that point alone.
So Laurent does it mainly for enjoyment of application.

 

[cerebralvortex]

This is simple, “if” you can remove the engine cut with H, you cannot do that with sequential, so H is always faster.
With H you can remove engine braking, assuming you can take advantage of that,
I have often seen people go from 5th to N then go into 2nd for the corner.
But it requires excellent dexterity of hands and feet, and as I said this forum is separated by seconds , not tenths., my opinion is it is not worth it from that point alone.
So Laurent does it mainly for enjoyment of application.

I would think up-shifting is faster with sequential. I always release the clutch a bit too late after switching gears, you can hear the engine rev too high often

About going from 5th to 2nd.. your brakes should brake more than the engine, isn't it? What would be the point? Like I said, I don't do it myself at all.

Yes I do it for enjoyment, I think I would be faster with sequential. I can try it sometime. But if you say Allan is as fast with both then do you expect you can go faster with H-Shifter? It is a lot harder to do and won't gain you time.

 

[cerebralvortex]

I have had that look at your Deutschlandring lap Colin, and like I said then, the difference is in a lot of small things that aren't optimal. It's about the right lines, going on the throttle at the right time, using the track. keeping the revs up, the ability to drive an unstable car. I think that last part is a big difference. Safe setups are slower, unstable setups are faster but you need to be able to handle it.

I think the gains you can make lie in these things, not in going to H-Shifter. But that being said, it is a lot more fun to use

 

[stigs2cousin]

May I butt in here:

I´m dayly driving a mildly track prepped sporty car which has seen track driving and autocross. (mildly track prepped means Quick Shifter a hand width away from the steering wheel and clutch travel cut in half)

When these cars where used in the VLN GT86 Cup series drivers had to deliberately slow down the shifts to not kill the gearbox (Cup series no modification allowed)

A dual clutch equipped car will always be quicker on upshifts as it has an imperceptedly short interruption of acceleration. The same with a dogbox sequential, the driver stays WOT and the ignition/fueling is cut for milliseconds to reduce torque.

So, if you use a "realistic" shifter with lockout that only allows gear change when the clutch is sufficiently depressed it will cost you dearly on acceleration.

On down shifts that wouldn´t be a problem as you´re braking.

But, as Laurent said the complicated technique is failure prone and taking a hand from the wheel is often a problemin difficult corner combinations.

Beginner classes at "Racing Schools" make you brake and downshift in a straight line which means overlsowing the entry.

I use a sequential stick (clutch for starts) and this stubbornness cost me in difficult corners like T1 in Suzuka.

There´s a reason purpose build race cars use paddle´s these days

 

[JamKart22]

Out of interest Laurent, what was your gearing set to? I suspect I picked one that was one or two clicks too high. I suspect this can make quite a big difference.

 

[cerebralvortex]

Out of interest Laurent, what was your gearing set to? I suspect I picked one that was one or two clicks too high. I suspect this can make quite a big difference.

Yeah, I think it was topped at 220 kph.

 

[Twoddle]

I would say there is no significant time difference between the 2 but H shifter allows for easier mistake and over the length of a race after a few shifting mistake you will be slower.

I personally use H pattern and wouldn't change.

I was using the 9/40 (143mph) gearing.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Doh

sometimes I´m so stupid that I can´t see the forest for the trees

All it takes would be to record three laps in Motec and compare the data.

I have all technical necessities but would have to do some wrenching
(clutch is far out left for left foot braking with a straight knee and H-Pattern shifter is in "wheighted longthrow" configuration as ATS penalises you for quick shifting)

Maybe I´ll find the time over Christmas.

To be continued......

 

[Twoddle]

Just tried the Escort with paddle and auto blip, It make the car smother and easier to drive plus left foot braking makes throttle to brake transition smother and faster. I could also change gear in places i wouldn't with h shifter. A good example is the village, i can be way mother through there due to the guaranteed smooth downshift plus i can keep hold of the wheel giving me more control.

So with all of that i think h shifter will be a little slower over a lap and most of it is due to the confidence it gives you when braking, upshifts are the only place it could loose a very small amount of time time compared to a WOT gear change.

 

[cerebralvortex]

Just tried the Escort with paddle and auto blip, It make the car smother and easier to drive plus left foot braking makes throttle to brake transition smother and faster. I could also change gear in places i wouldn't with h shifter. A good example is the village, i can be way mother through there due to the guaranteed smooth downshift plus i can keep hold of the wheel giving me more control.

So with all of that i think h shifter will be a little slower over a lap and most of it is due to the confidence it gives you when braking, upshifts are the only place it could loose a very small amount of time time compared to a WOT gear change.

Haha I didn't even think about the left foot braking advantage you can have when using sequential with these old cars

I agree about going into the village part, I did find it tricky to downshift through there as well. Using sequential will certainly have some advantage there.

So, case closed I guess, sequential is OP and should be banned

 

[Mikke73]

I have a pro setup so I also use it like one:
G29, no H-shifter, no heal & toe, no left foot braking.