rF2 BMW M1 @ Watkins Glen - Thu 03 Dec 2020

[Denis Betty]

congrats to the podium in both races and thanks for organizing.

Sorry from me, i was to slow.
Lack of talent and to caution i think slowed me down...

No need to appologise. It's a learning curve. We have good weeks and bad weeks. For me this was a bad week.
Race 2 I crashed and found myself spinning in the middle of the track. So sorry to the driver who came around the corner and found me trying to get back on track. I was really annoyed with myself and quit I'm afraid, so sorry about that.

 

[durielk]

Victor, that was me in the second video, .... ah sorry, we kinda got hooked together and I couldn't get farther right.
I had my own setup but throw it out after trying the posted one. My setups are ****!

 

[Peevee88]

Thanks all that was great fun. Good respect among the drivers.
Race 1 was a balst.
Race 2 was sitting in front of my PC, waiting to start Race 2 and somehow I missed it. Really gutted at the time. Nevertheless, well-done podium, and Denis Betty big thanks for organising.
Will be back for sure...

 

[Daniel R.]

My races where not that spectacular...or good...anyway, that´s how it went...

 

[Roland]

I had great fun, again! Thanks all for racing, this big a field of these cars was awesome to see.
Even during the pre-race sessions, all the traffic and all the cars entering and leaving the pit with the engines screaming brought a kind of liveliness to the event. For me this really added to the immersion.

I really like this car, Great looks, great sound, more than enough liveries for all of us!
But unlike what some of the other drivers mentioned on TS, I did not find it easy to drive at all at first. With more practice it slowly grew on me though.
And I owe a big Thank You to @knemo1972 for being kind enough to share his setup. It really helped me quite a bit!
During both races I was in the middle of the action, I didn't get involved in any incidents with other drivers, they were all very respectful. And apart from a solo spin in R2 I pretty much brought the car home safely both times. Great fun!

Thanks @Denis Betty for organizing, thanks all for racing. Until next time!

 

[Roland]

...So sorry to the driver who came around the corner and found me trying to get back on track......

I think that would be me.. But there was plenty of room to avoid your car, so np at all. As you said yourself:

No need to appologise.... We have good weeks and bad weeks. ...

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

While I wasn't racing myself, I just have to say how incredibly happy I am to see the solid numbers that were entered here yesterday!

 

[Yves Larose]

@Denis Betty thanks for organizing the event and thanks to RD for hosting any ideas which car for next week ?

 

[Denis Betty]

@Denis Betty thanks for organizing the event and thanks to RD for hosting any ideas which car for next week ?

I'm gonna take a look now, but it's looking like the Toyota Celica TA22. I will start searching for the best track in a while. Suggestions welcome, but I'll be posting the event thread this evening so time is tight.

 

[Luca Ciarfella]

I love it, some years ago, I was playing this with my band

 

[Denis Betty]

Last night after the event, it was pointed out to me that some drivers had been abusing track limits on the outside of the track on the exit of turn 1. I hate track limits abuse, but when I make a fuss I hear complaints from drivers that fussing about the rules all the time ruins the fun. Well track limits abuse ruins the fun for the majority of club members who are happy to abide by and observe our Racing Club Rules. The guys telling me I'm spoiling the fun are often the guys who are happy to.... shall we say bend the rules.

When citing track limits the first reply I always get is "I didn't gain any Time". Well if you didn't gain any time, what was the point of abusing track limits on the same corner 6 times in one race? AND Furthermore, which part of rule 7 of our Racing Club Rules says "Do not deliberately cut the track, unless you're not intending to gain any time" Because I can't see that part. Please correct me if I'm just being blind.

The next reply to track limits on corner exit is always, well the real life drivers are allowed to run wide on that exit. Yes and the real life drivers have a drivers meeting where things like that are explained to them. Can you imagine me trying to get 20 guys to attend a drivers meeting prior to the event. The real life drivers are racing to their set of rules and we race to RD Racing Club Rules and once again, rule 7 doesn't say it's ok to run wide if RL drivers do. No need to check, I've done that for you.

Now, there will be occasions where you run wide accidentally. You'll notice that in post #2 of every one of my event threads, it says that if this happens you should lift the gas pedal. This is a request, which everybody ignores, even me these days tbh, because I was the only person doing it, so I'll drop it. However, running wide at the same corner multiple times in one race is completely avoidable - as I'm about to demonstrate.

I only have the full replay for race one of this event and I only have so much free time to give. So, I counted the times each of the top 6 drivers on the grid ran wide at T1 in Race1. I was generous and counted the whole of the kerb as part of the track. The tally is shown below.

Luca - zero
Andreas B - zero
Me - 1
Paul - 3
Dean - 5
Stig - 7
​

I use 3 times on the same corner in one race as the maximum for accidental track limit transgressions. This is just a rule of thumb but I feel that number is aplicable here.

So as you can see, Luca and Andreas were very quick without breaking the rules, which I think demonstrates my point. Paul's 3 outings were all caused by him clipping the kerb on the inside, which threw him off line - not deliberate in my view.

So there you go, I'd like everybody to please take care to abide by the rules in future. There is a system in place penalise track limits abuse and I will be using that system in future if/when I deem it necessary for the good of the club. Fair warning.

Whilst I'm here, I wanna talk about corner rights and overtaking etiquette. We race historic cars (obvs) which can be tricky to drive, can squirm around a lot and call for more than average room to be given to other drivers. Therefore last of the late brakers, throwing it down the inside from a car and a half length back, is just gonna end in contact. It's likely to spoil somebody else's race and lead to bad feeling. That's not what I want to happen in a club that I'm running.

Historic racing is famous for the gentleman racer era and that is the kind of atmosphere I want to foster in the club. Please take time to read these web pages and try to get an understanding of what racing in this club is/should be all about.

Thanks

The Guide to Road Racing, Part 8: Passing Etiquette - Winding Road

GPL Recommended Driver Behaviour - Grand Prix Legends Wiki

wiki.grandprixlegends.info

 

[Michael Rudolf]

Last night after the event, it was pointed out to me that some drivers had been abusing track limits on the outside of the track on the exit of turn 1. I hate track limits abuse, but when I make a fuss I hear complaints from drivers that fussing about the rules all the time ruins the fun. Well track limits abuse ruins the fun for the majority of club members who are happy to abide by and observe our Racing Club Rules. The guys telling me I'm spoiling the fun are often the guys who are happy to.... shall we say bend the rules.

When citing track limits the first reply I always get is "I didn't gain any Time". Well if you didn't gain any time, what was the point of abusing track limits on the same corner 6 times in one race? AND Furthermore, which part of rule 7 of our Racing Club Rules says "Do not deliberately cut the track, unless you're not intending to gain any time" Because I can't see that part. Please correct me if I'm just being blind.

The next reply to track limits on corner exit is always, well the real life drivers are allowed to run wide on that exit. Yes and the real life drivers have a drivers meeting where things like that are explained to them. Can you imagine me trying to get 20 guys to attend a drivers meeting prior to the event. The real life drivers are racing to their set of rules and we race to RD Racing Club Rules and once again, rule 7 doesn't say it's ok to run wide if RL drivers do. No need to check, I've done that for you.

Now, there will be occasions where you run wide accidentally. You'll notice that in post #2 of every one of my event threads, it says that if this happens you should lift the gas pedal. This is a request, which everybody ignores, even me these days tbh, because I was the only person doing it, so I'll drop it. However, running wide at the same corner multiple times in one race is completely avoidable - as I'm about to demonstrate.

I only have the full replay for race one of this event and I only have so much free time to give. So, I counted the times each of the top 6 drivers on the grid ran wide at T1 in Race1. I was generous and counted the whole of the kerb as part of the track. The tally is shown below.

Luca - zero
Andreas B - zero
Me - 1
Paul - 3
Dean - 5
Stig - 7
​

I use 3 times on the same corner in one race as the maximum for accidental track limit transgressions. This is just a rule of thumb but I feel that number is aplicable here.

So as you can see, Luca and Andreas were very quick without breaking the rules, which I think demonstrates my point. Paul's 3 outings were all caused by him clipping the kerb on the inside, which threw him off line - not deliberate in my view.

So there you go, I'd like everybody to please take care to abide by the rules in future. There is a system in place penalise track limits abuse and I will be using that system in future if/when I deem it necessary for the good of the club. Fair warning.

Whilst I'm here, I wanna talk about corner rights and overtaking etiquette. We race historic cars (obvs) which can be tricky to drive, can squirm around a lot and call for more than average room to be given to other drivers. Therefore last of the late brakers, throwing it down the inside from a car and a half length back, is just gonna end in contact. It's likely to spoil somebody else's race and lead to bad feeling. That's not what I want to happen in a club that I'm running.

Historic racing is famous for the gentleman racer era and that is the kind of atmosphere I want to foster in the club. Please take time to read these web pages and try to get an understanding of what racing in this club is/should be all about.

Thanks

The Guide to Road Racing, Part 8: Passing Etiquette - Winding Road

GPL Recommended Driver Behaviour - Grand Prix Legends Wiki

wiki.grandprixlegends.info

My apologies in that case, I probably was one of those who ran wide in T1 way too often. I would not call that deliberatly though. I had never driven this car before but thought it could be a fun event (which I think it was, for me anyway). It took me until the end of Race 1 until I finally managed to get T1 right for the first (of very few) times. Most of the times I braked too late, turned in too early, hit the inside... you name it. I just could not get it right. I always want to race clean and fair so if I ruined anything for anyone I'm sorry about that. I'll not sign up without proper practise again.

 

[Andu1983]

Thanks everyone, that was good fun, though not having practised at all showed quickly. Spun multiple times in race one after a great start. Opposite in the second race, wild start and near spin (sorry for that) but then finally some consistency and P7 thanks to others mistakes. Sorry @Andu1983 for the contact in lap two, my bad, didn't know the car well enough for that move.
Thanks @Denis Betty for organizing!

Hi, now worries I had a great time

 

[Daniel R.]

Let's just use the cutting penalties, than we are save and there will be no further problems! ;-)

 

[Denis Betty]

My apologies in that case, I probably was one of those who ran wide in T1 way too often. I would not call that deliberately though. I had never driven this car before but thought it could be a fun event (which I think it was, for me anyway). It took me until the end of Race 1 until I finally managed to get T1 right for the first (of very few) times. Most of the times I braked too late, turned in too early, hit the inside... you name it. I just could not get it right. I always want to race clean and fair so if I ruined anything for anyone I'm sorry about that. I'll not sign up without proper practise again.

Michael I'm not talking about people who genuinely struggle to keep the car on track. The reason I used the first 6 on the grid as an example is because, if anybody should be able to stay on track, it's the quicker guys who have least excuse. Maybe deliberate is a bit strong and confrontational... careless about track limits might be better (I don't mean you if you were genuinely struggling - see my comments about Paul).

Look, I made a bit of an angry post about it last night tbh, sorry about that, but it's been coming. We have got a great bunch of guys together again lately and I don't want any of you to feel pushed away. I want us to be able to trust each other on track. That will build a good atmosphere and make the racing fun for all.

These events are not really about competition first and foremost. Rather, we look forward to meeting up for a chat and a laugh. It's an escape and a bit of fun. All the more reason then, to respect the rules and other drivers, so it's fun for everybody. If somebody is throwing their car down the inside of me at corner entry, with the brakes locked and nerfing me out of the way, that's not fun and I don't feel the mutual trust and rapport/respect that belongs in this club.

It's a club event and it's not expected that people should do hours of practice prior to the event. Sometimes there just isn't time. If people genuinely do their best to stick to the rules and fair play, I can't ask more than that. If you're having trouble with a corner though, I would say deliberately take it a little slower next time around and then try to build up your speed through there gradually as the race goes on.

 

[Denis Betty]

Let's just use the cutting penalties, than we are save and there will be no further problems! ;-)

I'm not sure how to introduce in game cut penalties, I think they vary for each track tbh. I forgot about this question, but it often arises when we talk about track limits. The new Spa has working cut penalties and it caused quite a fuss with people getting drive through penalties after being nerfed off or after a loss of control, etc.
The cutting is not a difficult thing once everybody is reminded of what's expected. At least once its out in the open and spoken about, we all know when somebody is not towing the party line. We each then have a choice - speak to the guy (in private usually), speak to me (in private) or say nothing and watch others begin to follow suit.

 

[Michael Rudolf]

Look, I made a bit of an angry post about it last night tbh, sorry about that, but it's been coming. We have got a great bunch of guys together again lately and I don't want any of you to feel pushed away. I want us to be able to trust each other on track. That will build a good atmosphere and make the racing fun for all.

These events are not really about competition first and foremost. Rather, we look forward to meeting up for a chat and a laugh. It's an escape and a bit of fun. All the more reason then, to respect the rules and other drivers, so it's fun for everybody. If somebody is throwing their car down the inside of me at corner entry, with the brakes locked and nerfing me out of the way, that's not fun and I don't feel the mutual trust and rapport/respect that belongs in this club.

Thanks Denis, glad to hear! And no worries at all! I totally agree, I'm here to have a good time and some fun. I don't have a ton of time to practise and my focus is on newer cars if I do. I only sign up if I at least know the track and feel I can handle the car without ruining the fun for anyone. Just wanted to make sure I'm not doing so . After all the reason I'm coming here to the club races is a fun and relaxed atmosphere and people not taking it too serious or freaking out about every little mistake. Witnessed enough of that in iRacing

I'm not sure how to introduce in game cut penalties, I think they vary for each track tbh. I forgot about this question, but it often arises when we talk about track limits. The new Spa has working cut penalties and it caused quite a fuss with people getting drive through penalties after being nerfed off or after a loss of control, etc.

Yeah Spa in this sim is not the best example for cut penalties being in place. Just made me rage quit yesterday I guess though it's also a bit what you are used to. I have a ton more hours on ACC and really know how to push it to the limit there so I tend to get caught by them in rF2 on the same tracks. However I think they do need improvement, getting a warning evading a spinning car going in the grass loosing at least a second seems a bit off.

 

[Peevee88]

Hi Denis and others
First thank you for the race and fully relate to your observations on the corner-cutting.
I will again read the rules and adhere.
In my defence, I must admit loving this car (among the best I have driven of that generation) would even do a league or series with it, spent about four-hour testing and driving it
However, will say I still don't feel I owned it and was more passenger than driver but felt I had good pace for the 25 mins.
Anyway, Turn 1 I never got right all night and do recall transgressing but not with malice. Nevertheless apologies for that.
Biggest regret: Staring at my game not realising Race 2 had started. Duh! Facepalm!
But other than that, I want more...

 

[Denis Betty]

Hi Denis and others
First thank you for the race and fully relate to your observations on the corner-cutting.
I will again read the rules and adhere.
In my defence, I must admit loving this car (among the best I have driven of that generation) would even do a league or series with it, spent about four-hour testing and driving it
However, will say I still don't feel I owned it and was more passenger than driver but felt I had good pace for the 25 mins.
Anyway, Turn 1 I never got right all night and do recall transgressing but not with malice. Nevertheless apologies for that.
Biggest regret: Staring at my game not realising Race 2 had started. Duh! Facepalm!
But other than that, I want more...

Hello mate.
The Paul I was referring to was a different Paul. Thanks for your thoughts though. Much appreciated.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

T1 at Waktins Glen is a bit unique as well, I cannot say I've seen any other series than IndyCar that have used the white lines as track limits there. IMSA; GT's run wide, NASCAR, well, NASCAR doesn't have track limits anywhere but the plate-ovals, so it's a free-for-all.

Not saying it's ok to not follow the RD-rules, as everyone know the rules when they sign up, but I can see why T1 is a challenging part of the track. The same goes for the boot, where it's very easy to put all 4 wheels on the inside of the track, but we just have to show that we have superior skills to the F1 drivers, and keep within the rules!