Asetek Forte Pedals a SCAM?

[AzulShiva]

You can see here how this thing is built: https://www.asetek.com/simsports/knowledge-base/forte-swapping-elastomers/

My initial assumption was the following: the brake pedal pushes into the elastomer and the elastomer pushes into the load cell, which measures the exact force (up to 180 kg) that your foot acts upon the brake pedal. The elastomer is mainly there to provide a softer feel. The little spring inside the elastomer is there to simulate the "soft" part of braking, before the calipers touch the disk.

Now I figured out this is NOT the case. The elastomer is NOT pushing against a load cell, it's pushing against a solid wall. The spring within the elastomer however IS pushing against a very small and much weaker load cell. If you remove the spring, your braking inputs will not register. If you remove the elastomer the brake will be very soft and register almost linearly throughout all 50mm of travel. So essentially, you are squeezing an elastomer with your pedal. The further you squeeze the elastomer the stronger you will push the spring into the load cell.

Everyone knows that the strength required to compress any object increases exponentially in respect to distance travelled, which is exactly what you get with this pedal. You push the pedal with a force of 2kg to get 25% braking power, you push maybe 10kg to get 50%, you push your entire bodyweight to get 75%, and 100% will require a metric ton of force. Of course you can recalibrate it, so it only works from 0-10kg, but that doesn't take away the exponential nature of it.
Also, the elastomer has some kind of memory effect. It decompresses rather slowly towards the end. If you push the brake pedal with maximal force for about 5 seconds and release it, the braking force goes from 100% down to 5% instantly and then very, very slowly begins to creep down to 0% and stays there. In a racing scenario you'd have to shift your deadzone to compensate for that, else you'd be accelerating out of every corner with the brakes applied 2-3%.

I am new to the sim racing scene, however having a very good grasp on physics and having an engineers mindset I would allow myself to call this pedal broken. Not only broken, but an absolute scam. The fact that the manufacturer lies to his customer about how the brakes function makes it infinitely worse. This is what it says in the manual:

The brake cylinder features a load cell sensor (up to 180 kg of pedal
force) detecting actual changes in force on the pedal plate,
which makes it the closest you will come to a realistic brake
experience.

False. The force on the pedal plate and the force on the load cell are not linearly correlated.

The load-cell ensures accurate and precise measurement in
kilos, and measures force rather than travel.

False. The load-cell measures compression of the spring which compresses in unison with the elastomer. To be precise: it measures force exerted by a small spring, however, since springs have a linear relationship between force and displacement, it directly translates into measuring travel of the squeezed elastomer, not force.

As mentioned in Section
4.2.3, the elastomer does not make a difference to pedal travel.
Only how much force is required to get through the “soft stage”
and enter the “hard stage”.

This is a bold faced lie. The elastomer determines pedal travel. Remove it, and you have 50mm pedal travel. This is sickening. I have never witnessed such a malignant marketing lie. Somebody should sue them.

The manual: https://www.asetek.com/simsports/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Forte-S-Series-Manual-v01-1.pdf

 

[trichens]

Doesn't the spring just give you the movement before the rod assembly comes into contact with the elastomer? It only serves to push the pedal back when it's released.
And the elastomer in turn has some give when the rod comes into contact with the load cell itself?
And the final braking force comes from the rod directly against the load cell?

If you take the elastomer out then there will be the same amount movement.
The rod passes through the elastomer and therefore the movement you get is that created by the spring. It just means that you'll only be pressing against the small spring before the rod hits the load cell. I would have thought that would be minimal TBH.

 

[AzulShiva]

Yeah that may be what their marketing wants you to believe. The rod never touches the load cell. If you remove the elastomer and calibrate the brake pedal, so you will get 100% brake with 2-3kg of force, and then reinsert the elastomer, there is no way to get past 5% lol. I got confirmed, they are indeed using a 0.50$ 5kg load cell.

 

[trichens]

Ummm... interesting.
They don't actually say they use a load cell with a high rating anywhere; just that you can use upto 180Kg of pressure.
Not sure there's anything actually wrong with that if they've devised a method that works.

The "elastomer does not make a difference to pedal travel" must be correct though as it's defined by the length of the rod that passes through the elastomer and the internal spring.
Whether this is fitted or not, doesn't it just bottom out and that is all the travel you get?

 

[AzulShiva]

Once the pedal hits the elastomer, it moves maybe 2-3mm more with the hard elastomer, 5mm with the soft one. It feels like a brick wall. The description is clearly misleading. Considering the price being 500$ you'd expect a proper load cell.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Technically it´s a proper loadcell.

What irks you is the method of measuring the input, the spring/loadcell approach measures travel like HSV does it with clutch and gas.

It´s not a "direct measurement" of pressure, I agree.
Wheather that makes any decernable difference when modulating the brake input I can´t decide because I´ver never used an Asetek pedal kit.

Also I´ve seen this discussion before, so you´re not the first to look Asetek under the skirt and not to be impresed with what you see.

 

[AzulShiva]

Technically it´s a proper loadcell.

What irks you is the method of measuring the input, the spring/loadcell approach measures travel like HSV does it with clutch and gas.

It´s not a "direct measurement" of pressure, I agree.
Wheather that makes any decernable difference when modulating the brake input I can´t decide because I´ver never used an Asetek pedal kit.

Also I´ve seen this discussion before, so you´re not the first to look Asetek under the skirt and not to be impresed with what you see.

Yes it's true. I communicated with some guys on reddit who really know their sh*t. My initial excitement from the overall build quality turned into almost vomiting into a cardboard box.

A 100kg load cell costs 30$ on Aliexpress. They put one in there for 0.50$ and added a spring to save 30 bucks on a product that costs almost 500? And then brand it "M.L.C.P.C. Technology" as if it's the next best thing ever, sneakily implying there's a 180kg loadcell in it without fully mentioning it. Asetek is like a corrupt politician trying to talk his way out of having bombed a childrens hospital somewhere in the middle east. These people are genuine, absolute scum. The people working at Asetek should be paraded through the streets with eggs and vegetables thrown at them by a mob.

 

[AzulShiva]

Wheather that makes any decernable difference when modulating the brake input I can´t decide because I´ver never used an Asetek pedal kit.

I didn't even drive with it, I was just calibrating it and realised how impossible it is. People all over reddit complain how it destroys their laptimes. The pedal is essentially trash.

 

[Leynad777]

I didn't even drive with it, I was just calibrating it and realised how impossible it is. People all over reddit complain how it destroys their laptimes. The pedal is essentially trash.

Dan Suzuki was probably the first outside Asetek who found that out and also say, that the loadcell is rather working like a potentiometer, but is it a scam? IMO not because those quotes are smartly ambiguous in misleading without lying, so just a typical marketing trick. The principle is kind of clever if it does the trick and some people seem to be happy. At least they offer an upgrade to the Invicta pedals that isn't more costly than buying the Invicta in the first place. I think they've choosen this principle also because during the plandemic the supply of proper loadcells were short and the prices quite high.

 

[AzulShiva]

I returned the product and bought the Simagic P1000. The load cell in the Simagic is most sensitive when pressure comes from directly above. However the brake pedal pushes against it at an angle of roughly 30 degrees, instead of 90, which means the force is reduced by a factor of SIN(30). I'm happy with the product, but I still had to laugh to what lengths these people go to design a pedal with a lower tier load cell. The loadcell in the P1000 is obviously not a 100kg one, but at least it's working properly as in my foots input brake force being in a linear relation to what the machine is reading.

 

[AzulShiva]

Yes, it's not a "scam". It's "smartly ambiguous in misleading without lying". They would lie to us if they would have the chance to, so much is clear. Parasitic, narcissistic marketing in full display. They're lucky most ppl are too low IQ to notice, else they would not get away with this.

 

[RudiPrellbock]

I bought the Forte Pedals 2nd hand about a year ago and until today I have a strange feeling while braking, I don‘t feel comfortable with the braking pedal at all. I don‘t know if its because of it‘s travel measuring design or because of the Elastomer.
What should I do now? Upgrade to the Invicta Brake Pedal? Does it feel differtent to the Forte Pedal?
Or should I move on to some Loadcell Pedals like the Simgrades?

The Gas Pedal of the Forte feels really good, I really like it.

 

[Leynad777]

I bought the Forte Pedals 2nd hand about a year ago and until today I have a strange feeling while braking, I don‘t feel comfortable with the braking pedal at all. I don‘t know if its because of it‘s travel measuring design or because of the Elastomer.
What should I do now? Upgrade to the Invicta Brake Pedal? Does it feel differtent to the Forte Pedal?
Or should I move on to some Loadcell Pedals like the Simgrades?

The Gas Pedal of the Forte feels really good, I really like it.

Just from watching reviews it seems that people either like Asetek-pedals or they don't. Seems nobody didn't like the Forte, but liked the Invicta, so the Simgrade looks like a better option for you and the throttle probably don't disappoint as well.

 

[trichens]

I bought the Forte Pedals 2nd hand about a year ago and until today I have a strange feeling while braking, I don‘t feel comfortable with the braking pedal at all.

How do you mean "strange"?
Different in some way to what it was like before today?
Does it actually feel different through your foot or is what you see on screen no longer what you think you were seeing? By which I mean the car isn't "slowing" or "handling" the same.

 

[RudiPrellbock]

How do you mean "strange"?
Different in some way to what it was like before today?
Does it actually feel different through your foot or is what you see on screen no longer what you think you were seeing? By which I mean the car isn't "slowing" or "handling" the same.

Since the day I got some I can‘t brake as precise as I imagine it to be. In every sim (I play ACC, AMS2 and Rfactor2) I have the feeling that I got to brake really early to slow down the car, even though I‘m applying a 100% pressure over a long distance.
I believe I setup the Pedal correctly within the Asetek Software & I tried different Elastomer, but I don‘t feel „home“ with the Forte brake pedal.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Have you calibrated the pedals in your games also?

Maybe the Aseteks output less voltage than your previous pedals, so you don't get 100% brake ingame?

 

[RudiPrellbock]

Yes, I calibrated the Pedals ingame as well.
Do you got the Forte Pedals, too?

 

[stigs2cousin]

No,

I have the cheap dutch stuff

 

[stigs2cousin]

Another idea?

In ACC, have you checked the Motec data if you can reach 100% brake power?

 

[trichens]

I've got the Invictas and have fitted the softest elastomer and got the long travel adapter as I didn't feel there was enough movement in the brake pedal for my liking.
I have thought about putting in something softer in place of the elastomer to see if I can get more "feel" but that might be due to my comparing the pedal to my road car.
I'll have to see if I can get into a GT3 racecar to see what it's brake pedal is like as a fair comparision.
After all most sim racers have no way of comparing their home setup to a real car.