Amp for tactile Transducers

I'll let you know if the usable frequency range in SimHub changes any this weekend. It should be obvious one way or the other. I've never been able to feel anything from my transducers below mid 30's.
 
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I did a little digging on this and while Shure shows a pretty flat graph from 22Hz-20kHz for this amp at 1W 6ohms, I get NOTHING out of my 4 x Aura Pros near 20 Hz and need to configure them up to about 32 Hz to feel them on my rig. I have always assumed that was because of a transducer limitation.

If you watch the following video it shows that the Aura Pros do in fact work well at 20 Hz assuming that the guy really is running a 20Hz signal that he says he is running to the transducers he is testing.

So while I feel like I'm getting good effects out of my transducers running in the 32-70Hz range, it does appear that my DIY amplifier is a weak link.

Good to know.

When I built that amp, I was playing and mostly curious if it would even work. I am happy with the effects I'm getting from it, but I did have to adjust the frequencies higher than I probably would have needed with a different amp.

What I learned from the Tactile thread is that it's important to have different effects use different frequencies when a single transducer is producing multiple effects. Even then a single transducer can be saturated with one signal masking others. So having a wider frequency range available can only help make each signal stand out more. Having dedicated transducers per effect is a more ideal solution.

So the bottom line is that this inexpensive Class D amplifier is not going to give you the full range of a transducer and is not ideal. It may be enough depending on your needs, but it appears that it actually does have low frequency limitations.

Guys, do note that when testing tones it may not be, just what you expect....

Here is a rather detailed example of a 22Hz Tone being generated with low to moderate volume.
The curved line is a 80Hz Crossover using a 36dB drop/curve.


Pay attention to how wide the grid is with different frequencies, that is the felt bandwidth energy. Notice how wide 20Hz is compared to 50Hz.

Now onto the example. So with this test we see that much more than just 22Hz as a center value is being generated. Both lower and higher frequencies are also included. Gain levels are important to consider as is what the output abilities with lower frequencies a unit may have. It is here we find wattage and weight in pistons or the power in the magnets used on the transducers are relevant.

So lets just increase the gain level to see what happens.

80Hz crossover highlighted. As we increase the gain all the Hz are going to become higher in dB. Therefore a transducer that only delivers good felt energy @35Hz or peaks at a common @40Hz. Well we can see it is containing 40Hz energy at just -3dB so will be part of the combined sensation they are feeling.

What this means is on a unit that will not properly generate high enough energy with the lower frequencies the user is going to feel the frequencies that are closer to its (good energy output).

Cranking the volume will not bring much additional increase in the Hz felt regards lower frequencies now being better felt (unit dependent) but it will likely on a lot of budget units just make its peak output frequencies for that units "output character" even more noticeable.



I would speculate while not scientific or accurate, this highlighted in red and in many cases something more like the lime green. This would be more like what a user would feel from a 22Hz tone if the volume was cranked. Lots of people have difficulty in determining different frequencies to feeling the same frequency with higher/lower gain as it's not always that easy to tell based on the unit used and the gain level and tone being tested.

When you look at this also take note in how much is not included in those boxes. This highlights just how much most users of budget tactile are missing from their immersion or indeed even the ability to place and enjoy effects with unique felt sensations in the vibes from the lowest frequencies that cannot be properly replicated or replaced with other frequencies own felt sensations.


Unique Vibes & Immersive Sensations
With capable hardware, did you know that approx 12-15Hz generates vibes that will make your face/cheeks/ears, resonate and shake. This can be used on G-Force based effects or high speed to replicate engine strain shaking the whole cars body/chassis. Its rather awesome if well handled by sufficent hardware and wattage. Also that 19Hz is the resonante frequency of the human eye, with ability to make even your eyelids vibrate move. So we can use these body responses to be contained within our effects creation to offer quite unique (user-defined) felt sensations that we cant come close to bringing to the immersion with the typical or budget/common tactile. Best immersion is not always about having 4,6 or 8 units. It matters greatly what the units used can achieve in the output of all bass frequencies.

True Low Bass Or Additional Harmonics?
The user may think they are feeling 22Hz and yes on a unit that can generate good energy from 5Hz like the large BK units. Then what they feel with a 22Hz tone is going to be VERY different to a small or common unit with limited or little response. As with a large BK unit and a decent amp they will indeed feel all the lower frequencies below the center value 22Hz with good energy as intended. Not feeling some Hz above the fundamental frequency used.

But hold On......
We are not quite done yet as a common thing people will do is crank the crap out of the volume. So what happens when we do this, just that the dB increases and the additional frequencies stay the same?

Well no, as we increase the energy we increase the harmonics also being contained or that will be felt.
Here is an example with the audio cranked with the same tone. Notice the huge difference


Now we see that beyond the crossover point. Assuming a typical user has no crossover in place. Even from 50Hz to beyond 200Hz have high dB. Okay but what the user feels will vary based on what the character output and their units limits are in its highest felt frequencies. If it was an exciter that 22Hz tone would have energy even to its 10th harmonic at 220Hz. On a unit that only can manage 100Hz then the user will feel it as a buzz contained in with the other Hz.

Suitable Created Effects
This is why it is important in building effects to understand that the same effects with tones used on one unit compared to another much more capable unit will vary a lot in what each user feels. Trying to build effects on high-end hardware for someone to then use those effects on budget hardware are not going to get anything like the intended felt sensations.

For budget tactile the user should focus on making effects that work well within that units peak frequency range. Its just that this differs a lot between pro hardware and budget.


Do keep in mind that with the example 80Hz crossover only the frequencies to the left of the crossover would be felt regardless in what is being generated. So using a crossover can vary quite a lot what Hz are felt on a unit to not using one.

Although to be fair it becomes more of a tool to use if you have units that are more audible like Clark Synthesis TST models or if using exciters. With no crossover control they will make much more audible noise due to generated harmonics.

So for big units like large BK we want to focus their output on the low Hz and not muddy the low bass with additional harmonics. This also can bring more control or help reduce clipping and with them using a crossover can be an advantage in limiting bottoming and finding peak performance from them.

Bottom line is that if you have basic tactile then you may just get away with a basic amp but really the users should consider buying hardware that lets them upgrade easily or enjoy the more capable hardware if purchased at a later time. So I think holding off for a better or getting a decent amp is a good start to build on, rather than these budget options that are going to be limited.

Keep in perspective, it's not just about more wattage and power, its the ability to make full use of the 1-200Hz bass range that we can then go about making much, much more immersive effects and for hardware that is capable of producing these...
 
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What
@gnoshme That's impressive.

For $21.99 free shipping 480W 80% efficiency ( 384W actual ) 24V PS

$4.18 + 2.79 shipping ( shipping is the same even if you get 6 of them )
12V-24V 100W Mono power amp.
@gnoshme That's impressive.

For $21.99 free shipping 480W 80% efficiency ( 384W actual ) 24V PS

$4.18 + 2.79 shipping ( shipping is the same even if you get 6 of them )
12V-24V 100W Mono power amp.


What power supply do I need for 4 3116 amps running mono?
 
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It all depends on how much wattage you expect to need for each channel.

I pointed to the most powerful PS on that list. I would tend to think that a single 384W output PS would be enough for 4 channels of Auras. For an LFE you would need a PS dedicated for each channel and a much more powerful amplifier.
 
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I did a little digging on this and while Shure shows a pretty flat graph from 22Hz-20kHz for this amp at 1W 6ohms, I get NOTHING out of my 4 x Aura Pros near 20 Hz and need to configure them up to about 32 Hz to feel them on my rig. I have always assumed that was because of a transducer limitation.

If you watch the following video it shows that the Aura Pros do in fact work well at 20 Hz assuming that the guy really is running a 20Hz signal that he says he is running to the transducers he is testing.

So while I feel like I'm getting good effects out of my transducers running in the 32-70Hz range, it does appear that my DIY amplifier is a weak link.

Good to know.

When I built that amp, I was playing and mostly curious if it would even work. I am happy with the effects I'm getting from it, but I did have to adjust the frequencies higher than I probably would have needed with a different amp.

What I learned from the Tactile thread is that it's important to have different effects use different frequencies when a single transducer is producing multiple effects. Even then a single transducer can be saturated with one signal masking others. So having a wider frequency range available can only help make each signal stand out more. Having dedicated transducers per effect is a more ideal solution.

So the bottom line is that this inexpensive Class D amplifier is not going to give you the full range of a transducer and is not ideal. It may be enough depending on your needs, but it appears that it actually does have low frequency limitations.


I'm getting responses at 20hz that I can use, but not for bumps. To put it in simhub effects terms, The lowest frequency I get most bang for the buck is unsurprisingly around 32hz so I use that for bump type effects and RPMs (which I think of as the "Idle" effect as it can be tuned to fade out above idle.. very useful!) I set volume so I feel like I'm driving the shakers at about 70% of their potential at that 32hz frequency. The way I have them mounted if I go above that I get a headache. At this level, setting wheel lock and wheel slip at 20hz and 24hz I get a meaningful perceptive impact. I like them down there, especially wheel lock - it gives a nice ABS like sensation. I don't have any effects set over 60hz but I haven't really experimented there much and should, because there's another very meaningful peak at around 140hz (if I remember correctly) and feels like I'm missing out on that for a "zing" of speed or something. Maybe on the todo list for later today.

To be very clear, I'm not here trying to preach that these little amp boards are the ultimate solution, I'm here saying that some are significantly better than others. Also, I have no doubt that the Berringers often quoted out perform the best of them.. my PA stack does too at lower frequencies, just not as much as I expected and certainly not in proportion to the cost. That's just normal.. the more you optimize, the more orders of magnitude it costs to create incremental improvement.

If I were to get on my soap box and preach one thing, it would be that buying 2 Aurasounds, a 4.5A power supply and of two mono TP3166 amps is a way better use of $150 than a Buttkicker Gamer 2 package. For me that's a no brainer for anyone that has any level of DIY proficiency.
 
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It all depends on how much wattage you expect to need for each channel.

I pointed to the most powerful PS on that list. I would tend to think that a single 384W output PS would be enough for 4 channels of Auras. For an LFE you would need a PS dedicated for each channel and a much more powerful amplifier.

I am running a MEAN WELL LRS-350-24 DC Power Supply to support 4 3116's. (Technically two Nobsounds, but they have two 3116's in them). Ok, to be 100% honest, it is now 3 nobsounds, but only 4 channels so basically the same load. No issues at all. That is pushing 2 Aura AST 2b's (50w each) [two channels]. 1 BKMini (50w) [one channel]. 2 Dayton Exciters (40w) [one channel]. I do have the voltage on the PS turned down to 20.4v. I've had no issues over powering the channels with the PS yet. It's not even gotten warm to the touch.
 
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I'm getting responses at 20hz that I can use, but not for bumps. To put it in simhub effects terms, The lowest frequency I get most bang for the buck is unsurprisingly around 32hz so I use that for bump type effects and RPMs (which I think of as the "Idle" effect as it can be tuned to fade out above idle.. very useful!) I set volume so I feel like I'm driving the shakers at about 70% of their potential at that 32hz frequency. The way I have them mounted if I go above that I get a headache. At this level, setting wheel lock and wheel slip at 20hz and 24hz I get a meaningful perceptive impact. I like them down there, especially wheel lock - it gives a nice ABS like sensation. I don't have any effects set over 60hz but I haven't really experimented there much and should, because there's another very meaningful peak at around 140hz (if I remember correctly) and feels like I'm missing out on that for a "zing" of speed or something. Maybe on the todo list for later today.

To be very clear, I'm not here trying to preach that these little amp boards are the ultimate solution, I'm here saying that some are significantly better than others. Also, I have no doubt that the Berringers often quoted out perform the best of them.. my PA stack does too at lower frequencies, just not as much as I expected and certainly not in proportion to the cost. That's just normal.. the more you optimize, the more orders of magnitude it costs to create incremental improvement.

If I were to get on my soap box and preach one thing, it would be that buying 2 Aurasounds, a 4.5A power supply and of two mono TP3166 amps is a way better use of $150 than a Buttkicker Gamer 2 package. For me that's a no brainer for anyone that has any level of DIY proficiency.

Speaking of frequencies -- I think something we may overlook is that perhaps a specific unit may peak at say 20, 60, and 120 hz (made up), your specific rig may have harmonics which better convey other frequencies - or convey different frequencies better depending on where it is located. I was testing some frequency responses using vibrometer apps on my phone (yeah I know... not the best tool but...) and noticed the mounting plate for my wheel peaked differently than my seat. Not just in amplitude (obviously) but in peak frequencies. I was kind of surprised that there would be enough resonance to make a difference, but I guess so...

Now - for 99% of the use cases, it probably doesn't matter at all -- but if you are really trying to tune it to the hilt - maybe worth checking what your feet will feel vs what the unit is best at, etc.
 
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Speaking of frequencies -- I think something we may overlook is that perhaps a specific unit may peak at say 20, 60, and 120 hz (made up), your specific rig may have harmonics which better convey other frequencies - or convey different frequencies better depending on where it is located. I was testing some frequency responses using vibrometer apps on my phone (yeah I know... not the best tool but...) and noticed the mounting plate for my wheel peaked differently than my seat. Not just in amplitude (obviously) but in peak frequencies. I was kind of surprised that there would be enough resonance to make a difference, but I guess so...

Now - for 99% of the use cases, it probably doesn't matter at all -- but if you are really trying to tune it to the hilt - maybe worth checking what your feet will feel vs what the unit is best at, etc.

You're right.. and it actually really can matter because 1hz can make a huge difference. That's why I always sit in my chair with a frequency generator to make decisions about what has the most "oomph". Even different people in the same rig can experience different maximal settings because it's about:

- the device in use
- what it's mounted too
- the weight of the person and their impact on the efficiency of any isolators in play
- the BMI / mass of the person, because the person becomes a part of the harmonic system

Even after that, different people will feel different things based on whether they are experiencing vibration or frequencies are creating a standing wave in a specific part of their body.

The math is horrible. I studied Acoustics in University a long time ago.
 
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To be clear, I never suggested that what I have right now doesn't work adequately and I still don't know if I just blew a chunk for nothing with the NX4-6000. I'll let you know if I think it makes any difference at all or if it makes a noticeable difference at all.

My plan is to run two channels from both amplifiers simultaneously, then to get the amplitude even between them at a frequency that works for both and then to make some changes from there.

I will also let you know if there is a difference, but I think it can be mostly compensated for. IE. is it good enough even if it is a difference.

My aim it just to understand what if any differences there are pushing Auras. I'm not worried about validating my purchase. I considered it a crap shoot. I was just curious enough to want to see and as I said I also got this for aesthetic purposes and because it could push more powerful transducers in the future.
 
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If I were to get on my soap box and preach one thing, it would be that buying 2 Aurasounds, a 4.5A power supply and of two mono TP3166 amps is a way better use of $150 than a Buttkicker Gamer 2 package. For me that's a no brainer for anyone that has any level of DIY proficiency.

I think you should compare this below to what you are doing/recommending....

If wanting cheap solutions, and basic amps suitable only for the units they are purchased for rather than upgradeable future options.Keeping the price down without the d.i.y factor.

It is very easy but does require a suitable seat (solid back) these units can be attached to....
This option is fully expandable/upgradable.

1 of these powering 2 of these
The user can upgrade with another set and upto 3 sets used for the back/sides of a suitable seat work fantastic for little money.

Said it many times, combine at least one BK (larger the better) with multiple pairs of exciters and it will bring far better immersion. How both types of units can work together is the route to achieve more professional felt detailing and sensations.

Auras are far too limited on their own and a better amp with them will only bring minor advantage.
Its not hard to grasp guys, for best tactile you want the ability to achieve 1Hz - 200Hz but to do that you need something like the proposed solution I share. Or you need large BK and more expensive TST units.

The other most common issue, is placing more than 2-3effects on a single unit drops defination from the effects being used. Again the multiple exciter solution solves that but I may as well pish up a tree as continue to waste my time convincing people what is a good pathway to excellent tactile. :)
 
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You're right.. and it actually really can matter because 1hz can make a huge difference. That's why I always sit in my chair with a frequency generator to make decisions about what has the most "oomph". Even different people in the same rig can experience different maximal settings because it's about:

- the device in use
- what it's mounted too
- the weight of the person and their impact on the efficiency of any isolators in play
- the BMI / mass of the person, because the person becomes a part of the harmonic system

Even after that, different people will feel different things based on whether they are experiencing vibration or frequencies are creating a standing wave in a specific part of their body.

The math is horrible. I studied Acoustics in University a long time ago.

Well, at least it's good to know I'm not 100% crazy, 100% of the time! Certainly lends even more credence to spending much more time tweaking things...which is kind of a rabbit hole lol.
 
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I think you should compare this below to what you are doing/recommending....

If wanting cheap solutions, and basic amps suitable only for the units they are purchased for rather than upgradeable future options.Keeping the price down without the d.i.y factor.

It is very easy but does require a suitable seat units can be attached to....
This option is fully expandable/upgradable.

1 of these powering 2 of these
The user can upgrade with another set and upto 3 sets used for the back/sides of a suitable seat work fantastic for little money.

Said it many times, combine a large BK with multiple exciters and it will bring far better immersion.

I hear you. This is best with fiber glass seat, right? The amp linked is a really nice functional spec and ease of use and I don't doubt it drives these units well. I bought two of the shakers and unfortunately blew them up trying to get them to a point where I could feel them but that's because they were mounted in a sub-optimal way so that's on me.

For sure I think you would need 3 or 4 per side to match the energy level of Aurasounds but agree fully that more channels can lead to more immersion. I took your "bumps" theory of delaying signal to different shakers and use it meaningfully in my setup. I do expect I will add a single large BK to my setup. When I was using smaller shakers, and two AuraSounds sub-optimally mounted my BK LTE did add depth but it can't keep up with the Aurasounds now that they are better placed. It's relegated to the pedal board that's about to get an upgrade with Aurasounds and a redesign and after that I don't know what I'll do with it. It just doesn't have the grunt even though it's got a much smoother response.

Wish you lived nearby so I could see what I was missing!
 
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I hear you. This is best with fiber glass seat, right? The amp linked is a really nice functional spec and ease of use and I don't doubt it drives these units well. I bought two of the shakers and unfortunately blew them up trying to get them to a point where I could feel them but that's because they were mounted in a sub-optimal way so that's on me.

For sure I think you would need 3 or 4 per side to match the energy level of Aurasounds but agree fully that more channels can lead to more immersion. I took your "bumps" theory of delaying signal to different shakers and use it meaningfully in my setup. I do expect I will add a single large BK to my setup. When I was using smaller shakers, and two AuraSounds sub-optimally mounted my BK LTE did add depth but it can't keep up with the Aurasounds now that they are better placed. It's relegated to the pedal board that's about to get an upgrade with Aurasounds and a redesign and after that I don't know what I'll do with it. It just doesn't have the grunt even though it's got a much smoother response.

Wish you lived nearby so I could see what I was missing!

You need to consider them more like a set of tweeters and they need some care.

Wattage via amplifier depends on the intput gain going to the amp.
They do not need much energy as they are very efficient and if directly mounted only mm away from your body it is vibrating. They can also give decent punch at 40Hz when used in multiple pairs. So their distribution/spread over a seat is greater than a single pair of units installed at the seat base. This means you can get more even spread of effects with less volume needed.

People moan about things like not getting good stereo in pedals, well then why have stereo in the pedals if your not getting the benifits of stereo effects? I have tested 3 pairs of exciters for shoulders,sides,spine all operating in stereo and even a pair going to below my knees/thighs.

That is brill for stereo and far better than relying on the typical 2 rear units attached to a seat base/frame..

I have not discovered a better way to get direct detailing, the only thing they lack is low bass but thats what we can bring with units like BK that are made for that very purpose.

The problem with the Aura approach is that they do not perform well with higher Hz so even a user adding a BK to them will still be missing the benefits the exciters bring... This is why I try to recommend getting cheap exciters first and then find a nice deal on a BK on ebay or buy one new at a later time with them being quite expensive.
 
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You need to consider them more like a set of tweeters and they need some care.

Wattage via amplifier depends on the intput gain going to the amp.
They do not need much energy as they are very efficient and if directly mounted only mm away from your body it is vibrating they can give decent punch at 40Hz.

People moan about things like not getting good stereo in pedals, well then why have stereo in the pedals if your not getting the benifits of stereo effects? I have tested 3 pairs of exciters for shoulders,sides,spine all operating in stereo and even a pair going to below my knees/thighs.

That is brill for stereo and far better than relying on the typical 2 rear units attached to a seat base/frame..

I have not discovered a better way to get direct detailing, the only thing they lack is low bass but thats what we can bring with units like BK that are made for that very purpose.

The problem with the Aura approach is that they do not perform well with higher Hz so even a user adding a BK to them will still be missing the benefits the exciters bring... This is why I try to recommend getting cheap exciters first and then find a nice deal on a BK on ebay or buy one new at a later time with them being quite expensive.

If I had the right seat (or was willing to switch what I have) I would be part of your sample group for sure. I'm totally sold on the theory. It's possible if I got into the back of my seat and carved out some foam I could mount the to the back of the fabric which could be really meaningful. Maybe. I'm quite sure I lack detail with the Aurasounds, but I like that they are bomb proof and with the rear seat mounts resting ON them aurasounds, sitting ON isolators between them and the base I think they are as efficient as I can get them. Probably 5x when I had them temporarily mounted to the base itself.
 
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I am running a MEAN WELL LRS-350-24 DC Power Supply to support 4 3116's. (Technically two Nobsounds, but they have two 3116's in them). Ok, to be 100% honest, it is now 3 nobsounds, but only 4 channels so basically the same load. No issues at all. That is pushing 2 Aura AST 2b's (50w each) [two channels]. 1 BKMini (50w) [one channel]. 2 Dayton Exciters (40w) [one channel]. I do have the voltage on the PS turned down to 20.4v. I've had no issues over powering the channels with the PS yet. It's not even gotten warm to the touch.

Are you in the US? Do you use a GFCI plug or anything to some safety as these are usually not exposed? As my buddy from the UK said recently when he visited, "If America is the best country in the world, how come their plugs are so crap."
 
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Are you in the US? Do you use a GFCI plug or anything to some safety as these are usually not exposed? As my buddy from the UK said recently when he visited, "If America is the best country in the world, how come their plugs are so crap."

Yes, I am in the US.
No, it is not on a GFCI. It is fully grounded, however.
Although, I'm not sure I fully understand why American plugs are "crap"? I have no experience with European plugs, so I just don't know.


My set up runs from a grounded outlet to a common ground surge protector, and everything runs off that. All grounds are common and connected. The power supplies "do" have exposed terminals, but I covered those so contact cannot be made. I have a dog with a nosy personality, and definitely didn't want him to get shocked.

That power supply, however, is capable of 110 or 220 via a slide selector switch. So you can power it no matter which side of the pond you reside in.
 
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I have 4 BS301 shakers screwed to my fiber bucket seat, together with a SMSL SA-98E amplifier and Simvibe. I have 2 on the lower back (left and right but close) and two on the sides. I'm happy with this setup. However, now I'd like to add one shaker to the bottom of my pedals. Do you think it would be a good idea to redistribute the shakers like this: one on the middle back, one on the lower back, one below the seat and the other one on the pedals. I don't care about loosing left-right separation because I cannot feel it now anyway. If I keep the setup I have, do you think I could buy another shaker and connect it to any of the sound outputs, or would that damage the amplifier? Is my only choice then to add another amplifier? In that case, would I need another sound card? Thank you.
 
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I have 4 BS301 shakers screwed to my fiber bucket seat, together with a SMSL SA-98E amplifier and Simvibe. I have 2 on the lower back (left and right but close) and two on the sides. I'm happy with this setup. However, now I'd like to add one shaker to the bottom of my pedals. Do you think it would be a good idea to redistribute the shakers like this: one on the middle back, one on the lower back, one below the seat and the other one on the pedals. I don't care about loosing left-right separation because I cannot feel it now anyway. If I keep the setup I have, do you think I could buy another shaker and connect it to any of the sound outputs, or would that damage the amplifier? Is my only choice then to add another amplifier? In that case, would I need another sound card? Thank you.

Darn, are you seriously still using Simvibe?

One good reason you are not feeling much stereo is that most of Simvibes effects operate more in a mono fashion. I think Suspension Bumps was its main stereo effect.

With Simhub you can not only have multiple stereo effects but you can set any effect to any channel you want. It is not restricted like Simvibe in that it used a fixed CM or EM operation mode for a soundcard. No sir, now you can also use all 6 channels on a 5.1 card with Simhub Shakeit.

So you dont need any more soundcards but you will need more amps to power additional transducers.
Its worth investing some time trying it out and donating to its developer.
 
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