David O'Reilly
A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
Hulkenberg might disagree?
and objectively speaking Vettel was thrashed last season by Ricciardo.
2015 Formula One Malaysian Grand Prix
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and objectively speaking Vettel was thrashed last season by Ricciardo.
Juan Montoya should disagree. Jeff Gordon should disagree. Sebastian Loeb should disagree. Jörg Bergmeister should disagree. And the list goes on and on.....
Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
@David O'Reilly
I don't want to stir pointless debates, i just have an opinion for yours...
If we argue how much the relations between Hamilton and his father, or even with Nicole had influence on the performances of Hamilton in 10-11-12 etc how can we not argue how much had the new born daughter of Vettel? Even more let's say they took away his favorite toy, when he was at the top of the things in the end of 2013 they went to totally different F1.
In Malaysia he came in that RedBull only +0.054 to Hamilton pole time. If Ricciardo was the only who have won a race that didn't belong to Mercedes, Vettel was the only who had 3 starts from the front row, meaning in pure speed he 3 times beaten Mercedes car. And was at the wrong place in wrong time often in the races and had many faults with his car. So, being so close in Malaysia but yet so far away in the race Vettel has seen how behind they are and your motivation is lost for that season. Vettel had even more also, problems with the tyres in races. And Ricciardo from worse car was very much comfortable with just another one in the name of Red Bull now, unlike Vettel who from dominant car of 2013 needed to adapt in a much much worse... i am just putting things on a scale. Ricciardo was flawless no denial but Vettel was far from his best. So my opinion is anything but trashed or destroyed. I'd say Ricciardo simply took everything he could in the moments when Vettel couldn't
I don't want to stir pointless debates, i just have an opinion for yours...
If we argue how much the relations between Hamilton and his father, or even with Nicole had influence on the performances of Hamilton in 10-11-12 etc how can we not argue how much had the new born daughter of Vettel? Even more let's say they took away his favorite toy, when he was at the top of the things in the end of 2013 they went to totally different F1.
In Malaysia he came in that RedBull only +0.054 to Hamilton pole time. If Ricciardo was the only who have won a race that didn't belong to Mercedes, Vettel was the only who had 3 starts from the front row, meaning in pure speed he 3 times beaten Mercedes car. And was at the wrong place in wrong time often in the races and had many faults with his car. So, being so close in Malaysia but yet so far away in the race Vettel has seen how behind they are and your motivation is lost for that season. Vettel had even more also, problems with the tyres in races. And Ricciardo from worse car was very much comfortable with just another one in the name of Red Bull now, unlike Vettel who from dominant car of 2013 needed to adapt in a much much worse... i am just putting things on a scale. Ricciardo was flawless no denial but Vettel was far from his best. So my opinion is anything but trashed or destroyed. I'd say Ricciardo simply took everything he could in the moments when Vettel couldn't
David O'Reilly
A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
So what would be a debate then?
(Edit)I wrote that short piece to bring ppl down to earth who rate Vettel as some kind of driving god.
He was unbeatable when his car was the very best, and then not always. The fight with Webber in 2010 was very very close and had Webber not crashed in Korea the WDC was his.
Once the blown diffuser was outlawed he was no longer dominant.
On the weekend Kimi was sublime too. Ferrari had a great race car, both drivers did well in it.
Their decision not to pit under safett car is where the win came from. Vettel could run in clean air and manage his tyres while his pursuers had to fight and use theirs up.
Its always possible to find reasons for non performance. The very very top drivers are not beaten by their team mates. Thats why Fangio is rated above Stirling Moss.
( Edit #2) the above is just my view thats all.
(Edit)I wrote that short piece to bring ppl down to earth who rate Vettel as some kind of driving god.
He was unbeatable when his car was the very best, and then not always. The fight with Webber in 2010 was very very close and had Webber not crashed in Korea the WDC was his.
Once the blown diffuser was outlawed he was no longer dominant.
On the weekend Kimi was sublime too. Ferrari had a great race car, both drivers did well in it.
Their decision not to pit under safett car is where the win came from. Vettel could run in clean air and manage his tyres while his pursuers had to fight and use theirs up.
Its always possible to find reasons for non performance. The very very top drivers are not beaten by their team mates. Thats why Fangio is rated above Stirling Moss.
( Edit #2) the above is just my view thats all.
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Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
If Ricciardo is better or not than Vettel
David O'Reilly
A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
Well they had 19 races in 2014 to sort that one out.
Its done now, they wont have the same cars as each other again.
And Ricciardo beat the "favourite son" who had all those years in the team before.
The new guy won, simples.
I disagree, I think McLaren has the best driver lineup, and even Mercedes has a better lineup than Ferrari. But hey, you know what, there's no such thing as actually measuring a drivers skill, sadly.
Nicely said cause I really don't like Vettel but that was indeed awesome...
Fully agree with your post. I too want Nico to take the championship between the two (Hamilton and himself), cause he has not won one yet. But, seeing his inability to push his car to its limits
last year and this year is a sign that he is not at the level of drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton
and so on... You could see that yesterday in the race, he couldn't read the game and even on
fresh mediums he couldn't catch Hamilton. Still, I'm not saying that Nico is slow or
not competitive.
David O'Reilly
A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
Regarding Nico,
It seems to me that he is by nature in a race battle situation a little conservative compared to Lewis.
It hurt him in T1 lap 1, but there are times where it helps him eg Canada last year.
EG at Spa 2014 it was him acting like he thought he needed to, to prove he was no cream puff. Normally he is quite measured.
I like Nico and his qualifying shows he is very fast. Its not always as simple as the press tend to think we need it to be.
This BTW is very good.
It seems to me that he is by nature in a race battle situation a little conservative compared to Lewis.
It hurt him in T1 lap 1, but there are times where it helps him eg Canada last year.
EG at Spa 2014 it was him acting like he thought he needed to, to prove he was no cream puff. Normally he is quite measured.
I like Nico and his qualifying shows he is very fast. Its not always as simple as the press tend to think we need it to be.
This BTW is very good.
David O'Reilly
A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
and it looks like someone doesn't agree that Ricciardo outdrove Vettel in 2014.
I better watch those races again, must be something I missed.
(Edit)I checked and it wasn't my memory playing tricks
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/season/138549.html?template=standings
However it must be said in Vettels defence, on some occasions Red Bull allowed Ricciardo to have the same equipment and even race freely on his merits.
As a 4 X WDC thats just insulting and shouldn't happen. Schumacher would never have had to stand for it I'm sure.
I better watch those races again, must be something I missed.
(Edit)I checked and it wasn't my memory playing tricks
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/season/138549.html?template=standings
However it must be said in Vettels defence, on some occasions Red Bull allowed Ricciardo to have the same equipment and even race freely on his merits.
As a 4 X WDC thats just insulting and shouldn't happen. Schumacher would never have had to stand for it I'm sure.
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Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
Well you see, that's the main reason why i wrote what i wrote on that subject because they are making Ricciardo like god. And me either i just want to bring them back down to earth.
David O'Reilly
A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
Imagine if there was a football stadium somewhere and 50% were Vettel fans and 50% were not!
The cops would be busy.
The cops would be busy.
I didn't know Vettel scored 30 points in the Malaysian GP
He did, but that doesn't mean he is objectively better than Vettel. He was better in that season.
Unless you think Ricciardo somehow deserves 5 WDCs or something (or that Seb didn't win his 4 by merit), in which case I honestly don't know what to say.
+ Everything Dux said.
To compare the 2 only in 2014 and to use that comparison to undermine Vettel's (or anyone's) talent, is biased. I'm sorry, but it is.
And regarding equal cars, they are never equal are they? The driving styles, how the car suits each driver, the strategies, the drivers form, luck (crashes, technical problems) all change.
And even if all of the above is plain wrong, there are other things. For example, as Dux said, Vettel's motivation or personal state.
And by the way, even if everything I have written is wrong, something which seems to be ignored is that F1 is, in principle, a team sport. The best combination wins. The car comes into play, the design, the engineers, the mechanics, the science. So even if Vettel was the worst driver ever, his races would have still been won on merit.
For example, saying Vettel/Red Bull didn't deserve to win the championship in 2011 because they had a car that was better, is like saying Usain Bolt didn't deserve to win in London because he had stronger legs than the others (the stupid thing is that many actually said that about Sebastian).
I have said this before, but if someone wants equal cars and no science or innovation involved, NASCAR is always there. Hardly any point in complaining and undermining the best because they are... the best? Doesn't make much sense to me.
Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
I think it has to do more with how long they hold it. That's the tricky bit. Usually the regulations change so that the dominant team loses, which really annoyed me in 2012. But they managed to stay on top for 4 years despite that. Respect, indeed.
Now, Mercedes... it's not over yet, obviously, they still look strongest, but it was Seb who showed everyone else: "This is what a comeback looks like!". Besides, this wasn't the first epic comeback in Seb's career (end of 2010 and 2012, anyone?).
Now, Mercedes... it's not over yet, obviously, they still look strongest, but it was Seb who showed everyone else: "This is what a comeback looks like!". Besides, this wasn't the first epic comeback in Seb's career (end of 2010 and 2012, anyone?).
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David O'Reilly
A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
Well I'm sorry but you logic is in my view badly flawed.
1) You are defending Vettel but saying its a team sport and its the team that wins not Vettel and even if he is the worst driver that RedBull is a deserving winner. Doesn't really strengthen your support of this particular driver now does it?
2) The Usain Bolt anology is a very poor one as in Sprinting like swimming it is PURELY the athletes performance. No engine, chassis, wind tunnel, engineeers in the pits. No Team behind him as you so well argue that creates the peformance on the day-Just him. So Usain Bolts performance is entirely down to his intrinsic athletic ability. No one can say he didnt deserve to win as it was just him.
An F1 drivers performance relys heavily on things outside his control. Otherwise Hulkenberg for example would podium most weeks.
So you freely use the word objective, when Vettel wins something he deserves it and its objective. When he is beaten as he was in 2014 it (19 races), objectively outraced and outpointed over a whole season by a comparative rookie somehow doesn't count due to external factors, his mood, his wife, his motivation, car doesnt suit him as much etc.
You appear to fail to see or understand the importance of the favourable treatment Vettel always got in RedBull.
For example in Silverstone he broke his brand new front wing. One of two they had there. Solution, they took the one from Webbers car and put it on Vettels. This was the weekend of the "not bad for a #2 driver" comment after Webber won.
Next example. In Turkey in 2010 when Vettel made a foolish attempt at a pass on Webber and a colision resulted (the one where he made the Cuckoo twirly finger sign), Horner embarrased himself by some waffle about "Seb had a slightly better fuel margin"
Next eaxample: Multimap 21. Vettel ignores team orders after Webber had managed to be ahead of him on track in the final stint in Sepang 2014 after a good tyre call early in the race.
My point you ask. Vettel gets the best treatment, the best equipment, the best support in RedBull. Ricciardo arrives, knows almost no one, has no special treatment, new to the car and beats him.
Not one race, beats him over the whole season. Out races him over a whole season, out drives him. In China Vettel again ignored team orders "tough luck" was what he said when Red Bull asked him to let Daniel through. 2 laps later Daniel passed him anyway. Monza he bluffed him and got a pass.
Vettels entrenched position in the team, technically, politically, financially in my view was probably worth 30-50 points to him. Daniel beat him anyway.
Considering all the foregoing it was a more resounding thrashing than the points table indicates.
In F1 it is often said the first person you have to beat is your team mate.
In 2014 Ricciardo proved he was faster. Objectively, subjectively it was by an even greater margin.
Hows that for logic and objectivity?
1) You are defending Vettel but saying its a team sport and its the team that wins not Vettel and even if he is the worst driver that RedBull is a deserving winner. Doesn't really strengthen your support of this particular driver now does it?
2) The Usain Bolt anology is a very poor one as in Sprinting like swimming it is PURELY the athletes performance. No engine, chassis, wind tunnel, engineeers in the pits. No Team behind him as you so well argue that creates the peformance on the day-Just him. So Usain Bolts performance is entirely down to his intrinsic athletic ability. No one can say he didnt deserve to win as it was just him.
An F1 drivers performance relys heavily on things outside his control. Otherwise Hulkenberg for example would podium most weeks.
So you freely use the word objective, when Vettel wins something he deserves it and its objective. When he is beaten as he was in 2014 it (19 races), objectively outraced and outpointed over a whole season by a comparative rookie somehow doesn't count due to external factors, his mood, his wife, his motivation, car doesnt suit him as much etc.
You appear to fail to see or understand the importance of the favourable treatment Vettel always got in RedBull.
For example in Silverstone he broke his brand new front wing. One of two they had there. Solution, they took the one from Webbers car and put it on Vettels. This was the weekend of the "not bad for a #2 driver" comment after Webber won.
Next example. In Turkey in 2010 when Vettel made a foolish attempt at a pass on Webber and a colision resulted (the one where he made the Cuckoo twirly finger sign), Horner embarrased himself by some waffle about "Seb had a slightly better fuel margin"
Next eaxample: Multimap 21. Vettel ignores team orders after Webber had managed to be ahead of him on track in the final stint in Sepang 2014 after a good tyre call early in the race.
My point you ask. Vettel gets the best treatment, the best equipment, the best support in RedBull. Ricciardo arrives, knows almost no one, has no special treatment, new to the car and beats him.
Not one race, beats him over the whole season. Out races him over a whole season, out drives him. In China Vettel again ignored team orders "tough luck" was what he said when Red Bull asked him to let Daniel through. 2 laps later Daniel passed him anyway. Monza he bluffed him and got a pass.
Vettels entrenched position in the team, technically, politically, financially in my view was probably worth 30-50 points to him. Daniel beat him anyway.
Considering all the foregoing it was a more resounding thrashing than the points table indicates.
In F1 it is often said the first person you have to beat is your team mate.
In 2014 Ricciardo proved he was faster. Objectively, subjectively it was by an even greater margin.
Hows that for logic and objectivity?
People are not saying that. If sprinting or running in athletics were to take a leaf out of Formula One's book then the team would design the shoes (let's imagine that the design would make a huge difference) and the individuals would do the running. That analogy you just posted basically says that Red Bull is literally a physical embodiment of Vettel's skill which is untrue. It's separate.
Formula one is around 70% car and 30% driver, give or take. It really is quite pointless debating about who is the quickest driver or who deserves a title. Surely it's just better to say that they're all amazing drivers who can do their job a billion times better than we could even dream of, and leave it at that. Now if only those in charge of the actual running of the sport could follow suit, that'd be great..
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