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Why is the C9 modeled as only the Le Mans variant?

Discussion in 'Assetto Corsa' started by kondor999, Dec 26, 2016.

  1. kondor999

    kondor999

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    The C9 is currently useless for any track except Le Mans. And Le Mans isn't even in the game. Why didn't Kunos model both the Le Mans variant (used for a single race) and the Sprint variant (used for everything else)? Of the two, I'd much rather have the Sprint version.

    No one uses the C9 right now. It's an understeering pig that transitions to sudden power-oversteer, because it's not running its intended aero package. It's a horrible car that few enjoy because of this bizarre decision to go with the one-off Le Mans low-downforce version.

    Sauber would never have taken this variant to any of the tracks that are actually in AC. Why should I?
     
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  2. 23racer

    23racer

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    There was an awesome resource here before made by someone who said they had permission from Kunos to make a High Downforce version. It required the dream car pack and it was very accurate and good, many members loved it. Basically you buy the dream pack with the Sauber, then download the resource, and you'd have two versions.

    Then Stefano asked for it to be removed, so I guess he didn't have permission? It's a shame, but oh well.
     
  3. kondor999

    kondor999

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    I heard about that. Same guy that did the amazing F2002.

    Sigh. Never understood the point of going after modders who are making your game more attractive to buyers. News Flash: AC is more vibrant than other offerings due to modding. And there are very few great modders. Treating them more like a valuable commodity might be a better long term business plan?

    Plus: No one uses the current (KS) version of the C9 anyway. Nothing is lost, but I bet a lot of people would pick up that dream pack just to drive a proper version of this famous car.
     
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  4. Stereo

    Stereo

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    Physics data's secret as per licensing terms, getting it leaked can lose them the licenses so no not really.
     
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  5. Chris

    Chris
    Administrator Staff Premium

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    It's not a matter of going after modders for making their game more attractive, it's about altering and distributing the physics files of an officially licensed piece of content without the consent of the owner of that content. So Stefano had every right to request it's removal, after all our terms of service state:

    and that,

    Burrito was lead to believe he had permission from someone at Kunos to upload this mod, so he had no objections from our end, but as it turns out he was lead astray, so we removed the mod at the request of the copyright holder: Kunos Simulazioni.

    As for the C9 in Assetto Corsa, I find it plenty scary enough as it is, let alone feel the need to add more downforce :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
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  6. 23racer

    23racer

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    So the matter was more that burrito *thought* he had permission from someone at Kunos, but this was wrong and so the mod was deleted? If that's the case, it seems reasonable for the removal, although I believe the wording from Stefano was a little harsh in the request.
     
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  7. kondor999

    kondor999

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    All of that makes sense. So sure, take down the file and work things out, maybe KS could include it in a DLC later. That's how we got the 917/30 and the Miura, right?

    "And we're done with you" seems like a pretty bad decision when you're talking about someone who can produce 1st-party-quality mods.

    The C9 is scary in the game right now because it's running a one-off super low downforce config that makes it very frustrating (and ineffective vs the short tail 962) to drive anywhere that doesn't include the Mulsanne Straight. I have no idea why KS didn't just include both versions from 1989. Maybe they only had access to the data for the LM special?
     
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  8. natedogg1867

    natedogg1867

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    Perhaps the wording from Stefano was harsh because Burrito is a guy that should know better. Using the defense that he heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that may have word from Kunos that he could alter some official content, rip open the encrypted physics, alter them... then release his mod is not kosher.

    He's knows better than that. :p

    Pretty sure the C9 is still faster than the Porsche's on most tracks, even with its lower downforce. Yeah it's a bummer we dont have the non-LM version, but it is what it is.

    Because: Licensing.

    If Merc dont want to play ball, how is it gonna get in the game?

    From Aris on the official forum: "Our cars are all licensed and often the license is chosen in agreement with the manufacturer. The LM car of the car is of very big historic value as it won the legendary race (as well as almost all the other races except one, in the sprint version).
    Furthermore the Mercedes C9 can now race with the 962C LT. Obviously you need long races to put into play the tyre and fuel consumption that brings the car closer.
    Last but not least, the Mercedes C9 Sprint version would have even worse of a low speed grip problem. It is the characteristic of the car."

    The C9 LM version is the iconic version of the car having won Le Mans. So, it stands to reason that Merc would want to license the more well known version of the car.

    Expect the same when the Mazda 787B releases.
     
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  9. 23racer

    23racer

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    Judging from what he said and Kunos stating he's no longer associated with them, sounds to me like he had some close association to the company itself. It could be that he asked someone within the company for permission and got the greenlight without Stefano's knowledge. He mentioned in the resource description that he was happy to take it down if there was any changes. Sounds to me like Kunos found out and thought it was a rip from the DLC pack and overreacted or angry that no one came to him which resulted in the reply.
     
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  10. natedogg1867

    natedogg1867

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    I think you are assuming far too much. He was never associated with Kunos, and never worked with them on anything :p He's been on Kunos bad side for a while that Im aware of for bad forum behavior over on their official forums.

    You simply can not get permission from a friend of a friend that may have spoken to someone at Kunos. You need to get permission straight from the horses mouth. And choosing not to do so clearly demonstrates your lack of respect for the work done on the official content.

    Not to mention decrypting any physics files is clearly not something Kunos will ever allow.

    Doesnt matter what it sounded like to you, he does not have permission to decrypt the physics files, alter them, and distribute a different version of them.

    Which is why it was removed.
     
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  11. kunos

    kunos
    Kunos Simulazioni Premium

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    Nope it means he got also banned from the official forum.
    He later apologized via PM and was allowed back into the forum.

    He never had ANY association with us, and, after this debacle, never will. Hopefully this will teach people to check, double check and triple check before claiming something is "approved by Kunos".
     
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  12. Glaurung

    Glaurung
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    You're beating a dead horse.
    And no, plenty of people keep using the current C9, though it has the LM aero package.
     
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  13. Jim Liak

    Jim Liak

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    C9 is one of the most enjoyable cars. Put it in Monza and forget your free time.
     
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  14. David Dominguez

    David Dominguez
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    How was it leaked? It has the same .acd protection as the official one. Plus you can get a lot of the data of the cars with in-game apps+log file.
     
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  15. kondor999

    kondor999

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    Looks like this was down to Licensing and making an example out of claiming "Approved by Kunos". I agree that was a really bad move and I certainly don't want a small-ish, new(er) company like KS getting into some kind of legal trouble over a mod. I love these guys and without AC, where would sim-racing be right now? Plus, they're in Italy which has an infamously capricious judicial system where it sounds like law can change depending on which day you ask. Then again, that kinda sounds like the USA as well ;)

    I wonder how much MB would want for the rights to a slightly different version of the C9 that's already in the game?

    Because: Crowdfunding ;)

    PS - Yes, it's good at Monza. That's one track. Again, Sauber used a different C9 than the one modeled in AC at every track besides Le Mans. Wouldn't you rather have that one?
     
  16. David Dominguez

    David Dominguez
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    And why is it in pCars?
     
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  17. kondor999

    kondor999

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    Last thing (probably lol) from me re: this dead horse:

    Why do Le Mans-specific variants if Le Mans isn't in the game and never will be?

    "Despite Le Mans Prototype race cars being confirmed for the sim, Le Mans has been confirmed to NOT be coming to Assetto Corsa. Marco Massarutto has stated that, since a 24 Hour race event is not able to be accurately recreated in Assetto Corsa, the licensing costs of Circuit de la Sarthe are not worth it."

    So, no Le Mans ever and all these Le Mans-specific prototypes. Does that make any sense?

    And I thought that the licensing covered the car's image. Does it actually dictate what physics they're allowed to use? I mean, look at the Porsche's in the laughably-inaccurate Need for Speed or the BMW's in various iPhone games. You're telling me those physics are somehow "Factory Approved" and the designer was told they couldn't model this-or-that amount of downforce in their .ini files? I mean, that's pretty hyper-specific. Surely the sim designer can do the physics however they please (including making them ridiculous)?

    I guess my point is that, in the case of the C9, there should be nothing stopping KS from implementing the equivalent to something like the sprint version by simply using the existing tuning menu. I don't care if the car looks like the Sprint version or is labeled as such, since that could cause licensing issues. All I want is the ability to increase the front downforce, using the existing tuning options. Surely that's not a "new variant".

    Is Mercedes really going to play the game, look at this or that setup value on the C9 and say: "This front downforce level is too high! We want more money!"
     
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  18. Glaurung

    Glaurung
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    SMS agreement with Mercedes is not as the Kunos one.
     
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  19. Tobiman

    Tobiman
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    Well, if kunos himself commented on this topic and refused to address your question head-on, it's probably a forgone conclusion.
     
  20. David Dominguez

    David Dominguez
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    Sure, I'm just saying that I doubt that the limitation comes from Mercedes (like he seems to suggest), since other games have no problem in running high downforce configurations.

    If Marco managed to get 5000 Porsches, I'm sure getting a Sprint version of that car is easy mode now :p
     
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