Why is the C9 modeled as only the Le Mans variant?

[kondor999]

The C9 is currently useless for any track except Le Mans. And Le Mans isn't even in the game. Why didn't Kunos model both the Le Mans variant (used for a single race) and the Sprint variant (used for everything else)? Of the two, I'd much rather have the Sprint version.

No one uses the C9 right now. It's an understeering pig that transitions to sudden power-oversteer, because it's not running its intended aero package. It's a horrible car that few enjoy because of this bizarre decision to go with the one-off Le Mans low-downforce version.

Sauber would never have taken this variant to any of the tracks that are actually in AC. Why should I?

 

[Amir Vodokotlic]

How do we know what version of Mercedes kunos asked for or what was offered to them.

I really doubt Kunos walked into Mercedes office and said we want LeMans version cause one day we will have LeMans track. When Marco said in stream LeMans is too expensive.

Than there is the data part.

In stream Aris said they send in spreadsheet with things they ask for from manufactures.

What if Mercedes didn't provide enough data?

In the Marco stream he mentioned how Maserati wouldn't give them cars unless they included that stupid SUV in game.

 

[natedogg1867]

Why do Le Mans-specific variants if Le Mans isn't in the game and never will be?

I mean, this was already answered above, with a quote directly from the Kunos physics dev... But I'll repeat it again so you can ignore it once more

From Aris on the official forum: "Our cars are all licensed and often the license is chosen in agreement with the manufacturer. The LM car of the car is of very big historic value as it won the legendary race (as well as almost all the other races except one, in the sprint version).
Furthermore the Mercedes C9 can now race with the 962C LT. Obviously you need long races to put into play the tyre and fuel consumption that brings the car closer.
Last but not least, the Mercedes C9 Sprint version would have even worse of a low speed grip problem. It is the characteristic of the car."

So, Merc/Kunos were working together and this is the car Merc wanted because it is far more prestigious than the non-LM car. Makes sense, yeah?

Is Mercedes really going to play the game, look at this or that setup value on the C9 and say: "This front downforce level is too high! We want more money!"

This is probably the single best way to ruin your relationship with car manufacturers. Illegally reproducing one of their cars that you havent licensed from them is absolutely something they would be upset over and use legal means to remedy. And they would be within their right to do so. Kunos isnt stupid enough to risk that

This entire thread is very simple. Licensing.

And why is it in pCars?

You know that no two license agreements are exactly the same... come on man.

 

[Epistolarius]

The C9 is currently useless for any track except Le Mans.

That's not true...

 

[jmoyer]

Illegally reproducing one of their cars that you havent licensed from them is absolutely something they would be upset over and use legal means to remedy.

Does that mean the 458 Challenge and F40LM were licensed but they didn't want to make new models?

 

[kondor999]

Natedogg1867:

Are you seriously saying that Mercedes would go into the setup screen for the C9 and nitpick over the downforce settings? That a dev would be violating their license agreement if, say, the car's suspension settings didn't exactly match the real car?

Look at Forza Motorsport. For God's sake, you can switch engines in licensed cars in that game. All of them. Even the Porsches. You can add all sorts of aftermarket wings and crap. Did they just happen to get a way more lenient license? In FM4, for instance, you could remove the "restrictor" on their C9 and get a much more powerful variant. You could have wider front tires, and so forth.

By your logic, Mercedes should've swooped in and shut them down or made them pay a separate licensing fee for every possible permutation (ie hundreds of them) that arose from the players modding the C9 in the typical Forza manner. Clearly that's not the case. How come the Forza C9 is completely moddable, but the AC one is set in stone and you'd have to (presumably) pay a new licensing fee if you, for instance, changed the allowable toe-out settings on the right front wheel?

 

[natedogg1867]

Natedogg1867:

Are you seriously saying that Mercedes would go into the setup screen for the C9 and nitpick over the downforce settings? That a dev would be violating their license agreement if, say, the car's suspension settings didn't exactly match the real car?

Look at Forza Motorsport. For God's sake, you can switch engines in licensed cars in that game. All of them. Even the Porsches. You can add all sorts of aftermarket wings and crap. Did they just happen to get a way more lenient license? In FM4, for instance, you could remove the "restrictor" on their C9 and get a much more powerful variant. You could have wider front tires, and so forth.

By your logic, Mercedes should've swooped in and shut them down or made them pay a separate licensing fee for every possible permutation (ie hundreds of them) that arose from the players modding the C9 in the typical Forza manner. Clearly that's not the case. How come the Forza C9 is completely moddable, but the AC one is set in stone and you'd have to (presumably) pay a new licensing fee if you, for instance, changed the allowable toe-out settings on the right front wheel?

Again since you are having some trouble here...

no two license agreements are exactly the same...

Unless you know for a fact that Kunos license with Merc is the same as Forza has, you cannot make the statement that Kunos can do whatever they want. Spoiler: You dont.

If Kunos license agreement with Merc was specifically for the C9-LM car, they cannot simply create another version of the car because they want to. That would be violating the license agreement.

It's really as simple as that.

Good day.

 

[kondor999]

I'm actually talking about altering the setup parameters of the existing car, not adding a new variant. Obviously a brand new, separate variant labeled SPRINT VERSION (or whatever) would presumably call for a renegotiation. That would be blatant and rather stupid.

No one's saying to add a new variant labeled as such, just widen the setup parameters for the existing car to include somewhat higher downforce settings than are now available. Again, it seems really hard to believe Mercedes would actually care about these very minute changes to esoteric setup parameters, which would seem to be in the realm of creative license when translating a real car to the virtual world.

Again, I'm obviously I'm not privy to the exact details of the KS license, but it's a little hard to believe that Mercedes would get "down in the weeds" and fret over, say, the exact downforce settings of the C9 in Assetto Corsa: "The real car only had 8 clicks on the rear wing and it says here you have 10!"

I assume the bone of contention lies in the fact that Mercedes is also licensing the actual data from the car (including perhaps the allowed setup parameters?). If so, I'm sort of surprised that KS would accept a demand for zero alterations to *any* of the data. What if the data is too complex for the game to actually use? Are they allowed no room for interpretation or creativity at all? What if the game engine results in an essentially undriveable car (not what I'm saying about the C9, it's OK on high-speed circuits) and they have to fudge a couple of parameters?

Anyway, it's just a mild suggestion to KS, really. Maybe they do have some leeway in terms of how they choose to actually use the data they've been given. If so, I hope they choose to use that leeway to allow us sim-racers to have a bit of fun and set up the car as we like, even if it isn't 100% historically accurate for the exact model that is visually depicted.

 

[Tom Blackett]

I would indeed love an official 'Sprint' version of the car. I also love the historically correct values and settings for each car as it should be. I think Kunos are fully aware of what the community would like if if they can I'm sure they will make it happen.

 

[Amir Vodokotlic]

Natedogg1867:

Are you seriously saying that Mercedes would go into the setup screen for the C9 and nitpick over the downforce settings? That a dev would be violating their license agreement if, say, the car's suspension settings didn't exactly match the real car?

Look at Forza Motorsport. For God's sake, you can switch engines in licensed cars in that game. All of them. Even the Porsches. You can add all sorts of aftermarket wings and crap. Did they just happen to get a way more lenient license? In FM4, for instance, you could remove the "restrictor" on their C9 and get a much more powerful variant. You could have wider front tires, and so forth.

By your logic, Mercedes should've swooped in and shut them down or made them pay a separate licensing fee for every possible permutation (ie hundreds of them) that arose from the players modding the C9 in the typical Forza manner. Clearly that's not the case. How come the Forza C9 is completely moddable, but the AC one is set in stone and you'd have to (presumably) pay a new licensing fee if you, for instance, changed the allowable toe-out settings on the right front wheel?

Porsche is satisfied with AC that its willing to run it at every experience center. Just like Dodge and Honda etc did with ac pro.

Meanwhile

Forza is console game with arcade physics backed by very deep pockets from Microsoft (Gran Turismo by Sony).

Mercedes isn't going to lose sleep over someone swapping in Ford crate motor into C9 in arcade game.

Its catered for 10-18 year old demographic that use controller.

 

[kondor999]

I actually just tried the C9 again on the V10 tires and 1.11.3 to see what people were talking about, since a lot of folks kept saying the car drove well - which had definitely not been my experience. Last time I tried the C9 was maybe a little over a week ago.

And...well, it's actually way better than I remembered. Last time I drove it, I'm about 99% sure it was on the v7 tires, and it was a real understeering pig, so I stopped driving the car. I had gone back to the C9 every time the tire model was updated, ever since the Dream Pack was released, hoping it would change, then gave up. Somehow I missed that they updated the tire model recently.

Bottom Line: It's (now) actually quite nice at the Red Bull Ring, where understeer was previously a big problem on the mid- and low-speed corners. Feels a lot more balanced now.

So, maybe one day we'll get a sprint variant or aero parameters that will allow you to basically recreate it. Meanwhile, the LM variant is still quite good on the latest tire model, just like people were saying.

Time to stop beating this horse, I think...

 

[Deleted member 130869]

No one's saying to add a new variant labeled as such, just widen the setup parameters for the existing car to include somewhat higher downforce settings than are now available.

I think that's how the Mazda 787B mod was made. Hopefully it will be turned into a two-version car, or kept the same. With correct aero and tire values.

Time to stop beating this horse, I think...

Give the horse Michelin tires and it won't even start the race .

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

The fake 458 Step 3 - really a 458 Challenge - is fine.

The fake F40 Step 3 - really a F40 LM - is fine.

The fake T125 Step 1 - really a poor Lotus F1 car - is fine.

And modders uploading edited versions of official tracks with additional grid slots is fine.

Why was this mod removed? Oh right, politics.

 

[Gergo Panker]

Wrong. It has been removed because no permission from Kunos was granted prior to it being uploaded, and it contained copyrighted material (not just in the physics but graphical and audio content), which violates the game's copyright terms.

Had he asked an actual Kunos staffer, this could have turned out differently. But he didn't.

Your list is completely irrelevant, it's either Kunos-made content or includes permission from Kunos, none of those being the case here.

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

Wrong. It has been removed because no permission from Kunos was granted prior to it being uploaded, and it contained copyrighted material (not just in the physics but graphical and audio content), which violates the game's copyright terms.

Had he asked an actual Kunos staffer, this could have turned out differently. But he didn't.

Your list is completely irrelevant, it's either Kunos-made content or includes permission from Kunos, none of those being the case here.

Technically all real world liveries on RD contain copyrighted material. But I see nobody upset that people are naming stuff "Ferrari's Opponents" instead of F1 2013 to circumvent the soft ban on F1 content.

 

[ALB123]

Technically all real world liveries on RD contain copyrighted material. But I see nobody upset that people are naming stuff "Ferrari's Opponents" instead of F1 2013 to circumvent the soft ban on F1 content.

I'm sorry. Could you please tell me how that relates to Kunos's decision to ask that the C9 modifications be removed? Is this how you come up with interesting topics for your blog?

 

[Gergo Panker]

Hard to argue with that logic of steel.

Again, not relevant, you're talking about F1, I'm talking about Kunos going after Kunos-made and protected material that was uploaded with Kunos' supposed permission, which was explicitly mentioned but never granted. Simple as that.

 

[kondor999]

The fake 458 Step 3 - really a 458 Challenge - is fine.

The fake F40 Step 3 - really a F40 LM - is fine.

The fake T125 Step 1 - really a poor Lotus F1 car - is fine.

And modders uploading edited versions of official tracks with additional grid slots is fine.

Why was this mod removed? Oh right, politics.

You make a very valid point here, and one I wish I'd thought of myself. However, I think the real issue is not the mod itself, but how it was handled in terms of getting actual permission from KS prior to posting it on a public forum.

If you go around decrypting physics files, making changes, then packaging it back up - You'd better have permission to post the end result (complete with KS copyrighted sound and graphics) up on a public site.

It's just a shame that the poor old C9 got caught up in all this and now the Sprint version is basically collateral damage. I realize KS thought they needed to make an example, but what I'd really wish they would do now is wait a while, and then release the Sprint as a 'S1" upgrade to the existing C9 car - just like they did with the F40LM-that's-not-labeled-LM.

Don't call it anything but the "S1" and maybe mention it's a Fantasy variant with a bit more downforce or whatever, which is exactly what they do with a lot of the other "S1" or "S3" variants.

 

[kondor999]

Hard to argue with that logic of steel.

Again, not relevant, you're talking about F1, I'm talking about Kunos going after Kunos-made and protected material that was uploaded with Kunos' supposed permission, which was explicitly mentioned but never granted. Simple as that.

The original intent of this thread wasn't to descend into a discussion about Burrito's mod, actually.

I wanted to understand why KS themselves couldn't give us an "S1" version the C9, in the same way they've done with, say, the F40. Or even just give us a setting in the Aero section that says "High Downforce Package" that could be set to "0" or "1" and would accomplish the same thing.

I mean, how is that different (in terms of licensing) from adding or removing the "Gurney Flap" setting on the 935/78? Do the car makers say: "Include the Gurney Flap setting or this deal is OFF!"?

 

[Radu Oros]

There's no workaround for this if Mercedes doesn't agree or didn't initially give them permission. The same way with Nissan GTR R34 V-Spec, they only gave permission for this version of the car and no modifications, like you see upgrade stages with the AE86, Supra, and RX-7.

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

There's no workaround for this if Mercedes doesn't agree or didn't initially give them permission. The same way with Nissan GTR R34 V-Spec, they only gave permission for this version of the car and no modifications, like you see upgrade stages with the AE86, Supra, and RX-7.

Ferrari didn't give permission for the 458 Challenge or F40LM. If they did, they wouldnt be under some quasi-fictional Step 3 package.