What i think is not right with RRes physics?!

[Msportdan]

FINAL UPDATE!
hhhhmmmmmmm so i gave the DTMs on RF2 a try last night and just fell for them, so nice to drive feels natural nice FFB and weight in wheel.

Go ahead and i put RRe and it just feels wrong, (even with my new settings) the middle of the wheel feel loose/light and has no ffb. Its horrid.. Unless you have the wheel turned its just poor. Only way i can really cure this is turn up steering force, then i start getting the "auto" bloody straighten wheel assist or whatever it is. (possibly too much forcing the other way)

I have come to the conclusion (as apart from buying a new wheel) that this is a great game etc, but when played with another sim with better physics, you can notice it so much more. Its to a point its off putting.

Maybe a possibility of a minumum force setting? Well since not one dev has commented on it it must just be me, or im being ignored, it doesnt really matter as so many people think the FFB are bang on "ppffft" lol.

So for me there is STILL something that isnt quite right about RRe physics etc.... and until S3 fix this (floaty around the centre feel) ill stand by my OP, because ive given up searching for the "sweet spot"!
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ORIGINAL POST
I tried something on the way home in my car (f20 125i msport bmw rwd). Ive never really would say I practice sim driving on the road. I tried swerving left and right really quickly. Which is something ive been comparing in the sims im playing. I know this sounds silly, but I remember someone saying how good a set of physics are by, aggressively going left and right and see if the tyres slip (bite and slip ) as you get faster and more intense.

To my surprise (okay I wasn't do track speeds but its all relative) my cars was quite sharp on its front end, they front tyres felt connected to the road and there wasn't much roll in the car. (probs due to the msport suspension) only as I got faster did the tyres start to slip, but that is also 220bhp through the rear.

Anyway I got in and tried the Wttc bmw, which is a tad similar okay no where near but you know what I mean. To my dismay the race spec car felt horrid, it felt squishy on it front suspension felt quite numb up front, and felt like this was the road car.!! When you do the motion I was doing In my car you get a sort of a sway going, like a pendulum effect. THIS IS WHATS KILLING RRE FOR ME. many a times ive popped out of a slipstream and ive had this awrkward sway feeling. Sorry it feels wrong, You don't feel like your connected to the road the suspension doesn't feel responsive and confidence isn't gained this way.

So I tried another sim that im getting back into at the mo (excusing its dire AI) and that's AC. I popped into the BMW m3 (another similar car) and tried the old swerve down the Monza straight ... and there it was that felt like my car.. and it did. it felt responsive tyres dug and bit like a tyre under load, I could feel the suspension doing its work....and I wont lie it felt like I was driving my car, just a bit more of an expensive version lol.

obviously in both sims and in real life if I kept the throttle and swerving up I would end up in heading the other way. But in RRE its that transition between getting into the slide, and the feeling of that bite. The feeling of the front end on cars and suspension, just isn't felt imo in RRe. Okay setups could help, but it feels to far deep to fix purely by setups.

Look im not here to bash, its purely critism, that I think S3, if they wanted to could sort out and make this shine. You guys know im a backer of RRe..

 

[James Cook]

The one thing i am going to say about this is.
FFB shouldn't be a maybe or if or try that and this.
Some car feels good, some i have to change or tone it down the ffb.
We need an official setting, endorse and recommended by S3 for each wheel on the market.

I currently have a t300 rs and i am always tweaking it, it feels great and on point but someone else will feel something different and that is where this title needs to be better. We need a T300 rs( or whatever wheel you have) selection and a recommended button.

Totally agree with this. Some kind of default settings for each wheel would be a real help, even if they only serve as a suggested base to tweak from.

In my opinion, FFB setup in R3E is a little too complex. I find I spend far too much time messing about with settings, some of which aren't explained very well in-game, and in the end I'm not entirely satisfied with the results. For instance, there's no way of accurately establishing the point at which FFB forces are clipping. I'm not a fan of adjusting settings for different drivetrains either (FWD vs RWD). It's too much of a faff.

As it stands rF2 still delivers the best FFB, closely followed by GSC. In my opinion of course. What I like about rF2 is you simply set the car-specific FFB multiplier (preferably to avoid clipping) which is roughly the same for most cars and that's it really. The FFB is excellent regardless of the car. The sim tells the player how the car and road surface should feel, not the other way round.

GSC just feels right without the need for much adjustment.

R3E takes a subjective approach to FFB. The player adjusts various aspects of FFB to preference. It's like messing about with EQ on a piece of audio equipment. That's fine, I'm just not sure it's right.

 

[Connor Caple]

I found the opposite to you, @James Cook .

rF2 FFB for me was horrible because, unlike Georg and me, they do not think that the wheel should provide the maximum amount of information to the player. They only simulate the steering rack forces.

To me, rF2 as it comes has ZERO useful FFB. You get no slip angle feedback and the only sense of loss of grip is a small change at the steering rack AFTER the back end starts to rotate around you.

I fiddled with their FFB for two weeks before I finally found the legacy settings from rF1 that were only available in a config file that I had to 'edit with notepad, start the game, test, repeat'. Far too much work for something that should be available in a menu setting!

 

[Andi Goodwin]

ok ... rf2 actually loads the type of wheel that you have , look in rf2/userdata/controller after that it then gives a few options that you can tweak ; dead zones etc and multiplier based on the car

Ac believe it or not does the same with a few tweaking options

gsc does similar then passes the ffb output through a plugin realfeel that then tweaks the options (from the base rfactor 1 settings) sorry gsc guys if im talking

And finally each wheel in r3e has a default profile and then does the same , offers options

through out the history of simracing games its been the same pretty much there is a default and an option to tweak a little and if that wasnt enough you could drag out the text editor

Now if you dont like the default you tweak , if you do you dont , but basically across most thats how it works

so basically your request for some sort of default setting is there .... and in reality r3e's latest ffb is a lot closer to rf2 than you might believe config wise (have a look)

i try really hard to both understand the subject and read what people write (without now sounding like a right git)
sometimes i wish everyone else took the time

Andi

 

[nikh]

I`ve spent more time with RRE than with any other sim for years, but I too can`t shake the feeling that there`s something wrong with the way the cars handle. I`m not sure whether it`s the physics of the cars or- more likely- that the game`s steering wheel programming is off.
This is the only sim that I can remember where it feels as though I`ve spent more time fiddling with the wheel settings than driving . In fact, I can`t recall changing any wheel settings at all (other than the strength, or maybe to reverse the feedback) in the likes of GSCE or AC; nor indeed any of SimBin`s previous efforts. Maybe it`s just all got too complicated: Too many variables to tinker with. All those lateral forces, vertical forces, overall force, steering rack force, blah blah blah. Just give me the old simple settings and let me get on with driving. I want to spend my time playing with car settings and testing them out, not endlessly searching for some elusive steering wheel setting, which may or may not exist. As someone else posted elsewhere: Making things harder (more complicated) doesn`t necessarily make for a better game. I will persist with this game because I believe the potential is huge. Unfortunately, for an average driver like me, there`s a sense that something`s broken.

 

[Ernie]

In my opinion, FFB setup in R3E is a little too complex. I find I spend far too much time messing about with settings, some of which aren't explained very well in-game, and in the end I'm not entirely satisfied with the results. For instance, there's no way of accurately establishing the point at which FFB forces are clipping. I'm not a fan of adjusting settings for different drivetrains either (FWD vs RWD). It's too much of a faff.

As it stands rF2 still delivers the best FFB, closely followed by GSC. In my opinion of course. What I like about rF2 is you simply set the car-specific FFB multiplier (preferably to avoid clipping) which is roughly the same for most cars and that's it really. The FFB is excellent regardless of the car. The sim tells the player how the car and road surface should feel, not the other way round.

GSC just feels right without the need for much adjustment.

R3E takes a subjective approach to FFB. The player adjusts various aspects of FFB to preference. It's like messing about with EQ on a piece of audio equipment. That's fine, I'm just not sure it's right.

Absolutely my thoughts too.
Yes, Simracers do like adjustability, but sometimes less is more. And yes, different wheels, different tech, different feel. But e.g. understeer should feel authentic and not how i set the slider in the menu.

Nevertheless, there are different wheel profiles. A default G25 profile is different than a GT3RS profile. And just to say ..... i'm quite fine with the default FFB settings for my GT3RS. It works quite well out-of-the-box. It will be interesting to see if or how different the FFB becomes, when my new CSW v2 hopefully arrives next week.

 

[Msportdan]

i endured again with the FFB settings last night going to recommended settings, and still the front end feels like the suspensions on sponge. Even compared with the GT3 mod (gsce) for the R8 against rres, and that felt better. It almost like you have to turn in a second early to compensate for the lag of the sway to turn in on time.

It does to me remind me how shift used to feel (without the excessive oversteer). I remember i was the first one on the shift forum who said these cars get silly oversteer, and i got shot down in flames, you cant drive.... your setups wrong....your this and that.. and guess what i was right. So i know when something feels odd.

Must admit RRe is still hell of a lot of fun with the AI, even if the physics are a little skewiff!

 

[Dan Allen]

I`ve spent more time with RRE than with any other sim for years, but I too can`t shake the feeling that there`s something wrong with the way the cars handle. I`m not sure whether it`s the physics of the cars or- more likely- that the game`s steering wheel programming is off.
This is the only sim that I can remember where it feels as though I`ve spent more time fiddling with the wheel settings than driving . In fact, I can`t recall changing any wheel settings at all (other than the strength, or maybe to reverse the feedback) in the likes of GSCE or AC; nor indeed any of SimBin`s previous efforts. Maybe it`s just all got too complicated: Too many variables to tinker with. All those lateral forces, vertical forces, overall force, steering rack force, blah blah blah. Just give me the old simple settings and let me get on with driving. I want to spend my time playing with car settings and testing them out, not endlessly searching for some elusive steering wheel setting, which may or may not exist. As someone else posted elsewhere: Making things harder (more complicated) doesn`t necessarily make for a better game. I will persist with this game because I believe the potential is huge. Unfortunately, for an average driver like me, there`s a sense that something`s broken.

Forgive me for being a bit green (especially on a sim racing forum of all places), but what exactly does reversing the feedback do? I have little experience with FFB, my wheel didn't have that feature and I pulled out the rumble motors of my Xbox 360 pad (I absolutely hated the rumble in the pad)...

 

[Ernie]

... but what exactly does reversing the feedback do?

If you have the feeling, that your steering wheel pulls to the outside while going straight, instead of centering itself. There's an option in FFB menu, called "Inverted Force Feedback". For some wheels you have to turn it off, for others turned on.

 

[Dan Allen]

Thanks @Frank Lehmann , could be useful to know!

 

[Andi Goodwin]

some wheels motors/drivers use a positive feedback (thrustmasters) some a negative feeback logitech /fanatec : in the rcs files you can see , in isi based sims the default figure is 11500 this is then either 11500 or -11500 thats all ;

Andi

 

[James Cook]

It does to me remind me how shift used to feel

To me Shift 2 felt like the car would yaw around a central pivot rather than giving the sense that there are four contact patches. Pretty terrible.

For what it's worth I don't get that feeling with R3E. However I do feel the FFB still needs a lot of work to convey the physics in the best light.

 

[William Wester]

You can't please everyone, though I believe S3 is trying. They've revealed more FFB options than most games in an attempt to hopefully please a wider audience. Unfortunately options frustrate some, while others like to tweak. Initially after the latest patch I spent considerable time tweaking/testing and while I found the FFB very good I continued to tweak as the options peaked my curiosity - an attempt to reach the holy grail of sim racing FFB. Now that I have satisfied my curiosity I am fully enjoying R3E - I don't have any complaints.
If some of you aren't WMD members, wait until you see the FFB options they have revealed in Project CARS - makes R3E's FFB options look simple. With that said, it is too early to tell if they will expose all of these FFB options in the gold release. I myself would like as many options as possible - no harm no foul.

 

[Dan Allen]

You can't please everyone, though I believe S3 is trying. They've revealed more FFB options than most games in an attempt to hopefully please a wider audience. Unfortunately options frustrate some, while others like to tweak. Initially after the latest patch I spend considerable time tweaking/testing and while I found the FFB very good I continued to tweak as the options peaked my curiosity - an attempt to reach the holy grail of sim racing FFB. Now that I have satisfied my curiosity I am fully enjoying R3E - I don't have any complaints.
If some of you aren't WMD members, wait until you see the FFB options they have revealed in Project CARS - makes R3E's FFB options look simple. With that said, it is too early to tell if they will expose all of these FFB options in the gold release. I myself would like as many options as possible - no harm no foul.

True dat. You don't HAVE to use them just because they're there.

 

[Boby Kim]

I own R3E open beta almost two years now and i have bought a lot of content. still i find myself tinkering with the cars feel. It must be personal as i am the lonely ranger between all those who adore the R3E's driving model. To me its a weird situation. GTR2, Race 07 / EVO, rFactor 1 & 2, AC, i start them up grab a car and start racing without any assists. No problem to keep the car on track as i know exactly what the car is going to do. I can anticipate on the future movements as i see and feel the weight shifts. The only game i cannot race is R3E. I do not believe that i need to set the correct FFB settings. I believe that R3E is just not my game. Somehow im just not good at it. Maybe R3E is the ultimate hardcore racesim of them all. Maybe S3 has implemented such hardcore reallife physics that only the hardcore race fanatics can handle those cars...i do not know anymore. I do not regret purchasing a lot of content. As said before, i still think that R3E has the best car park, tracks and sound of all current next gen sims. And i hope that i will understand this sim somewere in the future. Meanwhile im putting all my quality time in AC. It is nice that there is almost a sim for everybody. There is no wrong or right, only a personal preference. But even that is just a personal thought.

 

[William Wester]

Mentioned in another R3E thread - "Mark Reynolds stated earlier in this thread "I wrote the physics for both Race07 WTCC and R3E WTCC cars.". I have driven the WTCC cars in Race07 and R3E and "to me" they react and feel similar. I understand there is some user preference and hardware induced feedback that may influence others opinion of R3E. All I know if how it feels to me and I'm missing nothing, and gaining things important to me, from the ever popular Race07. These guys (Simbin of old and Simbin/Sector3 of late) can't be "that" far off on their current product.

And I also enjoy AC, pCARS, and GSCE.

 

[Msportdan]

I tried your ffb settings briefly andi and it did make a difference tI felt better. didn't totally rid that sway feeling but its an improvement.

how I explain this bad feeling (sway) is that if your going down a straight (on the left) then pull to the right (not slowly but not too fast) - then straighten up again. (still on right side). Before the car actually physically straightens up it sort of sways a bit left first.This is so hard to explain, I can visually see and feel it. this slight move left is very minute, but its there. Its as if when you have recentered the wheel to straighten up it goes past the centre of the wheel to the left. thus moving the car.

man this is hard to word.

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

like a boat?

weight transfer/shifting

 

[Msportdan]

yeah like weight transfer as. I wonder if the suspension just needs tightening up.

In gsc for example I do that same move and the car snaps back in line as if on proper sport suspension.

that's what im getting at.

 

[Msportdan]

okay so I played with some of the car setup and nothing really was doing it for me. So I came to the conclusion that it felt that it (car) was overcompensating every corner. So I had a bash of playing with the ratio as low as 9-10 and it almost healed it, yes you have to work at the wheel on the tight corner..

im wondering if there is something wrong with the ratios to deg. I use 540 btw.

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

gonna try lower ratios, to see difference... but up to now it's only the adacgt3 cars to judge (thats atleast what i actually own with new physics).... still waiting for updating the old cars with new physics. The AudioGTO felt good, nice to drift, fits to the car.... so maybe it's some setup-thing and/or the ratios together with some minor dev-tweaks