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Featured Using Physics to Determine the Honda Power Gap: Heusinkveld Explains

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by Paul Jeffrey, Apr 23, 2017.

  1. Paul Jeffrey

    Paul Jeffrey
    RaceDepartment Editor-in-Chief Staff Premium

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    Honda F1 Power.jpg
    Using the power of physics simulation, Reiza Studios Niels Heusinkveld has taken a look at how far the current Honda F1 power until lags behind pacesetters Mercedes...


    In something of an amusing eight minute video, Reiza physics engineer Heusinkveld uses the power of the mighty spreadsheet to determine the current deficit suffered by the McLaren Honda squad during the current Formula One campaign.


    Unsurprisingly Honda don't come out of the comparison particularly well, and with star driver Fernando Alonso likening the motor to a GP2 engine (which btw sounds considerably better than modern day Formula One....) it just goes to show how badly Honda have underestimated the challenge of modern Formula One engine development.

    With such a gap to the Silver Arrows, and with Alonso and Vandoorne having failed to score a solitary point between them in three races so far, it looks like 2017 will be yet another trying and character building season for the once all dominant McLaren Honda combination.

    McLaren Honda F1.jpg McLaren Honda F1 3.jpg McLaren Honda F1 2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
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  2. PhilS13

    PhilS13
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    VTEC is definitely not kicking in

    Edit : Liking the fun with flags vibe a lot
     
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  3. Monstro

    Monstro

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    my godness, 150 horse power gap to Mercedes or Ferrari, this is huge.
    and there is no way to fix it, what is the accuracy of this?
     
  4. RufGTI

    RufGTI

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    Honda's engine architecture seems to be worse. Because of this the McLaren often gets into technical trouble and the engines can't run at their somewhat-limit. Remember the Italian Grand Prix at Monza(!) where Alonso set the fastest lap of the race, simply because he didn't give a f about sparing the engine in this situation.
     
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  5. Ft5fTL

    Ft5fTL

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    I dont think they use the engine on full capacity with these vibrations, reliability issues etc. Surely they have some power deficit but 150 hp is a very big gap for a series like F1.
     
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  6. PhilS13

    PhilS13
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    The concept that gave Mercedes the initial advantage, adopted by Ferrari and Renault later, was actually pioneered by Honda in the 70s.

    The irony.
     
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  7. shimon.ifraimov

    shimon.ifraimov

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    gp2 engine!!! gp2! ARRGHHHH
     
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  8. Sky

    Sky

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    they should let them stick the super gt engine in. at least it would sound better.
     
  9. neuer31

    neuer31

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    Assetto Corsa is pretty inaccurate, especially because they use table readout physics ...

    150 bhp is pretty unrealistic, they would be more than 3 sec behind, per lap (race pace)

    This article is pretty bad - its really bad journalism - there are personal opinions in the article (ie. F1 sounds better than GP2, which is an opinion and not a fact) ....
    This article in fact was not even thinking about if AC can do such "realistic" calculations ... this here reads like advertisment by Kunos, a "so called" simulation

    Correction: I did accidentally exchange Reiza with Kunos - oopps apology.... still i stand behind my opinion ... this article is bad journalism - and using a sim to determine how big the gap is is ridiculous - I would say the same for any actual top sim (ie. rF2) available right now

    mod edit: I don't see any correction here, the AC/Kunos stuff is still there

    personal edit: Thats because I normally don't edit my original writing ... see there is a "Correction" section at the end - or are people failing to read that because its at the end? - so I made the correction now BOLD ... should help hopefully
     
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  10. m_mirk

    m_mirk
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    like Niels said it is a approximation. The physics have much more parameters, but alot of them should be equal between cars or not relevant at top speed. So I also think this is a good and easy approximation. You could also use it to estimate fuel consumption at different speeds on the autobahn.
     
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  11. Leonardo Chaves

    Leonardo Chaves

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    That's the guy from Reiza/Automobilista, i really have no clue how you managed to drag AC into this one...
     
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  12. Amir Vodokotlic

    Amir Vodokotlic

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    Sorry but that can't be accurate.

    Honda problem is battery and deployment.

    Didn't Zak Brown or Eric at Bahrain they run out of deployment half way into lap.

    Alonso was doing fine in corners, they seem to have good downforce maybe run more drag?

    But their battery power seems to be garbage.
     
  13. Glaurung

    Glaurung
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    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Majuh

    Majuh

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    Niels Heusinkveld is the guy behind Automobilista, not Assetto Corsa...
     
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  15. neuer31

    neuer31

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    My fault ... still my opinion stands
    this article is bad journalism - and using a sim to determine how big the gap is is ridiculous - I would say the same for any actual top sim (ie. rF2) available right now
    Todays Sims are just not accurate enough to even do a correct approximation
    150 bhp difference never ever can be true ...
     
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  16. erniedaoage

    erniedaoage
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    You clearly haven't understand what this video is about. It has nothing to do with a certain sim, he just shows you some calculations about mathematics and physics. But maybe a bit hard to understand without some knowledge of advanced mathematics.
     
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  17. Celestiale

    Celestiale
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    But it would break down even before the start of the race unlike the F1 engine who does at least half a race on average before it breaks down :laugh:

    So 99% of today's industry is "ridiculous"? True expert here....
     
  18. natedogg1867

    natedogg1867

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    Hmm, how does this famous quote go...

    "It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt."
     
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  19. PhilS13

    PhilS13
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    Don't expect this to be accurate it's a rough ballpark figure. All Niels calc is saying is you need ~150 hp extra to keep these these cars at a constant 16 kph higher speed when around 320 kph. This is pretty much the best that can be done in a 8 minute video with math simple enough that most can understand.

    The speed gaps are lower in Q which screams poor MGU-H to MGU-K direct transfer and/or bad fuel economy. If you are struggling in those areas of course you will get big top speed deficit in a race, exaggerating the "power" deficit.
     
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  20. Ft5fTL

    Ft5fTL

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    This was posted at Japan after the first race and FW17 from f1technical translated it:

    "According to the latest information, in 2017 machines where the engine full opening rate and air resistance increased, the power has a 0.2 second / 10 kW (about 13.4 horsepower) impact on lap time. Even if the Honda's power unit is 100 horsepower inferior to Mercedes AMG (although there is not much difference in reality), the lap time is only 1.49 seconds difference. The difference of 2.2 seconds from the top in Q2 is found to be due to the inferior performance of both the car body and the power unit being inferior."