The Crazy Russians did it...997 GT3 RSR and COTA

[speedrcr]

Hi slightly new to the forums as I just recently got AC. Used to play GTR2 and Race07 alot back in the day...more recently GT5 and GT6.

Did anyone see this!!! Released yesterday!!!

I'm in the process of checking it out...

Porsche 997 GT3 RSR

<Mod Edit: Link removed for breach of terms of service>

• Do not hotlink, post, attach, or upload other peoples content unless you have permission to do so. See our Copyright and Intellectual Property Policy for more information.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

Thread should be locked??????

Nobody has even provided a link to the content but simply talking about it isn't even allowed?

How about this; if you want to pretend that stuff like this isn't out there simply put your fingers in your ears and scream LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA as loud as you can while not clicking on this thread.

 

[Juris]

Irrespective of peoples opinions on stealing content I'm going to lay this spectre down and sorry to be all grandad knows best on this.

Whether you like it or not there are things called lawyers. KS are a small company. Some of the content being ripped from other titles belongs to much much bigger companies. I'm very sure those companies have lawyers. If I was one of the bigger companies who owned this content and I saw AC eating my profit margins as a result not only due to the theft of my companys work but due to the amazing sim they made I'm going to start asking my lawyers what I can do to stop them. Its very possible the licensor of the other companies content such as Porsche etc will demand action. Not everyone is nice especially when your taking their revenue.

Do I go after some little guy in Russia with no money and then try to knock out each of the thousands of individuals doing it across 191 other nations. No chance. I go after whats called the 'deep pockets' target. I'm going to sue the output mechanism, Kunos Simulazioni. I could try bog them down with a negligence claim, assisting in/benefiting from copyright infringement, injunctions to prevent them creating content or selling product until the plenary hearing, force withdrawal of modding tools. It goes on.

You don't even necessarily need to win a case in court or have any substantive case. If you can drain the other side of available resources before it gets there they die, you win. Many corps do it. Its not moral, its business.

Please don't use this stuff. It could help in painting a target on the head of AC & KS. Nobody here wants that. As your parents told you when you went to the zoo, don't feed the lawyers.

Edit: Just on the Porsche if it is from Forza thats Turn 10 from Redmond in Texas, basically their big brother is Microsoft. MS are locked in battle with Sony using Forza against the forthcoming Driveclub and someone thinks stealing their weapons for the battle is going to be ok. Thats the dumbest thing I've heard all year. Thats David and Goliath stuff but in real life David gets himself dead every time. Hope hes from the Urals and has somewhere to hide & hope KS aren't targetted.

 

[sonic911]

But you're stealing their profit because you're putting out the same product (that's theirs in the first place) for free....

It'd be an even better insult if the work was scratch made.....

Okay hypothetical:

So if I by some miracle made one of those crappy toy iPhone's they make for toddlers, one that functions nothing like an iPhone let alone a phone at all.The toy looks very similar to a real iPhone and I made it to give to someone as a present. I then as a human being would be considered immorally challenged because I used an iPhone (which Apple has rightfully made BILLIONS of dollars on) as a template.

How exactly would that be stealing business from Apple?

How would having a completely free Porsche model in Assetto Corsa, a PC simulation racing game by a small development team, be taking business away from the biggest arcade racer on consoles, made by arguably the worlds biggest game corporation?

 

[mclarenf1papa]

Okay hypothetical:

So if I by some miracle made one of those crappy toy iPhone's they make for toddlers, one that functions nothing like an iPhone let alone a phone at all.The toy looks very similar to a real iPhone and I made it to give to someone as a present. I then as a human being would be considered immorally challenged because I used an iPhone (which Apple has rightfully made BILLIONS of dollars on) as a template.

How exactly would that be stealing business from Apple?

How would having a completely free Porsche model in Assetto Corsa, a PC simulation racing game by a small development team, be taking business away from the biggest arcade racer on consoles, made by arguably the worlds biggest game corporation?

Read:

Irrespective of peoples opinions on stealing content I'm going to lay this spectre down and sorry to be all grandad knows best on this.

Whether you like it or not there are things called lawyers. KS are a small company. Some of the content being ripped from other titles belongs to much much bigger companies. I'm very sure those companies have lawyers. If I was one of the bigger companies who owned this content and I saw AC eating my profit margins as a result not only due to the theft of my companys work but due to the amazing sim they made I'm going to start asking my lawyers what I can do to stop them. Its very possible the licensor of the other companies content such as Porsche etc will demand action. Not everyone is nice especially when your taking their revenue.

Do I go after some little guy in Russia with no money and then try to knock out each of the thousands of individuals doing it across 191 other nations. No chance. I go after whats called the 'deep pockets' target. I'm going to sue the output mechanism, Kunos Simulazioni. I could try bog them down with a negligence claim, assisting in/benefiting from copyright infringement, injunctions to prevent them creating content or selling product until the plenary hearing, force withdrawal of modding tools. It goes on.

You don't even necessarily need to win a case in court or have any substantive case. If you can drain the other side of available resources before it gets there they die, you win. Many corps do it. Its not moral, its business.

Please don't use this stuff. It could help in painting a target on the head of AC & KS. Nobody here wants that. As your parents told you when you went to the zoo, don't feed the lawyers.

Edit: Just on the Porsche if it is from Forza thats Turn 10 from Redmond in Texas, basically their big brother is Microsoft. MS are locked in battle with Sony using Forza against the forthcoming Driveclub and someone thinks stealing their weapons for the battle is going to be ok. Thats the dumbest thing I've heard all year. Thats David and Goliath stuff but in real life David gets himself dead every time. Hope hes from the Urals and has somewhere to hide & hope KS aren't targetted.

View attachment 58763

 

[sonic911]

Read:

So you're all saying that you think it would cause a company like EA to irrationally sue KS for content they didn't create or endorse directly based on a completely hypothetical and improbable chance that the sales of their multi-million dollar mega franchise arcade-racer (which has its own movie now) would suffer catastrophic melt-down?

I guess to battle the irrational you have to become irrational yourself..

Don't get me wrong here guys, I'm pretty pissed about all this crap, but I'm not pointing the finger at the community. This is 110% EA's ****ing bullshit again. Here's a thought EA/ Criterion, how about instead of holding the rights to one of the most prestigious names in motorsports hostage, MAKE A BETTER GAME. All of your games after Most Wanted were completely forgettable!

It's really disappointing, I saw the massive potential in AC when it advertised the modding tools. I instantly bought it because I thought, "This is going to be my ticket to driving Porsche cars in a proper sim racer!". I don't regret my decision of purchasing AC, but it feels a bit like eating a box of Lucky Charms every morning only to find out, your friend stole the prize at the bottom when he slept over a few weeks ago..

 

[speedrcr]

It won't stand in court as KS has no direct link and is not responsible for third party content and won't be found liable due to the user of their software making what they are going to make.

Now if Kunos advertised it to boost sales of their product with said mod and supported it directly then they are encouraging the third part therefore liable.

This has been covered and pursued before by EA themselves by other companies for mod content ending up in their game and vice versa.

Also Porsche won't file against anyone...EA will, who owns the rights and licensing at the moment *(was said to have expired last year or year before...but word has been tight lipped about that).

Read a little about Fair Use and you will get the idea it will exhaust EA in pursuit of even this.

As far as Forza is concerned, EA leased licensing to Turn 10 for the Porsche DLC. Now I highly doubt they got this from Forza because the amount of work they would have to do in order to get it from a console game even using XNA Game Studio. Tell you what..I was contemplating buying a licensed model (not from EA, from a 3D artist) for Mod usage. I also have a model of a GT2 already and thought of trying to import it.

 

[Joseph Maxx]

It won't stand in court as KS has no direct link and is not responsible for third party content and won't be found liable due to the user of their software making what they are going to make.

Now if Kunos advertised it to boost sales of their product with said mod and supported it directly then they are encouraging the third part therefore liable.

This has been covered and pursued before by EA themselves by other companies for mod content ending up in their game and vice versa.

Also Porsche won't file against anyone...EA will, who owns the rights and licensing at the moment *(was said to have expired last year or year before...but word has been tight lipped about that).

Read a little about Fair Use and you will get the idea it will exhaust EA in pursuit of even this.

As far as Forza is concerned, EA leased licensing to Turn 10 for the Porsche DLC. Now I highly doubt they got this from Forza because the amount of work they would have to do in order to get it from a console game even using XNA Game Studio. Tell you what..I was contemplating buying a licensed model (not from EA, from a 3D artist) for Mod usage. I also have a model of a GT2 already and thought of trying to import it.

From what I understand the read-me notes clearly state that the mod was taken from Forza 4 so whether you can believe it or not the modding team themselves admit to getting it from Forza so..... And yes, there were links in the OP.

I'm done here boys.

 

[speedrcr]

Well i stand corrected. They got it from Forza, good for them Just looked and these guys aren't the only ones using Forza's models...people use them for things like this too:

 

[Andreas Knöpke]

Poor suspension on an illegally ripped car --> nuff said.

 

[Juris]

So you're all saying that you think it would cause a company like EA to irrationally sue KS for content they didn't create or endorse directly based on a completely hypothetical and improbable chance that the sales of their multi-million dollar mega franchise arcade-racer (which has its own movie now) would suffer catastrophic melt-down?

I guess to battle the irrational you have to become irrational yourself.

I have no idea how it could possibly be considered irrational to sue someone to protect their content. Its perfectly rational. If I was a shareholder I'd question the rationality of not suing. I've listed possible avenues of attack already. Lack of direct endorsement is not an absolute barrier to suit.

Its not a question of 1 car. Its when you don't act against 1 breach it becomes 10 or 100. Do you think if someone starts ripping catalogues of cars from next gen titles its not going to elicit a legal response. This is only Forza 4 but its like poking the bulldog in the balls. As the next gen consoles use x86 code its going to become a problem if they get past protective measures which is only a matter of time. This would have been anticipated by Sony/MS very early on in development. A strategy to deal with it will already be in place from the beginning of the consoles dev. I can't know what that is but I have no doubt it involves an element of active legal strategy.

If AC becomes a hive of ripped content KS will be attacked and they won't survive. Of that I have no doubt. If they become perceived as the pirates paradise licensors such as Mclaren etc will refuse to licence (from their own perspective and pressure from other licencees) meaning others wont even need to sue to nullify KS, they'll just let them bleed out.

 

[Ben Lee]

I was under the impression that copyright laws didn't exist in Russia or some such?

 

[Bryan O'Connor]

Who cares? If people wan't to use it let them. No point getting on the moral high horse.


And anyway (not that it's been reported here for some strange reason - Bram?) KS announced last week that RUF would be in the game, so we will have almost as good as the real thing i have no doubt in the future.

If AC becomes a hive of ripped content KS will be attacked and they won't survive. Of that I have no doubt. If they become perceived as the pirates paradise licensors such as Mclaren etc will refuse to licence (from their own perspective and pressure from other licencees) meaning others wont even need to sue to nullify KS, they'll just let them bleed out.

Almost every single modable game on PC has 'ripped' content. Show me an instance of where they have 'gone under' because of it. rFactor, GTR 2 and Race 07 didn't do too badly despite the masses of stolen/ripped tracks and mods for them.
Kunos have no say over what get's put into their game once they open it up, they may not like it, but legally there is nothing that can be done by them or to them.
Overraction much?

 

[Mr Whippy]

I don't see anything wrong with copying like this per se.

It's not KS's fault that people mod other games content to any other game, they are not in any firing line legally either. They don't provide or support copied content, they have just provided a game engine with their own licensed content.

RD don't want to be involved with that, which is fair enough and I support their stance on that to keep the forums out of trouble legally. RD are the only ones in any legal grey area here as they are providing links to the copied content, ala Pirate Bay or Megashare type infringements.


So we should respect RD and not post links. But seeing the video and conversions is interesting to see.


It once more reinforces my view though that converters generally, as great as they are, do a bad job because they don't put the original effort into the artwork they use.

Just look at the Porsches dash board. What is it made of? High gloss plastic? Don't race cars get flocked dash boards?
Performance looks out too, so no consideration for that either.

If you're gonna do this, do it well. Just doing a conversion isn't praise worthy, doing a conversion that out-shines the default content is praiseworthy... but we rarely see it in my experience.


Dave

 

[Juris]

Who cares? If people wan't to use it let them. No point getting on the moral high horse.

Almost every single modable game on PC has 'ripped' content. Show me an instance of where they have 'gone under' because of it. rFactor, GTR 2 and Race 07 didn't do too badly despite the masses of stolen/ripped tracks and mods for them.
Kunos have no say over what get's put into their game once they open it up, they may not like it, but legally there is nothing that can be done by them or to them.
Overraction much?

There is a gentleman's agreement in the industry not to sue for content imported into anothers game on the basis it can become tit for tat. Its only a gentlemans agreement and is more relevant to companies who have large back catalogs others can focus on. Ks aren't in that position imho. As the consoles have now moved into x86 with the 8th gen and with VR allowing previously pc only style simming experiences I don't see that agreement lasting where big corporates are involved.

Companies like Simbin and KS are in the same small pond. They don't sue each other as a matter of course. MS/Sony are different creatures. rFactor, GTR 2 and Race 07 lived in that previous generation where PC's and consoles only brushed off each others territory when it came to sim racing.

Much of this stuff goes on behind the scenes in much the same way 90% of cases in my country on the civil side are settled on the steps of the court rather than within it. Codemasters have already issued take down per another poster. No I don't overreact much. I've outlined my concerns clearly but theres clearly no point in outlining them here.

 

[speedrcr]

In the past EA, Activision, Bohemia Interactive, Ubisoft, etc have tried to sue and have been sued before for this almost the same thing over and over

So in affect if they pursue a suit then their judgments can be overturned, then they can possibly be in turn liable. There's no gentleman's agreement, it's in fear they will get sued themselves.

Take for instance them getting sued recently for using Bell Helicopters in Battlefield 3. They state fair use. Now that case might be slightly different but if you go back to BF2 there was a lot of converted mod content that was used from other games that you guys don't know of and that some sought a suit with EA, also because of third party content. As I stated, this ground has been covered and the video games developers\publishers are NOT remotely close to being held liable for the content the community makes for the game whether "ripped" or not. They have no control over it and the courts have easily found that.

Been into modding for about 10 years now and this is nothing new as you guys are seemingly flogging these fellas for.

It's all about how much one's business will impact ones current business model and how much will they get for the suit. Nothing much, if anything EA and their lawyers know that it's too risky and not likely anyone will sway on the side of the big publisher company going after a small company for what some fans did for the game. They know Kunos is not held liable. Plus EA will more than likely see that their license with Porsche is almost up if not already and wonder if it's within reason to keep paying Porsche for the license (which I'm sure Porsche will want a premium for it now).

As for interior's of race cars, they are metal and plastic...no special sheen or "flocking". Some stuff that matters like steering wheel etc are done in Alcantra or a special material for grip. A street car version GT3 or RS has a bit more for that nice interior. They are race cars so they are quite rough looking on the interior. Go to a race, do a pit walk sometime and see what it really is all about.

I for one have seen these and sat in one and I have to say it's a good job for the most part:

(my pic below on the paddock at COTA...other interior shots are external sources)

 

[Pedro Cunha]

...unfortunately this discussion is useless.
...if only there was a way to stop piracy.

 

[speedrcr]

Piracy is only when you use a product for in it's intended use with no payment and distribute. Intended use...as an Xbox game that has died and they have moved on to a new version.

This doesn't impact the artist nor the company especially for a game that isn't for sale new anymore.

I can't see why people can't see this ..... It's so simple people.

 

[sfef]

no real car updates for ages now ... thats sad

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Piracy is only when you use a product for in it's intended use with no payment and distribute. Intended use...as an Xbox game that has died and they have moved on to a new version.

This doesn't impact the artist nor the company especially for a game that isn't for sale new anymore.

I can't see why people can't see this ..... It's so simple people.

I seriously doubt you been modding for 10 years... I'm a game developer (greenlight meeting in wednesday so i think i know what i'm talking about, keep your thumbs up) coming from a modding background. I could've not wrote that sentence unless respecting the unwritten rules of the community as a whole. People before me and i have negotiated the agreements with the companies involved on how and what we are allowed to do with their content. It is very very fair, unbelievable in fact if you compare that to companies like EA or Codemasters on the extent we are allowed to mod. So in response, we treat these unwritten rules with uttermost respect.

My stuff have been stolen in the past, i haven't earned a penny out of it but i still went, requested and succesfully shut down whole websites because of stolen, illegally converted material. It's a grey area i'll give you that but respectable modders and conversion makers have very much a gentlemen agreement on content.

Simply put: without permission to use it, you don't use it!

If anyone asks about conversion from my material, i'll say "hell yeah!". If they don't, prepare for painful take down. I have less problems with some one taking a car from any title and trying it out on their own or sharing with few friends (how do you think i got the information if not from ripping tons of data... but i have NEVER shared any one bit of it...). Publishing it as "look what i did, all on my own" when in reality it is a shoddy conversion work, yeah, we don't even fart to that general direction. Most of people who say "i'm a modder" are actually people with some conversion tools and no clue how it actually works as a whole, no clue about individual game engines. As far as people doing privately what they want, we can't affect that, nor do we care about it. But once you upload it and share the link: nope, that's where the line is.

Stick to what is being published on RD, NoGrip etc sites that are very strict about what they can and can not release. Everything else is stealing and we don't care about if it really hurts someone or not, it's a principle: ask for permission first. If you don't get it, tough luck. If you scratch built anything, no one is going after you (unless we are going to the worlds licensing deals and exclusive right, which is something i've recently had to do and boy if someone releases a public, commercial version from content that we hold the exclusive right to : lawyer time...)

The fact that something is ripped from and old, dead game still holds legality. When someone wants to remake that content, they have to go thru scratch building. Compare the workload of conversion to scratchbuild and yeah, we care a LOT. It's money out of my pocket, quite literally as i get less work. And while it would be tempting to cut down my workhours and just convert (and obfuscate the data) something that is built already, we will still do it the hard way. Why? It's a question of pride in your work and if i get ripped off from hundreds of hours of work, even if i directly won't see the money, i'll ****ing tear your head off if i see you doing it.

Clear enough for you guys yet? If you convert between titles, you will be robbing us, the people who makes these games, our jobs.

 

[Juris]

In the past EA has tried to sue and has been sued before for this almost the same thing over and over.

So in affect if they pursue a suit then their judgments can be overturned, then they can possibly be in turn liable. There's no gentleman's agreement, it's in fear they will get sued themselves.

Take for instance them getting sued recently for using Bell Helicopters in Battlefield 3. They state fair use. Now that case might be slightly different but if you go back to BF2 there was a lot of converted mod content that was used from other games that you guys don't know of and that some sought a suit with EA, also because of third party content. As I stated, this ground has been covered and the video games developers\publishers are NOT remotely close to being held liable for the content the community makes for the game whether "ripped" or not. They have no control over it and the courts have easily found that.

Been into modding for about 10 years now and this is nothing new as you guys are seemingly flogging these fellas for.

As for interior's of race cars, they are metal and plastic...no special sheen or "flocking". Some stuff that matters like steering wheel etc are done in Alcantra or a special material for grip. A street car version GT3 or RS has a bit more for that nice interior. They are race cars so they are quite rough looking on the interior. Go to a race, do a pit walk sometime and see what it really is all about.

I for one have seen these and sat in one and I have to say it's a good job for the most part:

Simple question. Are you a lawyer? If you are please link to the judgements as I'd honestly love to read them. A Wikipedia linking to Fair Use does not count as its more a media soundbite.

Regards gentlemans agreement its a course of dealing. I've already stated its oft to avoid counter suit (like nuclear weapons MAD) and in small industries like simming why waste revenue on lawyers. They are the last resort. There is no way to know (privity of contract between parties) if there exists covenants not to sue. We'll never know so the only way to surmise is its considered course of industry practice not to litigate. That is not a binding contract.

Re your later definition of piracy as "Piracy is only when you use a product for in it's intended use with no payment and distribute. Intended use...as an Xbox game that has died and they have moved on to a new version." is frankly bonkers. One piece of IP or Copyright can be a mesh of other parties IP and copyright agreed between the parties so you may not be taking from one but many holders, some who are still using that content actively. Thats just one legal , not moral, aspect. There are many more.

IP is a disaster area of law. Almost every IP lawyer believes the system is out of control so I understand confusion in this area as its a train wreck globally but your statement that "It's so simple people" is far too simplistic and is simply wrong.

I'm off the thread as its like headbutting a wall and its clear people are happy to steal from others but I'm going out with this. If great Devs have their content stolen and are not paid for its reproduction they won't develop and so neither will the simming community. These devs make our genre as great as it is, don't spit on them. I'm out.