The Big One Bites the Dust: Volkswagen Out of WRC After 2016

[Tim Meuris]

VW being dirty is a misleading argument. I used to have a VW diesel and was part of TDIclub. The california air resources board kept tightening the noose around anything internal combustion, despite stopping the leading cause of smog years ago. VOCs were the problem (unburned vapors from gasoline and light hydrocarbons), but CARB went overboard about NOx and particulates when it comes to diesels. Oddly enough, the gas direct injection engines make more particulates and have a harder time than diesels, but as a new technology were given less strict standards. Ask a BMW or VW gas direct injection owner about carboned up valves!

What VW did was what tuners did to increase economy. Advance timing and reduce intake clogging EGR rate. Mileage going up means less pollution in the long run.

But no, the US/CARB testing has nothing to do with real world fuel use. A 6000 lb SUV with a v8 that is set for low efficiency tuning is "less polluting" in their books than a 3000 lb car with a turbo gas or diesel inline 4. Meanwhile in euro standards, that v8 has a hard time passing. That's why we have hybrid SUVs here that get 18 mpg considered as great, while Europe has the same SUV with a smaller yet powerful diesel getting 25 mpg or gas getting 20 (ford started that with ecoboost though) that they cannot bring here!

Last joke about what VW did. Well, in the TDIclub we helped other diesels too, such as mercedes benz and BMW. Turns out they too have cheated in similar ways to pass CARB for the few diesels they bring here. The only difference is that VW is a big player in the USA compared to Benz/BMW.

Interesting, i always heared they tampered with it that when the car was in neutral and the wheel didn't turn it knew it was being tested and it went into a sort of passive mode. I also read that vw did extensive research in making the car less polluting. They came up with a real solution with an additive called
'urea' if i'm correct increasing the building costs of each car with 300 dollars and then this cheating software as a second option. Well, we all know how it went down from there... today there's only one brand that is performing within these emission values: vw... if u can do it, why not do it right from the first time!?

on the other hand it is idd ridiculous with these new petrol turboengines exceeding these values. Where is the logic in that?

 

[Tim Meuris]

True fact:

VW nightmare didn't even get to stage 3. They are merely entering stage 2 of chaos. All of 'em cheat, in a manner of speaking, what matters is what you do or not that could you get caught or not.

Yeah, i find vw has reacted with lots of arrogancy. They were warned by america before that certain emissionvalues were way off. They neglected this and kept going down the same route. I really don't think it will have such a big impact on vw. And if cuts are made in the automobilesector: the racingprojects always go first.

 

[Grand Tourist]

VW should have used this concept as their experimental car for hybrid and emission testing in stead of installing malware in their utterly boring cars with an exception or two....

 

[Tim Meuris]

Never thought i would say this:
Not bad vw...

 

[Grand Tourist]

Never thought i would say this:
Not bad vw...

In Gran Turismo 4 this was one of the better super cars . With its W12 (also its name) of 600hp and lots of torque, weighing only at 1300kg and visible aerodynamics, this car today would be a serious contender for cars like the Huayra (bold I know) or the 488GTB. I used to race it quite often in GT, and with the option to fit racing tyres . ...well no explanation needed . Shame how VW failed to be inspired by this piece of car art and chose the dark side .

 

[robnitro]

Interesting, i always heared they tampered with it that when the car was in neutral and the wheel didn't turn it knew it was being tested and it went into a sort of passive mode. I also read that vw did extensive research in making the car less polluting. They came up with a real solution with an additive called
'urea' if i'm correct increasing the building costs of each car with 300 dollars and then this cheating software as a second option. Well, we all know how it went down from there... today there's only one brand that is performing within these emission values: vw... if u can do it, why not do it right from the first time!?

on the other hand it is idd ridiculous with these new petrol turboengines exceeding these values. Where is the logic in that?

The urea thing was not chosen because of technical issues. I have a BMW 35d and the urea system has had issues since day one. It's a result of CARB (california rules) being so stringent on NOx which has not been really proven to cause smog. There's a study called the weekend effect that shows on the weekend when less diesel trucks/industrial equipment are running, there's more smog because of more gas engine traffic (weekend shopping/travel). The theory is that gas engines produce more smaller (microscopic) particles than diesel soot which can't be seen- so it seems "clean" but these tend to stay up in the air longer and penetrate deeper into the lungs.

Also, they did find out that reducing VOCs do reduce smog which is why the gas pumps have that thick hose, to suck back the fumes.

But hey, science is as much manipulated by politics and belief as any other field- which is why research is not conclusive yet. A consensus is not the way to determine the truth.

 

[Tim Meuris]

In Gran Turismo 4 this was one of the better super cars . With its W12 (also its name) of 600hp and lots of torque, weighing only at 1300kg and visible aerodynamics, this car today would be a serious contender for cars like the Huayra (bold I know) or the 488GTB. I used to race it quite often in GT, and with the option to fit racing tyres . ...well no explanation needed . Shame how VW failed to be inspired by this piece of car art and chose the dark side .

Heh, the front reminds me a bit of the Veyron. This car did idd have soul.
But like the first Golfs were cool cars as well imo, unlike the thirteen in a dozen models they poop out now. And call me crazy but everyone seems to want one of these uninspiring vehicles in their driveway. Well, glad to be different...

 

[Tim Meuris]

The urea thing was not chosen because of technical issues. I have a BMW 35d and the urea system has had issues since day one. It's a result of CARB (california rules) being so stringent on NOx which has not been really proven to cause smog. There's a study called the weekend effect that shows on the weekend when less diesel trucks/industrial equipment are running, there's more smog because of more gas engine traffic (weekend shopping/travel). The theory is that gas engines produce more smaller (microscopic) particles than diesel soot which can't be seen- so it seems "clean" but these tend to stay up in the air longer and penetrate deeper into the lungs.

Also, they did find out that reducing VOCs do reduce smog which is why the gas pumps have that thick hose, to suck back the fumes.

But hey, science is as much manipulated by politics and belief as any other field- which is why research is not conclusive yet. A consensus is not the way to determine the truth.

So first it was all about co2
then it was nox
and now carb, right?
so today's turbopetrol engines are more polluting than modern diesels?

I thought VW went with the urea'solution' on their new models or am I completely wrong here?

 

[johnnymat]

I'm sorry to see VW out of the WRC.
It's too bad the rally team has to pay for the criminal cheating that other people in the company did.
And yes, it's criminal cheating, because the emissions they cheated on contribute to premature deaths all over the world. They let their arrogance override logic.
There is no way in hell that the people at the top didn't know what was going on.

 

[robnitro]

So first it was all about co2
then it was nox
and now carb, right?
so today's turbopetrol engines are more polluting than modern diesels?

I thought VW went with the urea'solution' on their new models or am I completely wrong here?

Co2 was never a problem for diesel. But to make less CO2 (better efficiency too), you need advanced timing which means more NOx.

NOx is what CARB- california set too much restriction on, not based on true science. Europe has many diesels and they dont have the smog california does.

Turbo petrol higher boost is polluting a lot because at higher power they have to run extra fuel to prevent detonation/ping.
but the worst is the direct injection petrol-gasoline engine because it makes more tiny tiny particles than diesel or regular gas engine.

A lot of this technology is set up for politics. The political system sets up the rules based on what science tells them, but science is very much helped by government, haha. Yeah VW uses urea in the newer cars.

 

[gamer19]

Actually... since you all step deep into off topic swamp - VW wasn’t alone.
Here, if you believe these ...relatively known source, called Independent.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ing-emission-levels-says-expert-a6668611.html

 

[johnnymat]

NOX emissions have been associated with approximately 60,000 premature deaths annually in the U.S. I'm not saying this is all the fault of VW, but their criminal cheating certainly helped contribute to it.

 

[ronniej]

Starting to see a trend.....This stuff costs lots and lots of money, and corporations, governments, companies, and people are trying to hold on to more of it. Simple. This isn't about cheating imo.

 

[4 8 15 16 23 42 108]

Will Ogier really join Malcolm Wilson?

 

[Tim Meuris]

NOX emissions have been associated with approximately 60,000 premature deaths annually in the U.S. I'm not saying this is all the fault of VW, but their criminal cheating certainly helped contribute to it.

You are one of the few people that make this conclusion, I am one of those as well.
There's been almost no attention for this aspect in the dieselgate scandal, and in the end it's the most important one!

Take that death number. Take the total amount of cars. Take out of that total amount all the vgacars driving around (which is a lot!!)and calculate the extra emissions these cars put into the air. They have extra deaths on their conscience! And no one seems to even think about this.

This is why I think VW should be fined into eternity.

 

[Tim Meuris]

Actually... since you all step deep into off topic swamp - VW wasn’t alone.
Here, if you believe these ...relatively known source, called Independent.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ing-emission-levels-says-expert-a6668611.html

You are absolutely right. Every carmaker cuts corners, every single one.
I think the emission readings of all brands should be multiplied with AT LEAST 3 or 4 times.
But to create software specifically targeted at cheating with motormanagment to mislead emission readings actually blowing out 40 times as is allowed, is more than a bridge too far imo, especially when you are the biggest carmanufacturer in the world. Than the effect of all this is even bigger!

 

[Tim Meuris]

Co2 was never a problem for diesel. But to make less CO2 (better efficiency too), you need advanced timing which means more NOx.

NOx is what CARB- california set too much restriction on, not based on true science. Europe has many diesels and they dont have the smog california does.

Turbo petrol higher boost is polluting a lot because at higher power they have to run extra fuel to prevent detonation/ping.
but the worst is the direct injection petrol-gasoline engine because it makes more tiny tiny particles than diesel or regular gas engine.

A lot of this technology is set up for politics. The political system sets up the rules based on what science tells them, but science is very much helped by government, haha. Yeah VW uses urea in the newer cars.

your last paragraph nails it. I think vw has made a BIG mistake but the government is almost equally as much responsible for this by creating these stupid, worthless tests were you are almost encouraged to start cheating

 

[robnitro]

NOX emissions have been associated with approximately 60,000 premature deaths annually in the U.S. I'm not saying this is all the fault of VW, but their criminal cheating certainly helped contribute to it.

Again, the weekend effect showed that it is not NOx but VOC's and smaller particles that create MORE smog on weekends that have more gas and less diesels. Gas engines run low NOx , they don't run lean like diesels.
I'm tired of tunnel vision science that starts with an assumption and works to prove it. The same kind of science came up with charts that proved at the time that the earth was the center of the solar system. Yes, they had proof and data. You can prove anything with statistics. The truth, requires more than just studies, but actual observation:

The weekend effect:
https://www.aei.org/publication/epa-rule-is-making-ozone-smog-worse/
"On the other hand, at low VOC-to-NOx ratios–a “VOC limited” condition–reducing VOC reduces ozone, while reducing NOx increases ozone."

All the models in the world didn't see this, because they were paid not to.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair

So,, maybe if more car companies exposed this, there could be a reopening of the studies. But then, they would be dismissed as having a self interest in a result. Whats funny is the environmentalists are never blamed for the same thing - having a selfish self interest (their own industry). It's a political joke.

While I have my x5 35diesel in the shop for recalls, I have a 2 liter 3 series 328. Funny, both get +-1 mpg on similar driving conditions. Diesel is "so bad" to the masses but how is it that a truck weighing 1500 lbs more, 1 liter/2 cylinders more, 50 hp more and has worse aero gets almost the same mileage as a modern direct injection gas turbo engine.

 

[Tim Meuris]

Again, the weekend effect showed that it is not NOx but VOC's and smaller particles that create MORE smog on weekends that have more gas and less diesels. Gas engines run low NOx , they don't run lean like diesels.
I'm tired of tunnel vision science that starts with an assumption and works to prove it. The same kind of science came up with charts that proved at the time that the earth was the center of the solar system. Yes, they had proof and data. You can prove anything with statistics. The truth, requires more than just studies, but actual observation:

The weekend effect:
https://www.aei.org/publication/epa-rule-is-making-ozone-smog-worse/
"On the other hand, at low VOC-to-NOx ratios–a “VOC limited” condition–reducing VOC reduces ozone, while reducing NOx increases ozone."

All the models in the world didn't see this, because they were paid not to.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair

So,, maybe if more car companies exposed this, there could be a reopening of the studies. But then, they would be dismissed as having a self interest in a result. Whats funny is the environmentalists are never blamed for the same thing - having a selfish self interest (their own industry). It's a political joke.

While I have my x5 35diesel in the shop for recalls, I have a 2 liter 3 series 328. Funny, both get +-1 mpg on similar driving conditions. Diesel is "so bad" to the masses but how is it that a truck weighing 1500 lbs more, 1 liter/2 cylinders more, 50 hp more and has worse aero gets almost the same mileage as a modern direct injection gas turbo engine.

so in short:
VOC's is gas emission
NOC is diesel emission, right?

 

[johnnymat]

Again, the weekend effect showed that it is not NOx but VOC's and smaller particles that create MORE smog on weekends that have more gas and less diesels. Gas engines run low NOx , they don't run lean like diesels.
I'm tired of tunnel vision science that starts with an assumption and works to prove it. The same kind of science came up with charts that proved at the time that the earth was the center of the solar system. Yes, they had proof and data. You can prove anything with statistics. The truth, requires more than just studies, but actual observation:

The weekend effect:
https://www.aei.org/publication/epa-rule-is-making-ozone-smog-worse/
"On the other hand, at low VOC-to-NOx ratios–a “VOC limited” condition–reducing VOC reduces ozone, while reducing NOx increases ozone."

All the models in the world didn't see this, because they were paid not to.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair

So,, maybe if more car companies exposed this, there could be a reopening of the studies. But then, they would be dismissed as having a self interest in a result. Whats funny is the environmentalists are never blamed for the same thing - having a selfish self interest (their own industry). It's a political joke.

While I have my x5 35diesel in the shop for recalls, I have a 2 liter 3 series 328. Funny, both get +-1 mpg on similar driving conditions. Diesel is "so bad" to the masses but how is it that a truck weighing 1500 lbs more, 1 liter/2 cylinders more, 50 hp more and has worse aero gets almost the same mileage as a modern direct injection gas turbo engine.

I'm not sure what your point is, but the numbers I quoted came from some of the major medical and scientific institutions in the U.S. I don't have the links anymore, but I'm not making this up. VW's cheater emissions have helped exacerbate a major health problem. That's a fact and they need criminal and not just financial punishment.