Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by RaceDepartment, Apr 5, 2013.
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Well written Kyle. I like that you mention both sides of the discussion. But I'd like to add that the fight wasn't unfair (Vettel - Webber) because it was about strategy. Vettel saved his tires the days before and had a brand new set of options while Mark had worn prime tires. So he was a lot faster than Webber even though Mark didn't had his Engine turned down. And I believe that Vettel even though would have catched up.
Anyway, all in all it is only about the final standings. In 2010, after Abu Dhabi, no one remembered that Alonso might wouldn't have had the opportunity to win the championship by getting fourth. Also in 2012 no one remembered that Alonso was helped to earn points in Austin while Vettel didn't had to expect, unlike Fernando, special care by the Team. This is no offense against Alonso (and has not a lot to do with the article itself) but I don't think anybody will forget Sepang '13 at the end of the season. I can imagine how they say that Vettel won just because of Malaysia and stuff.
No average driver can start from pole as often as Seb does just because of the car.
I don't really know how good Webber is although I watch F1 ever since but I wouldn't say that he is an average or bad driver. Vettel usually doesn't get extra care (besides Silverstone 2010?) or a better car. They have the same car and Horner said a few days ago that Mark and Seb both get the same treatment. They alternate who drives out on track first in Q or who makes the first pit stop.
I think Vettel is one of the last RACING drivers. Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi aswell.
Of course Massa, Button, etc. can sometimes be assholes on track too but the ones mentioned above show this killer instinct all the time
Again, nice review of the team order history!
Amazing article Kyle. Enjoyed reading it greatly Historical moments were nice to know. I believe team-orders should be there as it's a team-sport, and the drivers should obey them, unlike what Vettel did.
If people support Vettel for "he is a RACING driver", then he can also ram people out of track and they will say "he is a RACING driver" again?
Omer Said No. There is a clear difference between fighting and going too far. Senna in Suzuka went too far when he crashed Prost. Of course it wasn't the best thing Seb could have done but I don't like the way he is treated becuase of that. Alonso blocked Hamilton in Hungary and other drivers did comparable things but none of them got this kind of response by a lot of people. Sebastian is the black sheep of F1 and I don't really see a reason why he is so much worse in his behaviour than other comparable drivers
Alonso was penalised as far as i remember. But Vettel was not. Who is the black sheep?
Note that i don't defend Alonso as it was also a terrible cheating towards his team-mate.
That's the decision of the Team to penalise Vettel but I think they won't do anything regarding Webber in the past years. I think Vettel won't make this decision again That's part of the process of beco ing a great driver. Making mistakes, asking to forgive you and not making it again. I don't really see that situation as bad as it is often mentioned when you look at comments on YouTube.
And Here's one thing that I'd like to dedicate to every member of RD:
Thank you for the chance of having a respectful conversation about F1! ;-)
Senna wrecking Prost was politics. Jean Marie Balestre was stacking the cards in one drivers favour, and the other reacted in a way he felt he had no choice.
Vettel has nothing stacked against him. Why does he behave like this? I like him when he's being himself, but it looks like he's trying to create some sort of 'bad boy' image. HE heard Kimi swear on the podium, and he couldn't help himself Then he goes and disobeys team order and screwing over one of the most well liked drivers on the grid in Webber. He's a really nice guy, does he not WANT to be liked?
Bottom line is, Webber won't help him again. Now at this point in time, that means nothing. But it could mean something in Interlagos come November.
Did he ever helped him?
He let him past at Brazil in 2012, but only after getting in the way at the start of the race.
As I say, Webber not helping Vettel isn't really a problem for Vettel, but there may be just one moment when he needs Webber to move aside.
Webber helped Vettel quiet a lot 2012 or do you guys think Vettel would have been WDC if Webber would have performed like Massa in the first half?
The gap between Alonso and Vettel was only 3 points at the end and Webber definitely took more than that away from Alonso.
I do not really understand what you want to say in your first sentence Metalfreaky. May you explain it better?
I think He says Webber is racing to Help Vettel to win WDC.
If it is true then #Facepalm
No I am not saying Webber is racing for Vettel to win WDC, but it is bs to say Webber never helped Vettel or Vettel doesn't need Webber.
Why is Webber at Red Bull?
I don't really think it has something to do with Kimi or if his team mate is a popular man. Alonso, Kimi, Senna, Fangio or Grosjean could have been in car #2 and it wouldn't be something different for Seb.
Seeing his interviews (maybe not directly post-race) you can say that he is completly different from what he is on the race track, so I don't hink he wants to be a bad boy. As I already mentioned:
I think Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are pretty simmilar. Alonso is one who acts like a bad boy even off track sometimes, not always. (Gun picture before season final) But I like it. I don't want them to be like Soccer players (sorry for saying soccer to all europeans but I guess there are some Americans here ;-)) who are saying how good their opponent is. boring. I like them to be an grumpy on track and whatever they want off track. Just my opinion.
Btw: rhis is not really an answer to your post but as the first sentence fits to your post I quote yours
Yeah I suppose you're right Joe. He would have done the same to any team mate.
Which means it will be hard to find him a good team mate in the future. What will Red Bull do then? They would have to run a massively sub par driver that knows Vettel is king, because no decent driver will want to be Vettel's team mate (Well, not at Red Bull anyway).
That's true. But as long as almost any Red Bull Rookie wants to drive for them after a few years at TR they won't be in need to find someone. Which will lead to the problem that they might won't be able to win the constructors when Mark isn't driving anymore.
I really don't see any problem at all for RB.
Ricciardo is probably a bit faster than Webber, almost as consistent and definitely as unlucky
And da Costa might even be better than Vettel once he had one or two years of time in F1.
Plus, all F1 drivers have a fairly high opinion of themselves, I don't think there are many who would pass up the chance to prove themselves against Vettel.
How do you think that Ricciardo is faster than Webber, we will perhaps only know when/if he is in a Red Bull car
Also, i'm not sure that da Costa has what it takes to win 3 World Championships, but we'll see.
Ricciardo is an extremely good qualifier (for example he managed P6 in Bahrain in a car that was vastly inferior to everything but the backmarkers), whereas Webber often ends up behind slower cars on the grid.
And as far as da Costa goes: I said he MIGHT be better than Vettel. At the very least he's by far the best driver RB has produced after Vettel.
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