Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Mr.Latte, sorry for the late responce. Mr. Murphy visited at work and it's been a crazy week.

I assume you didn't exactly answer my question because what I planed isn't exactly possible.

I have had some time to do a little reading and if I understand it correctly SV only supports 4 channels per soundcard, so if I want 5 separate channels I'd need 2 soundcards for SV right?

Next, SSW stand for? And the EM in EM channel?

I'll be quite bussy for the comming 2 months so my replies may again take some time but I will be reading more in the mean time. Thanks for your time and effort.

Apologies, yes for Simvibe you would need two cards as you are correct, each card for some reason only supports 4 channels. SSW = Sim Shaker Wheels. You will find threads, including the developer =Andre= willing to answer your questions here on RD forums.

SSW supports 6 CHANNELS via a single card. Has a much cleaner and less frustrating UI but works in using .wav 48Khz audio files for the effects and not via tone generation like Simvibe. I have found this also can bring advantages as it gives the user more control in determining how effects may feel. Currently, SSW is available in a stable version and also a beta version with always improved or new features being added.

SSW does not label or use channels like CM or EM in Simvibe. When a user selects to use the 6 Channel mode in SSW it is here we discover more advantages with it over how Simvibe works. I'd put forward some just as my own opinion/preferences. Firstly in that with Simvibe you have to manually input and adjust individual settings/sliders of various controls for EM channels and CM independently. This can become a real pain in the backside when a user may have multiple layers or effects across both CM & EM channels. As with Simvibes UI being so basic, it's not even possible to copy and paste effects/settings from say CM to an EM channel. Therefore you can spend a lot of time faffing about trying to adjust, setup and configure effects on CM and then EM Channels.

With SSW, it is recommended people use Audacity to create effects or modify those that are available to their personal liking. You don't need this if you are using other peoples effects or just want to run with default settings.

When creating or saving a file you determine how many channels it is active for. You can then have individual effects goto all or whatever channels you want. Or create a file to have eg: 70% intensity at the rear and 30% on the front. Once the user has grasped using, it is very much less frustrating and time-consuming than Simvibe. Yet can allow a user to generate more specific or detailed sensations for different effects. The only main drawback at the moment with SSW is with engine effects but this is being worked on to be improved.

 

[Mr Latte]

Simvibe in Comparison to Sim Shaker Wheels

While this image is not trying to represent a good or totally fair comparison I have tried both earlier today for a back-back comparison and bit of fun:

Test Example:
Simvibe: suspension bumps / textures / bump surges
SSW: bumps/wheel slip/lateral G

Perhaps a more detailed and conclusive test is needed and configuring all the main effects inc "Road Bumps" that would determine what the car is doing on the track to make it completely fair.

Will do such, at some point using video footage not still images. Using the AI driving perhaps and showing a more useful audio tool like a "frequency visualiser" for the actual Hz being used in real-time by all the effects with each piece of software.



The thing to concentrate on these snapshots is not the taller visual highlights on the left with SSW but how much extra yellow there is in the bottom of each, showing much more activity with the frequencies below 200 and 100 Hz.

More activity I presume is showing in SSW as effects like "wheel slip" and "lateral G" are adding much more immersion detailing to what the car is doing. Well certainly more than Simvibes "bumps/textures and surges" are offering.

 

[Mr Latte]

Putting in some extra study and effort with lots of audio software tools for how I monitor and create my latest SSW effects within Audacity.

Seeing how the frequencies are used and what frequencies are used in real-time with the .wav via playback and then an overview of all the frequencies it uses.

 

[ricerracer]

I took a little chinese child from a sweatshop, was expensive flying him over but worked out cheaper than buying all the sim products of the effects he can produce. For example Yim shakes my chair when I go around corners, and then kicks the back of my seat hard when I crash, he also shakes it slightly when I go over bumps. Yim is currently learning how to replicate weather effects, he splashes water on my face when its raining and switches on the fan when the trees start to blow in the wind. But he needs to learn to splash only a small amount when its raining slightly and more when its raining harder; Yim is not perfect, but he is getting there.

 

[Mr Latte]

I took a little chinese child from a sweatshop, was expensive flying him over but worked out cheaper than buying all the sim products of the effects he can produce. For example Yim shakes my chair when I go around corners, and then kicks the back of my seat hard when I crash, he also shakes it slightly when I go over bumps. Yim is currently learning how to replicate weather effects, he splashes water on my face when its raining and switches on the fan when the trees start to blow in the wind. But he needs to learn to splash only a small amount when its raining slightly and more when its raining harder; Yim is not perfect, but he is getting there.

Ahh , well thank you for sharing.....

The problem with this (ahem, cough, smirk) is that "Yim" does not operate from the sims telemetry and using the feedback produced by that of your wheel and pedals, based on the sims operating physics, culminating and working together in unison. Unlike tactile or indeed a motion rig that can.

For such folks as you describe, we could suppose that things cannot be getting any easier with titles like P Cars 2 that introduce fog and snow. Or indeed FM7 with the intense heat of Dubai to thunderstorms and lightning. That is a lot to contend with while already having to deal with all you mentioned.

 

[ricerracer]

Ahh , well thank you for sharing.....

The problem with this (ahem, cough, smirk) is that "Yim" does not operate from the sims telemetry and using the feedback produced by that of your wheel and pedals, based on the sims operating physics, culminating and working together in unison. Unlike tactile or indeed a motion rig that can.

For such folks as you describe, we could suppose that things cannot be getting any easier with titles like P Cars 2 that introduce fog and snow. Or indeed FM7 with the intense heat of Dubai to thunderstorms and lightning. That is a lot to contend with while already having to deal with all you mentioned.

Haha I know but Yim is evolving!!

 

[Mr Latte]

Haha I know but Yim is evolving!!

Perhaps Yim may of been happier in the sweatshop
Change is NOT always better.

 

[Mr Latte]

My journey continues with seeking and developing effects in SSW to have sensations from different effects work well and hopefully feel good on multiple models of tactile.

This is why I do this with my own effect creation and try to study even the peak frequencies for each effect in hoping to pull every bit of good juiciness out of what SSW can offer.

 

[Mr Latte]

Once again illustrating the PEAK frequencies
@signman feel free to pass on.

This as a simple effect is often placed as identical over all channels.

In SSW we can have effects operating more to what we want for ANY specific Hz on individual channels. If desired these modified to suit, a tactile models operating characteristics, or a users personal preference. A gear effect doesn't have to be the same on all channels neither, as can be tailored on any of the available channels if capabilities of tactile units used by a users installation may greatly vary. This is part of the benefits with waveform creation making it so easy to alter, copy, paste effects.

In Simvibe we move sliders around a lot and try to guess how/what Hz are actually truly being used for the effect. Then have to manually place them in all the EM/CM channels, going back n forth making changes in each of the layers.



In the above is an example of a gear effect I have in SSW to suit a BK Advance or BK-LFE with a strong emphasis on the frequencies below 40Hz being utilised. While the Simvibe multilayer effect feels quite good I can easily adapt SSW to improve on it with more specific control.

 

[Mr Latte]

If anyone tries to tell you that "Audio Tactile" is some how dead or irrelevant because of new "Telemetry" based offerings. I can assure people with the right tools and equipment we can extract, still a LOT out of audio and control it how we need it including some superb low frequency vibrations for the engine detailing, be it on idle or on some cars, giving a really cool sensation at max rpm/redline. What else, improved stereo representation from various curbs, more brrrrrrrrzzzzz with tyres on saw edges, as well as sensing/feeling other cars alongside yours.

Quite a lot of track surfaces contain additional tactile activity as these have no telemetry values whatsoever, so are missing doing nothing in "telemetry" tactile options (yes those curbs that seem have no feedback) but all this can be discovered via audio.

CONVERGENCE
My goal is to create the best most immersive tactile immersion on a cockpit....
Nothing being sold today on any cockpit or by any company is close to what is possible in this area with using high-end tactile models, a lot of research, testing and pushing the boundaries.

WIP continues....



Here is an example of fine- tuning and working on having a balance of "Audio tactile" monitored and then utilised as best possible. Having frequencies controlled by "iNuke DSP" with specific soundcard settings to match the tactile being used. Then we can save a profile for the iNuke and soundcard to easily load up a preset that has been created to work with a specific car or sim tweaked for maximium potential.

Do you want your tactile mix via a single unit, a pair or more?

Any combination is possible to find a beneficial match and have the audio routed through upto 6 channels. Furthermore I have been using this successfully working in combination with "SSW Telemetry" based tactile both being felt in what they each bring for additional immersion possibilities.

Recent testing and research has been going well, one step closer to awesome tactile....

 

[signman]

I'm in the process of fitting my tactile, ordered a heap of stuff to finish the job.

Looking forward to this project Mr. Latte
This sounds very cool.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm in the process of fitting my tactile, ordered a heap of stuff to finish the job.

Looking forward to this project Mr. Latte
This sounds very cool.

Your going to need man nappies

 

[Miguel Gonzalez]

I've been looking at some simvibe solutions and im caught between options.

Dayton Audio SA100 Amp With 4 Aura Pro Bass Shakers Bundle:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sa100-amp-with-4-aura-pro-bass-shakers-bundle--300-9001

is the cheapest solution ive found. includes 4 bass shakers and an amp.

Dayton Audio SA230 Amp With 4 ADX Maximus Bass Shakers Bundle

https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...h-4-adx-maximus-bass-shakers-bundle--300-9012

would be the next step up and finally:

4 ButtKicker BK-mini-LFE with Dayton Audio SA230 Bundle

https://www.parts-express.com/4-buttkicker-bk-mini-lfe-with-dayton-audio-sa230-bundle--300-9008

would be the high end of the spectrum (at least within my budget)

How big of a difference would the amp/shaker combos make comparatively between the low and the high end? I'd like to do a chassis mode setup initially an eventually, possibly expand to an extension seat/shifter mode on top of the chassis mode. Would any of these be vastly superior/inferior to the other?

 

[asteroulis]

I've been looking at some simvibe solutions and im caught between options.

Dayton Audio SA100 Amp With 4 Aura Pro Bass Shakers Bundle:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sa100-amp-with-4-aura-pro-bass-shakers-bundle--300-9001

is the cheapest solution ive found. includes 4 bass shakers and an amp.

Dayton Audio SA230 Amp With 4 ADX Maximus Bass Shakers Bundle

https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...h-4-adx-maximus-bass-shakers-bundle--300-9012

would be the next step up and finally:

4 ButtKicker BK-mini-LFE with Dayton Audio SA230 Bundle

https://www.parts-express.com/4-buttkicker-bk-mini-lfe-with-dayton-audio-sa230-bundle--300-9008

would be the high end of the spectrum (at least within my budget)

How big of a difference would the amp/shaker combos make comparatively between the low and the high end? I'd like to do a chassis mode setup initially an eventually, possibly expand to an extension seat/shifter mode on top of the chassis mode. Would any of these be vastly superior/inferior to the other?

All of these options offer amps with stereo output. So no 4 individual channels (For simvibe chassis mode for example) , but dual stereo.. Also not really capable of delivering enough power for the BK mini's as well..(156 W @8Ohms)

Getting a good combination will help you make the most out of it for sure. Now if you need Aura's or ADX or BK's , it depends on what your rig is made of , placement , etc.

 

[Mr Latte]

I've been looking at some simvibe solutions and im caught between options.

How big of a difference would the amp/shaker combos make comparatively between the low and the high end? I'd like to do a chassis mode setup initially an eventually, possibly expand to an extension seat/shifter mode on top of the chassis mode. Would any of these be vastly superior/inferior to the other?

I dont think you can get a better performing compact and reliable 2 channel amp than the SM SL98
(See ebay/amazon or Parts Express for best prices). Not only have people been using them with the most common tactile models (below $100/£100) for several years but they support the 4ohm resistance most tactile use,have enough wattage and decent low-end response to power two Buttkicker Mini LFE.

It is limited on features like many typical amps. I still recommend the iNuke DSP 1000 as the best 2 channel amp available for tactile as it will power ANY tactile unit on the market (good if upgrading later) and has the best performance and features of any amp in its price point (for tactile especially BK models and resolving piston issues or fine tuning). However, the catch is that it is almost twice as expensive (depending on region).

As for tactie options....
ADX is prob the best performance/price on the market at the moment for USA region.
In UK Europe it costs approx £80 but in both regions and possibly others the BK Mini LFE is quite a bit more.

Yes the BK Mini has more "punch" but it is less refined and is prone to the "Pitson Issue" that is common for many users. ADX does not have these problems and Ive yet to find a user not happy with its performance at the price it costs.

In UK Europe the best price/performance may go to the Reckhorn 200i (gold connector model not silver)Coming in at about £45-50 Euro. When considering 4x it adds up. Although the ADX is regarded better (I've not seen any properly done comparisons)

Stop also and think long term, are you better with an iNuke DSP amp thats better and ready for anything in the future. To get it with 2x ADX perhaps than to go out and get 4 ADX but with reliable but more limited amps?

What suits or means more to you?
Performance or Quantity?

 

[Miguel Gonzalez]

Wow, lot of good info and quick replies I'm in the process of building an F1 style rig out of an 80/20 skeleton and mdf outer panels. I'm working on wheel/pedal upgrades right now and the next thing im looking at is a simvibe setup. Ideally i'd like to start with chassis mode on the corners and maybe in the future add on seat/pedal(maybe shifter) extensions. I posted those links because i though they would be more or less a turnkey solution. I wasnt aware of the channel requirements so that will take a little more research. I'll look into those SL98s, for what i plan to run those look like theyd be more than enough. In an ideal scenario though i'd like to get 1 amp that would run all 4 shakers for less clutter. As far as the shakers go i've never used any myself so i have no frame of reference other than price but i wouldnt go any higher than a BK mini LFE. I was originally looking at those little dayton audio pucks because they were really inexpensive but im not sure how much they would actually be felt throughout. The only real shaker i've seen reviews on were the BKs, i had come across some folks who used the aura sounds and i never even heard of the ADX untill i checked back at that website.

 

[Mr Latte]

*ADX are the new Aura Pro based model, its an ideal starting point.
Yes take care on amps that are mono based or not necessarily as good a purchase as they perceive to be.

 

[Ceolmor]

Hi @Miguel Gonzalez

I also have an 80/20 rig and am new to simvibe. As a newbie, I have two bits of advice:

• Don't expect to just buy an amp & shakers, bolt them on and it will all work brilliantly. You will need to think carefully about how you attach the shakers to the rig and isolation to get best results.

• Listen to the advice of @Mr Latte . He knows what he is talking about.

 

[Magiashkii]

i totally agree with Ceolmor on that advice... i have known of guys just packing in the tactile train and selling it because it just didn't feel good and just was very underwhelming. Placement is EVERYTHING and isolation is the key to success. Mr Latte has been working with me and really has made a huge difference in the quality of feedback. He is a tactile guru and make sure you take plenty of notes. i thought i knew something about tactile but after talking to Mr. Latte i wasn't even on the same planet. Just follow his advice 100% and you will be very happy with the outcome. His passion to find the best solution for a problem is amazing

 

[signman]

I'll second that !
His passion is on another level..300hr's testing I think.

I had my tactile all planned out month's ago.
6 Advance ..bolt them on and off we go.

Mr. Latte advised me to just use 4 but to also add a large LFE under my seat for
big bumps and a TST239 for engine rev's.

He sent me countess ideas on how to build a seat platform.
A box turned up full of isolation for me to test !

I'm excited to say I'm almost ready to switch on.
Have all my cable's, soundcard etc.

Just fitted isolation under my rig.
Will add some under my seat base to after testing as is.

I was going to stick an Advance each corner of my rig and a pair under the pedal's.
Rodney advised different..pair under my pedal's and a pair under or each side of the seat.

These are now mounted.
Going to have to leave the LFE and TST out oft he game for now though.

Looking forward to seeing what this is all about.

Big thank you to Rodder's and Des Kane ..both these fella's have been awesome.

Thank guy's.

Signman