Misc SHO Competition AI V14

[Shovas]

Shovas updated SHO Competition AI with a new update entry:

[Video] Another demonstration race with V13

Here's another example of how the AI behave in a 20min race. I even mess up around the 12:25 mark and lose a number of spots so you'll be able to see AI take advantage and then what it takes to pass those guys again.

I feel like I'm narrowing the gap from what the original AI were to what they should be given the limitations in GTR2.

It feels like future changes will be more and more subtle. I know some tracks are difficult to gain positions on and need RaceRatio tweaking and I have other...

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[fatal4you]

Could it be that in V13 test2 the AI in Anderstoop is too fast compared to Spa 2003?

Another question for SHO, does the AI adapt to the time of day, for example is it a bit slower during a night race (24 hour race)?

 

[Shovas]

Could it be that in V13 test2 the AI in Anderstoop is too fast compared to Spa 2003?

It very well could be. I use a 'rough feeling' for adjusting RaceRatio and that is done for each track. Because it's rough it might vary from track to track.

The 'rough feeling' is basically just making sure AI are competitive enough so I'm not passing more than 5 in a 10min stretch of a 20min race. In other words, if I pass more than 5 in 10 minutes or more than 10 in a race I make them faster.

I'll add a to-do to recheck those tracks.

Another question for SHO, does the AI adapt to the time of day, for example is it a bit slower during a night race (24 hour race)?

I am not sure about that. I haven't changed anything like that in this mod.

 

[deangelis7]

Another question for SHO, does the AI adapt to the time of day, for example is it a bit slower during a night race (24 hour race)?

no. unfortunately there's no such parameter in GTR2 that does AI slower/faster depending on the time of day

 

[Shovas]

I have a new version of this coming. Nothing big but I've found some gains I think are valuable.

- AI were too quick right off the line as if they didn't need a lap or two to warm up their tires. So, I reset RaceColdBrainMin back to original values (varying from 0.93 to 0.98, although most are 0.94 to 0.96). This, in theory, brings back a little more of the original AI personalities.

- I set RaceColdBrainTime=45 (default 120), instead of 0, so that AI would act as if they had the same cold tires you have. Still want to confirm this is actually having the effect I think it is. This would make first laps a bit more realistic. Right now it's like the AI are just at 100% instantly while you have to wait for your tires to warm up.

- Some tracks just had incorrect RaceRatio values compared to the Spreadsheet I use while tuning: Barcelona GP 2003, Barcelona National, Oschersleben 2003, Magny-Cours National, Anderstorp South. Just missed updating them, I guess. Now they're using correctly tuned values.

- I briefly checked AI Aggression's effect on qualifying times and it doesn't seem to affect qualifying times. It might still affect racing behaviour. I need to check. But if my RaceRatio tuning is enough then I might be able to undo my AI Realism=1.8750 (Aggression) tuning and free that up for users to modify that to their preference.

I still enjoy getting back to this mod because it's a sort 'hard mode'. You have to put in the laps to qualify your best and then during the race you will have to drive that well (give or take) for the entire race. You'll have front and back pressure to deal with for large portions of the race. And you won't be able to win from the back of the field. Much tougher but a much more rewarding experience, I feel.

 

[deangelis7]

AI were too quick right off the line as if they didn't need a lap or two to warm up their tires. So, I reset RaceColdBrainMin back to original values

hmm... I use 0.99-1.00 coldbraintime because GTR2 AI is too slow during the first corners and even first lap...so I don't think there's a reason to slow AI even more

- Some tracks just had incorrect RaceRatio values compared to the Spreadsheet

sorry but I found your ratio values a little strange...for example as for my racing experience AI on Magny Cours is quite slow on 100% compared to other tracks but on the other hand AI in Imola is way fast but in your mod you made AI on Magny Cours even slower (you put RaceRatio=(1.045815094) and you made AI on Imola even faster (you put RaceRatio=(1.070136375) in Imola)

 

[Shovas]

hmm... I use 0.99-1.00 coldbraintime because GTR2 AI is too slow during the first corners and even first lap...so I don't think there's a reason to slow AI even more

You might be right. The observation I was trying to correct for was that AI 'acted' like they didn't have the cold tires that I did and just sped away way too fast right off the start and all through the first lap. I'll have to make sure it's actually doing what I want it to do.

sorry but I found your ratio values a little strange...for example as for my racing experience AI on Magny Cours is quite slow on 100% compared to other tracks but on the other hand AI in Imola is way fast but in your mod you made AI on Magny Cours even slower (you put RaceRatio=(1.045815094) and you made AI on Imola even faster (you put RaceRatio=(1.070136375) in Imola)

It's possible I got some other tracks messed up, too, since I seem to have mis-copy&pasted for other tracks. I'll double-check Magny and Imola.

So, the guiding principle in all of this is simply "Make AI race performance match their qualifying performance" without regard to AI level.

My whole problem was that no matter where I qualified the AI didn't drive as well in a race as they did in qualifying.

So, regardless of AI level, if I qualified 15th, I don't want to be passing too many. If I pass too many, I increase RaceRatio, and if I can't keep up, I decrease RaceRatuio,

Here's how I go about finding the right AI level: I set a qualifying time and then watch AI times. If I'm in a good position then I accept that AI level and go to the race. If I want to be in a different position, then I change the AI level. Once I'm happy with the AI level, I go to the race.

Then, if my mod is working correctly, I should have a hard fought race where it's difficult to pass and to pass too many.

Let me know if this makes sense.

 

[deangelis7]

Let me know if this makes sense.

Hello Shovas! there are tracks on which the AI is generally very fast, both in qualify and in the race and there are tracks where AI is slow . So it can be some misinterpretation. For example you earn a low starting grid, something like 15-20th. And then in the race (especially if you have racecoldbrain= 0.93-0.95) you win back positions and think “oh, so I need to increase Raceratio”, but this is wrong conclusion. The fact is that I noticed that in general, these parameters by defualt (QualRatio=(1.0200) and RaceRatio=(1.0500) are good enough overall. If you increase Raceratio even more, then I noticed that in the race AI can set laps times faster than even in qualify, even up to 1,0-1,5 sec per lap faster than qual lap. It's unrealistic. According to my observations, for example in Imola AI drivers are very fast compared to other tracks, but this is not related to Qual/RaceRatio parameters. Actually it's all about the gdb file:
RoadDryGrip = 1.00
AIDryGrip = 1.04
That means, the AI drivers have much better grip than the player on this track. So if I see that the AI is slow compared to me on some track, I increase this value (AIDryGrip), and if I see that the AI drivers are too fast for me, then I lower this value. Sometimes on some tracks I adjust Qual and RaceRatio too but just a little bit.

 

[Shovas]

And then in the race (especially if you have racecoldbrain= 0.93-0.95) you win back positions and think “oh, so I need to increase Raceratio”, but this is wrong conclusion.

I see what you're saying. From my observations, though, it's not just positions gained in the first lap when they're slow because of ColdBrain params, they're just slow the whole race. And they don't match their qualifying performance(*)

*I know qualifying times are often faster than average race laps but in terms of general competitiveness those you qualify near should be competitive with you but they're not in stock GTR2. You can win a race from 20 positions back. It's crazy.

If you increase Raceratio even more, then I noticed that in the race AI can set laps times faster than even in qualify, even up to 1,0-1,5 sec per lap faster than qual lap. It's unrealistic.

Yes, you're onto something here. I didn't actually consider this or watch out for unrealistic laptimes during a race. I was only trying to get them to match their qualifying performance so that races would be competitive.

According to my observations, for example in Imola AI drivers are very fast compared to other tracks, but this is not related to Qual/RaceRatio parameters. Actually it's all about the gdb file:
RoadDryGrip = 1.00
AIDryGrip = 1.04
That means, the AI drivers have much better grip than the player on this track. So if I see that the AI is slow compared to me on some track, I increase this value (AIDryGrip), and if I see that the AI drivers are too fast for me, then I lower this value. Sometimes on some tracks I adjust Qual and RaceRatio too but just a little bit.

So, my question would be, if you increased those grip values wouldn't the AI eventually have unrealistically fast laptimes just like increasing RaceRatio?

And that would happen for both qualifying and race sessions. I find qualifying to be fine, I don't want to change that if I don't have to. I just want to tune something that will improve race competitiveness.

I do see how it's another way to increase performance, however. I'll write some to-dos to investigate those params.

Thanks for the details

 

[IMC '67]

The AIDryGrip and AIWetGrip values should mainly only be used if the AI have trouble staying on track. Just increase the RaceRatio value if you want them to go faster in the race. And no need for nine decimals... two are enough.

 

[deangelis7]

So, my question would be, if you increased those grip values wouldn't the AI eventually have unrealistically fast laptimes just like increasing RaceRatio?

no, because it raise AI speed in all sessions - P/Q and Race, whereas increasing only RaceRatio raise AI speed only in race

And that would happen for both qualifying and race sessions. I find qualifying to be fine, I don't want to change that if I don't have to. I just want to tune something that will improve race competitiveness.

then you are right. if qualify AI lap-times seem to be good for you but AI race speed is slow then you can raise only RaceRatio. But for my observations as I said before original Simbin values QualRatio=(1.0200) and RaceRatio=(1.0500) seems to me good enough for most tracks. My thought: If AI drivers seem too slow for you in race compared to qualify it can be talent files issues. Probably AI drivers have weak RaceAbility, Consistency, MinRacingSkill values that makes them much slower in race compared to qualify. Try to put in talent files something like that RaceAbility=0.1, Consistency=0.1, MinRacingSkill=0.99 and then AI race speed should match their qualify performance.
And also I should add that it's realistic when qualify speed is better than race speed. Because in the qualify you use aggressive car's setup, softer tires, less fuel and risk much more than in the race. In the race you should be much more careful.

The AIDryGrip and AIWetGrip values should mainly only be used if the AI have trouble staying on track. Just increase the RaceRatio value if you want them to go faster in the race. And no need for nine decimals... two are enough.

But AIDryGrip value adjust AI speed on the track in the same way for all sessions in dry conditions (I still don't touch AIWetGrip because I rarely race on wet track). For some tracks devs leave AIDryGrip=1.0 but for some others they increased it.
As I mentioned before I found that on some tracks AI is just slow for me in general and on some tracks they are too fast. It's easiear for me to win on Magny Cours for example but on Imola AI seems to me way faster. That's why I asked Shovas about changes he did. Because he made AI even slower on MagnyCours and even faster on Imola by adjusting RaceRatio values.
You can look in Magny Cours .gdb file devs put AIDryGrip=1.0 in it but in Imola .gdb file they put AIDryGrip = 1.04

but yeah I agree with you that it's not necessary to touch AIGrip values, I can adjust Qual and RaceRatio for these tracks to make AI more matching to my skill. It was just for me easier to change Grip setting and not mess around with Qual and RaceRatio

 

[Shovas]

The AIDryGrip and AIWetGrip values should mainly only be used if the AI have trouble staying on track. Just increase the RaceRatio value if you want them to go faster in the race. And no need for nine decimals... two are enough.

Was wondering when someone would ask about the precision It's just a result of using a systematic bisection search using an excel spreadsheet. The values after a while really do get that precise. No idea if GTR2 actually recognizes that much precision(*) but no harm in putting them in.

*Lots of other params have up to 5 decimal places in stock values so maybe it does

 

[IMC '67]

Changing a RaceRatio value by 0.01 on a track with a 2 minutes lap time generates a difference in AI lap times by something like a quarter of a second so no need for any more decimals unless you want to be more precise than that.

 

[Shovas]

Changing a RaceRatio value by 0.01 on a track with a 2 minutes lap time generates a difference in AI lap times by something like a quarter of a second so no need for any more decimals unless you want to be more precise than that.

This adds up over many laps, though, so if you just need them a little faster over a whole race then you need to be very precise. Normally nobody would ever try to be that precise by hand so that's where the spreadsheet comes in handy.

 

[Shovas]

Shovas updated SHO Competition AI with a new update entry:

[Release] SHO Competition AI V14

Version 14 (2022-06-20..2023-06-11)

• [Tracks] Re-tuned Imola GP 2004 as it was too difficult to pass.
• [Tracks] Re-tuned some tracks that had suspicious AIW RaceRatio < 1.0 values (probably due to mis-copy&paste from spreadsheet). Tracks tuned included: Barcelona GP 2003, Oschersleben 2003, Magny-Cours National, Anderstorp South
• [Game] Aggression is now free for users to change according to preference in-game. This was the PLR AI Realism parameter...

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[Zemlanin]

Hi! Please tell me, will there be any conflicts with this GTR2 GET REAL PHYSICS MOD? Thank you.

 

[Shovas]

Hi! Please tell me, will there be any conflicts with this GTR2 GET REAL PHYSICS MOD? Thank you.

Yes, there will as they both modify Location AIW files. You'll have to keep them separate for now.

 

[deangelis7]

I do see how it's another way to increase performance, however. I'll write some to-dos to investigate those params.

Yesterday I have made some testing AI (same class and same car) in qualify and race on Barcelona 2004 circuit. I changed in rcd files for AI drivers such parameters RaceAbility=0.1, Consistency=0.1, MinRacingSkill=0.99 and RaceColdBrain=0.99
in AIW I left QualRatio=(1.0200) and RaceRatio=(1.0500) unchanged on this track. AI strength = 100% of course.
Then I have run qualify and race (20 laps) sessions several times and looked on AI lap-times.
So usually AI have set laps in the race around +0.5-2 sec slower than in qual. I suggest it is quite qood and realsitic, but sometimes AI drivers even set nearly the same race lap as qualify and even faster, but it happened rarely. That's why I think that's difference between RaceRatio and QualRatio which is 0.03 is quite good enough.

also I decided to test Magny Cours and Imola circuits on 100% AI strength and I found that on Imola when I little lower Ratio values and put QualRatio=(1.0000) and RaceRatio=(1.0300) AI roughly speaking match my skill. On Magny Cours AI is slow by default values so I raised Ratio values up to QualRatio=(1.0500) and RaceRatio=(1.0800) to have racing with AI more or less competitive.

 

[adamb]

Shovas,

The Get Real Mod is not currently implemented in the Anniversary Patch installer - but I assume that if I run GTR2_SETUP and select your physics and and talent files on the appropriate screens, it will overwrite the Get Real mod files (Locations, Talent, Teams)

Is that correct?

 

[Shovas]

Shovas,

The Get Real Mod is not currently implemented in the Anniversary Patch installer - but I assume that if I run GTR2_SETUP and select your physics and and talent files on the appropriate screens, it will overwrite the Get Real mod files (Locations, Talent, Teams)

Is that correct?

Where the files overlap, yes, they'll get overwritten, but there may still be changes that affect SHO AI from files in GRP that do not overlap.

I recommend using a mod installer like OVGME to cleanly install and uninstall mods and/or using dedicated GTR2 install folders for mods that conflict.