SEASON 9 RACE 3 INCIDENT REPORT

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Sorry David T for tapping you braking for Rettifilo chicane. I could see that you maintained your line through the chicane, that was a relief. I ended up in the grass after trying to save the situation. I should have had more distance or gone inside.

and kurt clipping my rear at turn 1.

no problem valter, id actually thought this was kurt, sorry for the confusion kurt

Are you talking about the incident in the first clip in the video below?

If so, I strongly disagree with you both. In my view this was 100% David's fault. You couldn't have known what side to chose Valter as David was moving around the track in direct violation to what I said before the race:

(...)
-Stay on the racing line on the s/f (left side of the road). Do not try to brake a tow anywhere on the track; drive predictable.

-If you make a defensive move (e.g. move to the right side of the s/f), stay there until apex, do not move left again to get a better angle!

EDIT: Short version: This incident would never have happened if David had followed what I wrote before the race and stuck to the left side of the s/f straight.

 

[David Turnbull]

valter had no side to choose except to brake on his normal line, valter was not trying to overtake me i was trying to overtake the guy in front he outbroke me and i moved back over with plenty of time for valter to react, you make it sound like i was weaving to break a tow or swerving around, it was a predictable move, how many time do you see it week in week out in the f1, valter just outbraked himself and ran into my rear.

now onto the violation of what you said, i did not try a defensive move on valter, he was nowhere near enough to attempt a pass, and i did not try and break a tow, i moved out to overtake then moved back in, but im to blame because valter broke later than usual?

from this vid you can see that move that ive used lots of times during the race, show the car nose and move back onto the racing line, first part is the lap before the incident, valter is further back but brakes at normal place, 2nd part is valters view showing him closer this lap but brake 10-15m later, part 3 is my view, noticing valter closing really quick and trying to turn out the way of him, and the last part is........

 

[Valter Ostman]

I can see what you mean Nicolai. Just one of those things that disappoints you for a while.

Edit: The last part of the video is like the Devil reads the Bible. Changing lane when track is clear behind is not the same thing.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

The angel Valter's video was taken I could not see that you had a car in front of you David, and it did not strike my mind. Therefore I was puzzled why you would move to the right and then to the left again.

Now that I know you had cars in front everything looks different. I still think it is a just question to ask if it was right of you to move back to the racing line, I am not sure how far Valter is back... around 0,5 sec or so?

Valter starts braking with a clear view ahead right before 150 meter mark, that should be good enough, however, you move back into the racing line while in the braking sone, and Valter's opening disappears while he is in heavy braking.

The first clip in your video I think your movement is fine as the car behind is far away. However, in the second clip (with the incident) Valter is not that far behind, and in my opinion (after watching your video 3 more times) you should have stayed on the inside.

and i moved back over with plenty of time for valter to react,

I guess this is where we disagree, and also the fact that Valter outbraked himself. Look at where Valter is when there is no longer rrom on the left side... I would say that is at around 120 meters....

This is where others need to but in and with all their honer say exactly what they think themselves without being afraid of stepping on my or David's toes. Because if not we just agree to disagree like we did with the Anthony case last week and we move nowhere.

EDIT: If I was in Valter's situation, about half a second behid a car that is not in the same lane as me, I would brake at my normal braking point, iow I think I too would have been caught out in that situation.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Slight contact in small incident with Tim t1 when i checked replay, i looked in mirror for positions just before braking zone and really didnt expect Tim to try and out brake me there being couple car lengths behind at braking zone.
I think i brake slightly slow t1 and being cautious just trying to get car round t1 safely, i thought you were behind sos Tim i could have made t1 easier for you.

No other incidents.
Q lap ok.

 

[David Turnbull]

I can see what you mean Nicolai. Just one of those things that disappoints you for a while.

Edit: The last part of the video is like the Devil reads the Bible. Changing lane when track is clear behind is not the same thing.

its the same thing valter, nico used the post to say i was violating the rules, well he violated them too, only diffrence is there was an accident this time.

i dont know if i'll get my point across here but what am i supposed to do here, last race i get told off for having sync issues now this race im trying to leave space for peter by braking earlier and try get him on a part of the track that would minimise sync problems, with leaving this gap to peter valter couldve anticipated i was dealing with a fight at the time, i did move over into the braking zone but i did so predictably, and valter hit me from behind as he didnt anticipate i wouldve broke earlier that time, like he was closer to me i was closer to peter, i move out, move back in while braking, i cant see what wasnt predictable about this, i happened the lap before albeit from a further gap, he could clearly see i had a car in front at the time and moved out of his slipstream and back in to get more stable braking, its all about anticipation, i anticipated not getting to close to peter at all in turn 1 valter didnt anticipate i was dealing with peter and the sync issues i didnt want to happen again.

if valter was close enough to me on the straight, id have stayed out right to defend my position but i saw no reason to as he had plenty of time to react when i moved back over, theres an 80-100m gap between us when i start moving back over, the violation i dont feel applys either as i wasnt breaking a tow or trying to defend, if i hadve been then yes its a clear violation of what you said, but apart from the incident itself the situation is exact same as yours with chirlie nico, you moved out, then back in to either show the car nose to chirlie or to get more stable braking.

 

[Tim McIver]

No worries Sean, I thought you would have held the outside line as it was T1 lap 1. Saying that, it was a close call and I wouldn't have normally tried to take the inside there. I didn't realise there was any contact at the time, and my replay doesn't suggest any,

I had a spin Turn 1 lap 1 as I attempted to lap Dale. It was completely my fault, I just braked too late. I think Dale was trying to let me through, I just messed up my brake point,

No other incidents to report.

 

[David Turnbull]

"Because if not we just agree to disagree like we did with the Anthony case last week and we move nowhere."

this bit of your post is really annoying me nico, i agreed i was 100% to blame for not leaving room and that i didnt feel contact due to a sync issue, we agreed about this, i then posted sayin i would leave room for the aussie members so as to avoid it again, i did so this race, so how have we moved nowhere?

 

[Henrik Jordfald Olsen]

No incidents to report - damn it feels good to say that

Apart from the dead stop at T1 at the beginning.

 

[Valter Ostman]

In the real world, that we aim to emulate in our simracing, they get hurt in violent shunts. That’s the main reason why they never let any inexperienced drivers compete in F1. An ignorant driver would be a great danger to everyone on the track, not knowing the “how to”. In the high speeds we are talking about, every wrong move can lead to a catastrophe. In Kemmel straight ten meters are done in 0,11 seconds and reaction time for an ordinary roadcar driver, sober and rested, is one second. Drivers who often makes a mess, I rather not like to mention Romain Grosjean at Spa, but anyway, sooner or later they find themselves racing touring cars. The reason for this is obvious. F1 racing depends on mutual trust. Raikkonen's overtaking of Shumi in Eau Rouge would never had taken place in a context where drivers didn’t trust each other one hundred percent. One of the cornerstones in building up mutual trust is the ability to act predictable, and according to the unwritten code drivers learn from the start in gocart working their way up to the top level. Most F1 pilots have this sixth sense that they have achieved by racing many years, but once in a while someone not really made of the right stuff gets a seat. I heard that fighter pilots have to do a test before being accepted into the training programme. One of the important parameters was the pupils perception of reality. I guess a great F1 driver has a big talent in that area. What is the point of my drivel? I don’t exactly wish that everybody must use blinker before changing lane but a little more realism is a welcome ingredient in my opinion. This is my longest and most boring post in a long time, sorry.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

The point about the incident reports is that the drivers involved are supposed to solve it, not me. Now I feel that since I step in when people fail to do this, they start to rely on this and just lean back and let me do the work.

Why isn't anybody else saying what they think, why do I have to stick my neck out everytime and become mr. unpopulare? It is bloody unfair that when I give of my free time to help you out with your analysis I become the villain. Well, this is the last time, I quit as admin. If this leads to incidents remaining unsolved, or solved in a way to minimize debates instead of searching for the universal truth, then I quit as a driver as well.

 

[Jonas Lex]

The point about the incident reports is that the drivers involved are supposed to solve it, not me. Now I feel that since I step in when people fail to do this, they start to rely on this and just lean back and let me do the work.

Why isn't anybody else saying what they think, why do I have to stick my neck out everytime and become mr. unpopulare? It is bloody unfair that when I give of my free time to help you out with your analysis I become the villain. Well, this is the last time, I quit as admin. If this leads to incidents remaining unsolved, or solved in a way to minimize debates instead of searching for the universal truth, then I quit as a driver as well.

I have not really taken part in conversations about Incidents because I dont consider myself experienced enough to make a professional opinion about a racing incident but now I'd like to write my opinion about this situation.
I think that the basic idea of having everyone take part in an incident discussion is a good concept without doubt, it has worked the last 8 seasons so it has proofen itsself.
But in my opinion it has to be the case that once the point is reached where we dont seem to get a constructive result, that the opinion of a experienced neutral person just has to be accepted.
And because Nico is Admin (and I deeply hope that it stays like this!), experienced and neutral, there is no doubt that he should be this "referee".

Its defenitely good to try finding constructive results but it can happen that we have an incident where the two sides dont agree with each other and then I think it doesnt lead anywhere to keep on discussing especially since that means more work for Nico.
(Dont forget that hes involved in all incident discussions so I understand that it gets too much for him)

Main goal should of course always be to come to a result in these discussion because then we learn the most out of them but in some cases I think its necessary to hear what the "referee" Nico has to say and that has to be accepted then and all drivers should also support his opinion then.

I hope Im not stepping on anyone's toes with this post, but I think if situations like these happen more often then we have to find a solution because it can defenitely not go on like this.

 

[Anthony Ishak]

I am sorry David, Nicos post does make a sence and it is very clear that valter had so little time to react and stop the car within the little distance he had left after you moved back to left .

One more thing, yes Nico did change his racing lane to the left but if you compare his move to yours you had all 4 wheels outside the white lane and you stayed there for couple of seconds and there was a plenty of space to the left for a car to pass where valter went for his usual braking zone, but in Nico case he barly had 2 wheels crossing the white lane and for a split of a second and if it was a driver behind him then this driver would not have gone for deeper braking zone as be wont have the space for a car on the left to pass .

I beleive i should be the last person to comment on this incident and I did thing more than twice to say my opinion as i did not want David that i am taking the opportunity to get him but i am saying my honest opinion based on what i beleive of this incident ..

 

[David Turnbull]

agreed, i accept nicos decision that i was mostly to blame for this incident and wont in future deviate in the braking zone, three people so far indicated wether on forum or elsewhere they think i was wrong so i'll apologise to valter and go with what is decided from now on, i'll also in future make sure i get a second opinion to any incidents before i make any posts so as to avoid incident reports beccoming 2 pagers everytime.

now please reconsider your position nico, nobody wants it to come to that at all, without you presto is nothing, and i'll leave myself before id let you carry through with what you said in your post.

 

[Peter Marshall]

The point about the incident reports is that the drivers involved are supposed to solve it, not me. Now I feel that since I step in when people fail to do this, they start to rely on this and just lean back and let me do the work.

Why isn't anybody else saying what they think, why do I have to stick my neck out everytime and become mr. unpopulare? It is bloody unfair that when I give of my free time to help you out with your analysis I become the villain. Well, this is the last time, I quit as admin. If this leads to incidents remaining unsolved, or solved in a way to minimize debates instead of searching for the universal truth, then I quit as a driver as well.

About three times yesterday; in the afternoon, the earlish evening and even near midnight I nearly posted a reply to this Nico. Unfortunatefly, on each occassion as I was nearly finished typing, I was interrupted by what we call "real life". I didn't want any ill considered statements posted and so here I am now.

As for all your hard work, I am very grateful for all that you have done in aligning our collective attitudes.. I don't write much regarding incidents anymore. Rest assure that I am always disappointed with myself when I do not make a "perfectly clean" race. I don't race to win, but to have fun and sometimes I feel this is at odds with the competitve nature of this hobby. e.g. the running wide debates.

My analysis; but does it matter? I don't think my opinion is as valuable as those whom always finish ahead of me in the timesheets and the races but...

I think the incident Valter Vs David looks quite different in each of the two vidoes. But my conclussion would be that David changed lanes in the braking zone resulting in an avoidable incident. Valter was not going to crash otherwise.

P.S. Very sorry that Nico felt the need to "let off steam".

 

[Alfonso Clarke]

"let off steam"
listen to rick

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Saw the progress of this thread just now..

 

[Valter Ostman]

The point about the incident reports is that the drivers involved are supposed to solve it, not me. Now I feel that since I step in when people fail to do this, they start to rely on this and just lean back and let me do the work.

Why isn't anybody else saying what they think, why do I have to stick my neck out everytime and become mr. unpopulare? It is bloody unfair that when I give of my free time to help you out with your analysis I become the villain. Well, this is the last time, I quit as admin. If this leads to incidents remaining unsolved, or solved in a way to minimize debates instead of searching for the universal truth, then I quit as a driver as well.

You always analyse everything very neutral and fair Nicolai. I should not do more than report what I have been involved in. I value all opinions of the situation written here. Now I will try to tell you my serious opinion of this incident. I think that I must take a part of the blame because I came from behind an had my eyes on the two cars in front of me. David, I think, didn't notice that I had an ok exit from Parabolica and were close behind him. He had his eyes mostly on the car in front and his movements made things difficult for me when I already had started my braking for Rettifilo. I suppose a better driver than me may have been able to do what Marcus Ericsson (GP2) did at the same spot in a race start situation. He released the brakes just enough to regain front grip and go out on the grass to the left and then he ran strait forward through the whole chicane.
I hope the incident is solved now when David and I have agreed that we are sorry about our parts in it. I am glad that we have discussed this and think that we have learned from the posts written here. Thanks for sharing your views guys.

 

[Reik Major]

Why isn't anybody else saying what they think, [...]?

My biggest problem is time! To get an idea what happened, to built up an opinion and to take anything which has been said so far into account I need to read carefully through all the posts. That takes a while and is only half the way, because "building" a sencefull answer takes the same time again.

I hope you see that I prioritize it higher to answer in such important stuff here instead of writing my race report (which was my main goal earlier, when I fired up the forum).

This is no excuse. It's a fact for me and could be the same for some others. That's why I always have biggest respect for persons like you, who organize such things without asking for anything.

[...]why do I have to stick my neck out everytime and become mr. unpopulare? It is bloody unfair that when I give of my free time to help you out with your analysis I become the villain.

That's indeed not fair. In my perfect world tricky things would be discussed without adding any emotions to find the optimal solution based on the evaluation of pure facts. I try that very often - ask my wife - she hates it!

But due to the fact Nico has the most work to keep it running smoothly I think he deserves to have some extra rights. Or in other words, even if he sometimes sounds a little bit rough, there's no excuse to fight back, because his only intention is to bring it down to the main problem quickly.

Now my view on that HUUUUUGE incident.

If I'd only consider the rule about one line change only, I had to blame David 100%. But it isn't that easy. Why? Because that line change rule mainly applies in situations where you fight the car behind and David clearly doesn't fight Valter, who was behind with a decent gap.

So in my eyes the need for a general caution should be the scale here. Applying that scale to the incident I'd allocate the blame 50% to David and 50% to Valter.

David should have known about the car behind even if it has a decent gap. He is the last car of a car pack and must tknow that he will have to brake much earlier than usually. Of course this would bring the car from the back closer very quickly. Since he was braking early on the inside line it wasn't impossible to happen that the car from (far) behind brakes at the usual brakign point and therefore could appeare quickly on the outside. So it wasn't carefull enough to not consider the car (farer) behind.

Valter should have known that there are many cars in front of him. As a result his slipstream is high and his downforce for braking is very low. In addition he must calculate that the extra meters each driver adds to his braking point would add to those from the guy behind and so on. So in my eyes he still didn't add enough safety margin to his braking point. That's his part of not being carefull enough.

Btw, that obligation of taking care for each other is written in the 1st paragraph of the german road traffic regulations. So even if another one is guilty in the first place, the judges will also have a look if the "unguilty" person could have had a chance to avoid an incident by a general amount of caution.

 

[Henrik Jordfald Olsen]

So in my eyes the need for a general caution should be the scale here. Applying that scale to the incident I'd allocate the blame 50% to David and 50% to Valter.

I do not support this, as I see it, David is actually moving off the line, the back again.
If he had stayed off the line which was his first move, then the incident would have been avoided.
Wether Valter breaks late or not is in my view irrelevant.

Valter was left no room to make a mistake.