SEASON 9 RACE 3 INCIDENT REPORT

I agree with Reik and look at it exactly same way:thumbsup:, David is moving back while hes attacking car ahead not to defend from car behind and Valter is trying to get close as he can to David simple.
If David doesnt move over there shouldnt be a problem, if Valter expects him to be fighting with car ahead maybe extra cautious as he knows hes getting closer, there shouldnt be a problem, if any of these are done im sure nobody would have had a accident.

If i was Valter, i think i wouldnt have hit Davids rear in any case though, if he moved over or not, i would have be slight cautious in braking there anyway incase and its easy to close up on cars fighting no need to be latest of braking and will only lead to a problem if something happens t1.
If i was David id have probably returned to left also before turn. Remember before this race theres no rule saying we have to stay on line in braking zone it was only if your defending and David didnt think he was defending at the time, Valter should have been aware of this to as David had done it laps before fighting with car ahead.

In conclusion i would also say nobody is to really blame for the accident, but the both make mistakes that contribute to it happening. I think if it was Formula 1 and fia stewerds for instance nobody would get penalty.

Maybe we should make a rule of no moving in braking zones ?
This could make races safer and every driver knows what should happen in the braking zone and more inline with f1 rules.
 
The point about the incident reports is that the drivers involved are supposed to solve it, not me.
Exactly, but while greater participation is desirable there sometimes still needs to be an umpire that holds the trump card, or at least to say "stop it kids".
Why isn't anybody else saying what they think, why do I have to stick my neck out everytime and become mr. unpopulare? It is bloody unfair that when I give of my free time to help you out with your analysis I become the villain. Well, this is the last time, I quit as admin. If this leads to incidents remaining unsolved, or solved in a way to minimize debates instead of searching for the universal truth, then I quit as a driver as well.

I understand your frustration, but you are neither unpopular nor ever a villain. I have nothing but respect for your opinion and for the effort that you put into making this the best simracing community in the world. We are often remiss in acknowledging our appreciation for your hard work. Thank you and I sincerely hope that you reconsider.
 
Thanks for all the positive and constructive posts/feedback.

First and foremost, this little drama was about the ineffectiveness of the incident report thread in combination with me "running over time" the latest months. I feel in general that our league under-estimate the importance of eliminating incidents. That is the only evil we need to fight against. I have only time and energy to run a league that is low on incidents, and you have only time and energy to race in a league where you decide your own destiny.

When I read your thoughts on the incident, it is one thing that strikes me, and that is that we are having problems distinguishing between blame and solution. What we need to focus on his how to avoid it in the future, and with that in mind analyse it.

I agree that Valter could have considered braking slightly earlier, allowing him more control due to the unpredictability of 3 cars ahead. But my focus is on David, as he was acting and Valter was reacting. David’s move back to the racing line, regardless of wording of the rule, we need to avoid it in the future (considering the proximity of the car behind).

Peter made a comment on the no moving while braking used to be a rule, and this is true. I think the problem is that the rules have evolved over the years, but not in writing… it is a result of everything that is written in the forum over time. The direction the evolvement is taking is towards simplification. In my head the one move rule covers moving while braking. Think of it this way;

you are never allowed to move more than once except:
-If there is no car behind you (eg. within 1,0 second)
-If the defending car follows up with a defensive move (but you still need to consider the car behind if there is one).
-If you are trying to avoid an incident (emergency)

(I will not mention braking the tow anymore as that is covered by the wording in the rule.)

What we need in future discussions is focus on the facts and nothing else. We want to find out how to avoid it in the future. In this incident the discussion should first and foremost been about how big distance to the car behind before you are allowed to “brake” the one move rule. The distance between David and Valter should naturally have been deemed too close as it just ended in an incident.

As for me “quitting as admin”; simplified I will trust that we collectively understand how this works for the rest of the season. I need to spend less time on this, and I wish to focus on my driving and not everybody else’s. If we all use the drivers meeting thread and incident thread properly there is no need for me as admin. But I am moderator of the forum, so I’ll use those tools to help keep the incident report and drivers meeting thread clean and to the point.

David, I am sorry that you became the “main victim” of my outburst, and the scale of it is totally unfair. I think an underlying factor is that you are involved in more incidents than other drivers with similar experience, and most league members regard you as one of the more aggressive drivers on track (assuming we all have a level of aggression), and there is an obvious link between the two. Your pass on me in Blanchemont would have been 10x more impressive if you never created an incident. The margins you use might work in a short perspective, but over the duration of a season it is always a question of time. If the positions were reversed I would have stayed behind you through those corners and tried into le source or after Eau Rouge. (I know the Valter incident had nothing to do with aggression).
 
nico, how do you work that out? and why am i being singled out again, your making it sound like im always involved in incidents, these 2 races are the first for many races ive even had an incident and to be honest youve made more of the valter one than anyone else has, now im being accused of causing an incident when i passed you at blanchimont? where is that coming from, you already posted that you thought my pass was totally fair in another thread now your changing the story.
 
Peter, about running wide, it is not about competitiveness for me, it is about a natural flow and removing unecessary ways of braking the rules and maximise focus on where it counts.

Using Monza as an example, in the exit of Lesmo 1, Lesmo 2 and Ascari, it is possible to go wide with a few cm before you hit grass or gravel. For me it therefore makes great sense to say that the track is self regulatory in these places.

Where the focus should be is not cutting in any of the chicanes, which is very easy, especially in Ascari.

So my logic is, we want to make the track as self regulatory as possible without disrespecting the intended racing line.

Remember, we are a self regulatory league, therefore it makes sense not disallowing unimportant stuff.

Peter, we have raced together for almost 5 years now, I consider you one of my closest racing buddies and also a friend :) Would it not be better to give in after all these years and rather embrace the interpetation prefered by the majority (I boldy assume)? In many ways this is very similar to my years long struggle against practice session server. Recently I gave in for the majority, and I am now "embarresed" to admit that I acctually am starting to like the reched server ;)
 
nico, how do you work that out? and why am i being singled out again, your making it sound like im always involved in incidents, these 2 races are the first for many races ive even had an incident and to be honest youve made more of the valter one than anyone else has, now im being accused of causing an incident when i passed you at blanchimont? where is that coming from, you already posted that you thought my pass was totally fair in another thread now your changing the story.

First of all, you do as you always do, you misread my post, don't understand what I am getting at, getting a tabloid impression and then arguing back.

I think you are the perfect PrestoGP driver in almost all ways, and I am very happy that we have you in our league. However, my general impression is that you are slightly more scary to be around on track than others with experience. This feeling is nothing I am making up, it is honestly how I feel on track. And I have not counted, but regardless of what perspective you look at it you are involved in more incidents than the average senior PrestoGP member.

Now, it is not that you are "so scary" that I wish you were not there, far from it, but I wish to somehow convey this information to you in a constructive way so that maybe you can make some adjustments. But you get so defensive everytime.
 
David was very cautious with me, that's all i can say. Almost too cautious but he has had the sad experience of my not-always-so-logical drivinglines, i got the message after two corners in Monza.

I haven't heard of no-move when braking, it wasn't discussed last season ;) Don't know the whole history but we got a lot of new drivers in two seasons (i consider me and Jonas still new, maybe even Marko, no offence guys, it's not a question of talent, just races finished...) so ~1/4 of the grid is relatively new and more drivers are lined up to join.

Maybe one thing to learn is to pace yourself between comments, let a little bit more time to pass, we don't all follow every post, especially after the race some take a break from the forums too. There were race reports coming all thru the weekend so it might just be that two people online were the only ones talking.

And another, more important is to get rid of blame, it turns people to defensive mode so easily. Don't have a clue how to actually accomplish this, maybe just a mental note, try wording sentences to passive tense.. Drawings of the incident, easier to make notes on overhead diagram instead of just videos (videos are the most important but in addition to that in hard to judge situations? Throwing ideas here..
 
nico, im sorry for being defensive its a natural reaction when you read things like "Your pass on me in Blanchemont would have been 10x more impressive if you never created an incident" , what did that have to do with anything? the incident with anthony was mainly a sync issue and i couldve left more space that we agreed on, and how would that affect that i still completed a clean pass on you laps earlier than this sync issue occured, so if we take that out of the situation ive been involved in 2 incident this season and 1 all of last season.

now if we look at someone else for example, tim (no offence tim) but tim has been involved in incidents in 2 starts so far and hungary he was involved in a number of incidents alone, i count upwards of 4 so far in 3 races, now granted not all his fault, and as reik and sean mentioned they think the incident with valter was 50/50 and ive said i would take the blame for that and not do it in future.

i cant help how you guys feel on the track, whatever you feel is upto you, but id like it noted that i am not involved in anymore incidents than say again for example, tim, now this doesnt make anything any better obviously but i think you need to realise why im being so defensive nico.
 
I understand your definsivenes David, and this (the incident discussion) is also a bit out of proporsions :)

You are right that it is not only you who could gain from being slightly less competitive/more safe. I know Tim can be in a hurry to keep up with Reik. But I wish all "beefs" people have with others on track is addressed in a friendly and constructive way in the forum.

My impression of you on track David is formed by the latest seasons, obviously with the more recent races weighing more. My point about Blanchemont was that you made a move that left little room for error for both parties. And it was close, because you caught me by surprise (because few others would dear to pass there). So my point was that this legal pass illustrates why drivers might feel slightly unsafe when you close up and want to let you pass as early as possible, (well, that is descriptive of me at least).

I'm not saying I do not wish to see passes like the one David did on me, but I want all to be concious about their competitiveness/safety balance and remember that there are 10 races in a season that should be incident free.

This is honestly how i feel and I wish to tell you this in a friendly and constructive way David. And I am not attacking this particular incident because it was so bad from you (it was an incident), I did it because you (including Valter) did not reach a solution, I could see you were about to conclude with the opposite of me.
 
........If i was Valter, i think i wouldnt have hit Davids rear in any case though, if he moved over or not, i would have be slight cautious in braking there anyway incase and its easy to close up on cars fighting no need to be latest of braking and will only lead to a problem if something happens t1.
If i was David id have probably returned to left also before turn. Remember before this race theres no rule saying we have to stay on line in braking zone it was only if your defending and David didnt think he was defending at the time, Valter should have been aware of this to as David had done it laps before fighting with car ahead.......

I think in same way and think also that ride with car of million dollars cost and want carry at home my car always but is only my thought/philosophy for race in PrestoGP and I will continue until I cast out.I know Im not so speed racer and use always extra caution when all:D pass me and I want only one thing FUN and LEARN but after 2 pages of thread where the discussion is brake/move, % ,yes but I no but him etc.... and the result is lost ours Admin.. mmmm guys no good, we have rules news and old write and not but all these rules lead to "common sense".
I dont think is needful new rules and sure David and Valter are always good friends say only this too many words for me around an incident that happen nobody want this but happen.What Pedrosa has to say at Barbera ? kill him? turn the nuts:rolleyes: sure but go ahead.

....As for me “quitting as admin”; simplified I will trust that we collectively understand how this works for the rest of the season. I need to spend less time on this, and I wish to focus on my driving and not everybody else’s. If we all use the drivers meeting thread and incident thread properly there is no need for me as admin. But I am moderator of the forum, so I’ll use those tools to help keep the incident report and drivers meeting thread clean and to the point....

this is a sensible thing, well done mate:thumbsup:
 
im sorry you feel that way nico, it now makes it hard for me to even continue here knowing that youve formed an impression about me from a sync issue, a pass at spa and an incident with valter, apart from that theres only 2 incidents in the last 2 and a half seasons so i dont know where your basis for this is. but anyhoo its better i know how others feel about me than them to hide it.
 
im sorry you feel that way nico, it now makes it hard for me to even continue here knowing that youve formed an impression about me from a sync issue, a pass at spa and an incident with valter, apart from that theres only 2 incidents in the last 2 and a half seasons so i dont know where your basis for this is. but anyhoo its better i know how others feel about me than them to hide it.

I see that the issue has two sides, and that I should not have written what I wrote. It is out of context and out of proporsions, and I understand that I might have a wrong impression of your incident record the latest season.
 
There is a need for clarification of what I should have done in the slowdown to Rettifilo. Just so I know to the next similar situation. Kurt says that his normal braking point was near 100 meters and mine was about 110 meters. I started to slow down just before the 150 meter mark. Isn't it impossible to race if you can't exploit the situation and make a careful attempt to come up level with the car ahead, as he has slowed down very early. Note that the collision occurred 75 meters before the chicane. How should this have been done? If there are more then one car close in front should you go in to a "only watch from far behind" mode so you don't interfere in their racing? Reik? Sean?

EDIT: I have read your post Nicolai and there I can read your explanation/instruction. But it would be best if everyone could write an answer to this. Then if everyone agrees on a clear rule of changing lanes under braking all is ok. We all need to act the same way and be predictable. If some of us disagree with the majority we have a problem.

This isn't about blaming David. We are ok about our incident and good friends. This is about the next race.
 

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