Season 7-Race8 Interlagos Incident report

[Tim McIver]

Thanks David. We can indeed move on. I had another look and grabbed the server replay too. They looked pretty similar. I'll make a small video at some point. I'd be interested to see how it looked from your perspective. Even without a sync issue I made a very similar mistake on Gaetano later in the race.

I'm still keen to resolve the other issues raised in this thread when people get a chance.

 

[Anthony Ishak]

No incident to report..

 

[Tim McIver]

I've just been watching the server replay again and unfortunately I think we must once again address the issue of Gaetano's cutting. As I followed him in the race I watched him run wide sector 2 almost every lap. Clearly he was running low wings so we couldn't overtake him on the straights, which means that it was of great advantage to him to run wide and cut in sector 2. David brought this to our attention last race and we were assured the message was heard.

I just watched Gaetano's first 10 laps and counted 24 cuts or running wide. David was right to be upset about this last time. It's a shame we need to have this discussion again. I haven't checked the rest of his race, but this is clearly not an accident.

I'm also concerned that after I posted on 3 race incidents I had with Gaetano there is no response. I do understand there is a language issue, but the system doesn't work if we're not all running on the same rules and communicating in the forums.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I'm also concerned that after I posted on 3 race incidents I had with Gaetano there is no response. I do understand there is a language issue, but the system doesn't work if we're not all running on the same rules and communicating in the forums.

I think this is the mother of his problems, that he doesn't/ is not able to follow the forum. The fact that he didn't know that Reik was not participating in the race is a clear indication that he reads/understands little of the forum. He is also our youngest member, 15 or 16 I think (but I may be mistaken).

So, how to deal with this I do not know, any suggestions? Losing him as a member feels like a loss for all parts. I agree with Tim that without proper communication the system does not work, and receiving a second podium when braking the same rules feels like exploiting the no penalty gentlemans apporach.

 

[Peter Marshall]

So, how to deal with this I do not know, any suggestions?

I feel that if Gaetano chooses to remain silent on these concerns then it will become a lose for us all. No comment is a comment.

 

[David Turnbull]

i find it quite funny how and why he would continue to do it after hockenheim even though its clear he will be caught as everyone has access to the replays, i dont know whats going on in his head, i thought that vale had a few words with him in his native language to explain the situation, hopefully someone can do this again and ask him to post on the forum saying that he understands, i dont know how id deal with it thats upto you nico but its certainly something that cant keep happening each race.

 

[Reik Major]

I'm also disappointed, because I thought Valerios words had been heard and understood by Gaetano.

I also have no clue how to handle it. I hope Vale can again tell him how disappointing his behavior is. His low wing strategy was a good move but he only deserves full honor if he defended it with the intention to be as legal as possible (not to mention that some mistakes are accepted).

 

[Tim McIver]

I've just been catching up on the current discussions...

I would like to suggest the race director send an email to drivers asking them to resolve all issues in this thread in order to qualify for the next event. It's been suggested in the Hungary setup thread that we are all on the same page with the white line rule. Unresolved issues in this thread suggest to me that we are simply not on the same page. There will be major cutting which will effect the podium at Hungary unless there is resolution to this thread.

The other thing we could do is ask every driver to count their total number of cuts in the Interlagos race. This would serve to highlight the problem and make each driver aware if whether they are conforming to the norm or perhaps need to adjust their driving style.

I do understand Davids frustration at the never ending discussions about the white line rule and possible exemptions. I still feel that the topic keeps coming up because the current state of things isn't actually manageable or realistic. I do apologize to David who won't be able to comment due the his voluntary ban!

This corner at Hungary is the perfect example. There is a great deal of time to be gained. It's a blind corner, cutting can happen through cheating OR because of an error in the right hander before OR because you're trying to find that fine line between legal and illegal. I don't think that simply saying that everyone has to try there best to stay legal works. If I knew that I was going to get a penalty for a single cut, I would take that corner very differently to the way I would drive if I thought 3 or 4 cuts per race was acceptable. If I thought that every second lap it was fine to have a cut (which I do not!) I would drive differently again. In all of those scenarios I would be genuinely trying not to cut every lap but if I'm aiming to hit the apex with 5mm then my errors will mean cuts.

My hope is that we will have one more season on Race07 then a discussion about switching to a new platform that will solve all our problems!

We have to take a stand on the Interlagos race. I think there are several people that need to either comment and discuss on the forums or cease to race with Presto. I think its that simple. What do you think Mr Race Director?

Tim.

 

[David Turnbull]

sorry tim i got totally sidetracked with the *insert unmentionable rule here* that i totally forgot to resolve our incident with the videos, ill get to that as soon as i can and get that resolved before hungary race.

regards the counting of the breaking of the unmentionable rule, id be happy to count them back but dont know what good it would do anyone, its the intention behind it, not the actual breaking of the rule, if it was all accidental then fine, but theres definatly some that aint and these are plainly noticable to anyone who watches. ive said enough on this now so ill move on.

i too hope that if rfactor2 is good and all can afford it we will move to that, or at least a good rfactor1, formula 1 mod, race07 is certainly running its course, and the format of events in rfactor are much more lifelike, the cars are also more forgiving in any mod ive tried and could add to the competitions for all drivers.

 

[Tim McIver]

I was going to make some vids too David, though I certainly didn't mean you in my last post. I'll make a video so everyone else can see what we were talking about but you and I have discussed and resolved our incident.

I captured some video using fraps but now its in 5760x1080. Any recommendations on what I should do next? Programs? Editing tools?

On the forbidden topic, I agree that anyone who deliberately breaks the white line rule is cheating plain and simple. I just don't agree that that's the extent of the problem. Should I be leaving myself a full car width of extra breathing room so that on 5 or 6 occasions during the race that I stuff up the corner I won't be cutting? Or should I aim to make the apex by millimeters and accidentally cut slightly every 2 or 3 laps? Both of these can be done with the best of intentions. My impression is that most of us are aiming to push the limits and finish the race having accidentally cut no more than 5 or 6 times. Qualifying we are aiming for a totally clean lap. I'm not sure that everyone actually knows how many times they are cutting per race.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

The Race Director will have a look later tonight when he gets home

About you Fraps situation Tim, everytime I make a video I have to change my display settings in the game from 5760x1080 to 1920x1080. When I want to race again I swap it back to 5760x1080

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I would like to suggest the race director send an email to drivers asking them to resolve all issues in this thread in order to qualify for the next event. (...) There will be major cutting which will effect the podium at Hungary unless there is resolution to this thread.

I have a better idea called "save Gaetano". If Gaetano does not review and resolve his incidents, nor comment on the cutting/running wide problem he is accused of, he is out of the league. I sincerely hope some of our members helps him to understand and do the right thing, because I think it would be a great shame to lose Gaetano because he isn't able to do what one would think would be very simple. So someone, save Gaetano! I'll change the colour of his name at PrestoGP.com to help spark the operation.

This corner at Hungary is the perfect example. (...) If I knew that I was going to get a penalty for a single cut, I would take that corner very differently to the way I would drive if I thought 3 or 4 cuts per race was acceptable. If I thought that every second lap it was fine to have a cut (which I do not!) I would drive differently again. In all of those scenarios I would be genuinely trying not to cut every lap but if I'm aiming to hit the apex with 5mm then my errors will mean cuts.
(...)
The other thing we could do is ask every driver to count their total number of cuts in the Interlagos race. This would serve to highlight the problem and make each driver aware if whether they are conforming to the norm or perhaps need to adjust their driving style.

This counting I think is the result of the whole point you are making (and I have tried to make); Simplified one can claim that the closer you are to the limit, the faster you willl be and the more often you will cut, thus those who have few cuts and wides in a race are sacrificing more time than those who have more cuts and wides. Doing the count from Interlagos would give us a list displaying the different interpetations of the rule. What we want is for everybody to sacrifice roughly the same amount of time to stay clean -> a more even amount of cuts and wides in the race.

I will not force everybody to do this, but I will "do myself". The more that does this the more syncronised the whole group will be in terms of cutting and running wide.

btw, I do not think one should count those cuts and wides which are
a) clearly done for safety reasons (in traffic)
b) where you clearly lose time

I do apologize to David who won't be able to comment due the his voluntary ban!

lol

My hope is that we will have one more season on Race07 then a discussion about switching to a new platform that will solve all our problems!

I think it is wise and realistic to have (at least) one more season on the same platfor as well. But at the end of the day I will always go for the solution which results in the largest amount of our members staying in our league

We have to take a stand on the Interlagos race. I think there are several people that need to either comment and discuss on the forums or cease to race with Presto. I think its that simple. What do you think Mr Race Director?

Well, I would not want anybody who did the minimum required (handle incident report correctly and show prepared for race) to cease racing with Presto. Our drivers has various time to their disposal, and I think it is important that they can survive in Presto in those times when there is much to do in real life (like Anthony's busy restaurant). But those who does not face their incidents or accusations of braking the rules on the other hand... HELP GAETANO!

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I to thinks its good idea for another season with this mod and not to rush into anything but would also like to think that rf2 or perhaps gtr3 could be a good future option but not to overlook rf1 to which maybe alot of people have already or cheapest option, there alot of good mods out for rf1 and options for online races just no weather unless im mistaken. Im quite new to rf having really just played gtr over years but i did the rdfpc with fsone2008 mod recently last season as a learning experience for rf and looking to rf2 and had some great races i only crashed out montreal, fuel trouble end of spa and dq suzuka for not serving stopngo before but was ok performance with around 4/5 hrs practise for races. Reiks bro Nico raced to and is also mighty fast heres a highlight of 1 of the races you will recognize me lol

ps: tim what i do with fraps also you can select half size and or lower fps this and using smaller resolutions will lower file size and make it easier to upload etc for example a hotlap 1 min and few secs at 1280x720 60 fps full size are near 2 gb to upload :eek: .

 

[Gaetano Zizzo]

hi all sry if not cant follow more the forum !
tim since the incidents with you is same 1 incident as go on green ! but you try pass me not i !same ather incident same corner still you try pass me im avant you ,you insert but me too there and have street for do my line without cut your line but you go overtake!so i think is your auction mouvie on me so i in the moment inside race not feel wait you beacouse not my movie caused incident !! but i say sry if you think bad !
for the cut line on interlagos , need to see the repley later think post it !
18 jenuary i make 32 age !!!

 

[David Turnbull]

lol thats the best and worse post ive ever read

your 32 yrs old yet act like a child on the server? with your comments you made to me when i asked you to stop cheating on hockenhein i honestly thought you were 15yrs old or younger, amazing how also your english is far better when your argueing with someone on the server.

watch the replay anyway, not that you'll notice anything wrong.

 

[Gaetano Zizzo]

I apologize for the previous post
Mr. Tim on lap 52 incident and the first thing and clear to everyone following your attempt to pass me and incredibly spoiled in my opinion 2 sensa consequences for both incident and clear that you get very long on me and I have therefore moved off by the book you gave me the position, I drove in my head all the time with the panic trying to pass me destroys me throwing myself out of the race I going to impact somewhere !!!!! 3 in the case because it was clear that my tires were finished and we always try to defend myself to say that after around 52 your car started to be very unstable (from what I saw in the replay) you have tried as you precede the case and to put yourself in the same curve inside to try to pass me note that I had to be at least where you were trying to make a correct trajectory and then expand to facilitate the journey, but I have you managed to tap into but I am still with you and fight for that place and certainly could not do otherwise I had no space to try to impact or in some other direction to go out into the green!
(in my opinion if I make a pass and in doing so I have contact with who is ahead of me around and I do not think the fault of those who stood before me, and therefore acceptable if I did not expect,,On the contrary, if I throw it out and clear that I put behind him by returning the position) at least I hope I made clear with you tim sorry for the delay of the post; david turnbull already enough for us to point the finger at my every breath ^ ^!

 

[David Turnbull]

at your every breathe?

all i want for you is to stop cheating, ive even heard your straight lining the kerb at hungary that we are all debating, i mean when are you ever going to learn, benefit of the doubt was giving because we thought you were 15yrs old, how wrong were we eh?, 32 and still cant answer the debate youve caused, 2 podiums, countless points by cheating yet you take no responsibility for it, you even go as far as to abuse people when they ask you to stop, id like nico to check back server logs anytime ive questioned you, then people will see the crap ive took from you and why im so straight to the point with you back.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I do not know what has been said and not, but I do know that Gaetano appears to have a problem with the english language, and I do not understand how you can understand his intentions through what he writes. I know with myself that I would be very careful to conclude with any abnormal behavior when the language (and culture) is so different.

Unfortunatly there is no log of the chat, it is not possible in the dedicated server to save the chat logs.
As for the incident report, I think that is a matter for Tim as I understand it.

 

[Tim McIver]

I apologize for the previous post

All is good. I'm not easily offended.

Mr. Tim on lap 52 incident and the first thing and clear to everyone following your attempt to pass me and incredibly spoiled in my opinion 2 sensa consequences for both incident and clear that you get very long on me and I have therefore moved off by the book you gave me the position, I drove in my head all the time with the panic trying to pass me destroys me throwing myself out of the race I going to impact somewhere !!!!!

In my records it was lap 54. In the incident you refer to, which I didn't include in the video because it was so simple, I make a bad error and take you out. That's why I apologised earlier. I repeat here, definitely my fault and should not have happened.

It is worth mentioning that you had chosen a very low wing strategy, and had taken your 2nd stop very early in order to undercut (which worked very well). At this point in the race I was several seconds a lap faster than you. This is no excuse for the poor driving that cause the first incident (mine) but after letting you go and regain your composure I am certainly going to try again. It is very difficult to pass at Interlagos, but that is the goal.

I'm still of the opinion that my next attempt, on the same corner, as you rightly point out, was completely legal. I think it was actually a very good move.

(David incident is in this one as well, though it has been resolved)

It turn in my car is not only more than half way up the inside (as is my understanding of whose corner it is) I am actually in front of you. At that point the corner is mine. It's my responsibility to stay tight on the inside to leave you room to hold the outside line. That's what I did. Of course you will have to brake harder to hold the outside line. Instead you turned in as normal and took me out. This is how I understand the incident. I look forward to some interpretations from other drivers.

I'm not sure I completely understand your perspective Gaetano. The replay I've uploaded is based on the server replay, it tells the saem story as my local replay.

Tim.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

My view of the incident, if it can be of any help:

If I am to analyse Tim's part of it, I agree with him that he does almost everything perfect, he goes for the inside, is more than far enough up Gaetano's side and manage to keep a tight turn. The only weakness of the overtaking maneuver was that he did the whole passing in the braking zone (he was not on Gaetano's side when they started braking). This is not illegal, but it is obvious that there is a greater chance that Gaetano will be surprised. Also, you probably did not have to lose control due to the contact. If you had been prepared for a little contact, at it was a slightly surprising move, you might have gotten through in front without spinning.

For Gaetano's part, the questions are, should he have been aware of Tim and should he have waited for Tim. From my perspective I think the answer to both questions are yes, although I can understand that Tim's move was unexpected/surprising.