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Discussion in 'Simracing Team Challenge' started by Xosé Estrada, Apr 16, 2010.

  1. No penalty

  2. +15 sec

  3. +30 sec

    0 vote(s)
  4. +60 sec

    0 vote(s)
  5. No points

    0 vote(s)
  6. No points / no qualy in next race

    0 vote(s)
  7. No points / DQ for next race

    0 vote(s)
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  1. Xosé Estrada

    Xosé Estrada
    Premium Member

    Disadvantaged car: Michael Hart-Jones
    Team: ANE
    Reported car: Marcin Skrzypczak
    Reported Team: RPM


    Marcin made an unsafe pass forcing Michael in to a wall. This caused front suspension damage.


    +15 secs penalty (absolute majority with 7 votes)
  2. Ross Balfour

    Ross Balfour
    #99 | Roaring Pipes Maniacs

    WOW, ANE really are looking for every single penalty claim possible this round, all 3 are incidents to dicuss but in my opinion are not penalty worthy. Instead of posting in all three I will post here for all my decisions:

    1) APEX vs ANE - Ries was one lap up on Michael, therefore Michael does not have ground over Ries so an incident may occur as both drivers may not have the same talent behind the wheel so will take different lines. We see this here, Ries was under pressure from Robin Johansson and coudl not afford to be stuck behind lapped traffic in a situation like that. So for the reason he is a lap down, I vote NO PENALTY.

    2) Rami vs ANE - My view on this may seem bias as RPM is my team, but I try to be as impartial as I can be. Lap One is always a minefield of incidents, especially on a tight and twisty track like Sugo. Yes Rami did make contact with the ANE car and spun him I see clearly. But I will probabaly never vote for a penalty on a Lap One incident, even if it's my team invloved (Vincent Staal on Dragos Haba at Bahrain in Turn One fr example) lap one will always have incidents and in my view **** happens. So NO PENALTY

    3) Marcin vs ANE - Basically the same as Ries's incident. One (maybe 2, not sure exactly) laps down on Marcin so he is within his own rights to slide passed as he is in the main battle for the lead. This video isn't very clear as it doesn't show how far back Marcin actually is, untill I see that, I can't vote for a penalty. Unless he is very very far back, it is unlikely that I will for the reasons I explained.

    It may seem harsh, but for me that's my opinion and it will take a very long lecture on decision making to change my mind. Lap One and lapping incidents are definitely two parts of racing where you just have to get used to and move on IMO.
  3. Rami still overtook Michael before the finish line Ross. :)
  4. Once again I was not given any opportunity to move out of the way but instead I was barged out of the way. All the driver last night can confirm that I am enough of a gentleman to clear the way, I will admit that there was one incident last night in which I probably could have moved out of the way faster but it was not here, and let the leaders through.

    I may have been a lap down but I was still disadvantaged by this incident.
  5. Ross Balfour

    Ross Balfour
    #99 | Roaring Pipes Maniacs

    Ahh but did he though, there was a lot of lag and once the lag stopped (3 or 4 seconds after they crossed the line) Rami was only slightly ahead of Michael. I would like to see Rami's view on this. I'll post both incidents on the forum and see what happens.
  6. I have redone the video for this

  7. Ross Balfour

    Ross Balfour
    #99 | Roaring Pipes Maniacs

    Thanks Mike, I think that makes it clearer now. I stand by my initial thought, it wasn't a race ruining incident for you, just a little tap compared to the Rami and Ries incidents, NO penalty for me.
  8. I think if you are in front it isn't a reason to push a backmarker outside. Backmarker have the right to do the race as the same level to everyone. I know sometime it's difficult to restrain you're nerve when you are in battle, but respect it's most important.
  9. As I am involved in all 4 incidents this week I will have to hand my votes over to Ian Beech
  10. Well, as you prefeer Michael but I am sure you will choose the correct option anyway. And yes, looks like this week you had a an invitation for all the partyes. :tongue:
  11. There is fault in both parties here.
    1. If a leading car is this close to a car about to be lapped he (lapped car) should give way immediately
    2. Even if you are in a "backmarkers" tail you are not allowed to push him off the track

    So taking everything into consideration there should be a penalty for Marcin imo. Will discuss with Damian about this before voting.
  12. Ross Balfour

    Ross Balfour
    #99 | Roaring Pipes Maniacs

    The second video makes it quite clear that Michael had plenty of time to pull over before the corner, but he didn't, went wide and Marcin went up the inside trying to pass. You've got to really ask youself, is this a big enough incident to change the winner of the race? Definitely not.
  13. Ross Balfour

    Ross Balfour
    #99 | Roaring Pipes Maniacs

    Okido guys, another video from lots of angles to make it a clear cut that Marcin did not intend to hit Michael and that it was a racing incident, we also see all the time Michael had to let Marcin by:

    We see here that they were nearly side-by-side into the corner and Marcin had the inside line and was within his rights to try to pass, especially as he was 2+ laps up. I think we can come to a firm conclusion with this video.

    Jari also found some very interesting information that makes it clear that this incident isn't what caused his suspension damage:

    Marcin´s accident:
    - Marcin and Michael have their accident in lap 19 (replay: 2070)
    - In lap 20 (after the accident) Michael drove 1.33.218 which was his fastest lap he had done. (That will be second fastest lap of the race because after pitting he manages to do 1.33.042 on lap 27)
    - Lap 21 he crashed to the wall and his times dropped dramatically
    - lap 26 he pitted for repairs/tires.

    Clearly it was the mistake at the end of the video which caused him the damage.

    Good day :)
  14. race briefing clearly states otherwise, guy to be lapped sticks to his line, lapping guy finds a way past.
  15. What I posted is MY opinion of how things are to be done. I'm not speculating what our rules say. You don't see this happening in real life either so I really don't understand why we would have it any different. This incident imo is a clear result of the lapped car sticking to his line. The same thing is with the other lapped car incident.

    The problem with "sticking to the line" is that there might not be a chance for the lapping car to pass in a very long time. That in turn makes the leaders very aggressive and thus creating incidents like this. I am NOT making excuses for the guys bumping AnE drivers, just stating a fact.
  16. Well that is what this forum is for. Make your decision and if you feel like justifying your choice, then please do. I know that no decision is made lightly.
  17. Ross, you are making a lot about this race incident and making your self angry in doing so, step back and have a think about what you are putting. If you look at the film you posted i would say why try over tacking in to the bend on the n/s side, when you have a nice straight once round the bend. more easy to pull over there!!! Other words with all your post you are saying cars must move over as soon as a car starts to show in your mirrors if your a lap down on other cars. This makes no sense!! you do not see this in real racing and first blue flag does not say stop/move over, it say move over safely to let the car behind pass you safe.
  18. Bram

    Roaring Pipes Maniacs | #27 Staff Premium Member

    Not sure how far STC follows real life racing rules. But if an attacking car (marcin) is passed the rear wheels of the defending car (michael) the defending car needs to make space to let the attacking driver pass in a safe way.
  19. Ross Balfour

    Ross Balfour
    #99 | Roaring Pipes Maniacs

    The whole reason I replying in this way (which is not usually the way I act or indeed RPM act) is because our well-earned (all be it gifted from Fernando's disconnection, but a win none the less) win will be taken away from us for a cast-iron racing incident. If we are penalized (which we would of been clearly if he hadn't provided evidence that this incident in fact did not cause Michael suspension damage, but a later mistake by him did) it will be unjust, but we will just need to accept it and move on. Now step back and think about that, the incident is not big enough to change the race winner, not even close.

    I'm sorry I have ranted and ranted for the past few days about this, but I am doing what is right for our team and for Marcin, I mean no harm at all and will not hold any grudges.
  20. Ross, this incident is very much the same I had with Gregory Degreef at Hockenheim. It will and must be dealt with the same manner for a multitude of reasons. The fact that there was (?) no suspension damage caused by that collision does not change anything. At hockenheim I was spun from behind getting only a bit of damage like in this case. I dropped 2 places because of that and that caused me to lose P2 in the final results. Does a penalty for Degreef change anything for me? No it doesn't as I won't get my lost places back. The same thing is with this incident only difference being the place is lost after the race (should Marcin get a penalty).

    You cannot crash people out and expect not to get any kind of penalty from that. Be it +15s or +30s or anything. The point is we can't look at the final results and just try to adjust the penalty according to that. Be the lost place 1st or 21st does not matter because it can't be taken into account when considered the final penalty (unless the penalized driver is infront of the other guy involved...and not even in this case always). I'm very well aware that our Apex driver will also lose a position because we will vote a penalty for our own guy. And his incident was just the same as Marcin's. There has to be consistancy in the decided penalties because without that there is no point in having a penalty system like this.
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