1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Restarts and the Restart

Discussion in 'Presto GP' started by Sean Greenlaw, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    6.3%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
  3. Yes , but only in extreme cases of more than half the grid out lap 1

    10 vote(s)
    62.5%
  1. Sean Greenlaw

    Sean Greenlaw
    PrestoGP Veteran

    I thought id make a thread about it to keep it separate from the rest and added a poll.

    Main reasons i think we should not have had a restarted or have restarts is its impossible to be fair to everyone restarts just leads to confusion and other people have had races where had to esc or damaged car in 1st lap before, even people have lc or chosen wrong tires in q by accident or pushed esc during lap 1 to avoid a incident to and dont think we have ever voluntarily restarted a q or race before. On the race also it puts us in difficult position for future application of the rule.
    Will people call for restart if for example they have wrecked there own race or even just for making a slight bad start losing a few places. It could also lead to drivers having less of a safety margain and thinking i can go for this move at the start if mistake we will have restart anyway. The restart idea is open to abuse.
    People have had bad luck and sometimes will have dnf out of there control or not and this will improve everyones future safety especially at start of races but its important to not to have restarts for realism and most importantly to be fair to everyone, you cant allow for every incident that happens or restarts may become never ending.

    Looking at the Race Tim and David have contact in T5. Tim then goes into barrier and rejoins the track and spins out losing control into the racing line and collects Peter and Anthony with there races effictively over and are passingers in the accident Peter even pushing esc incase he collided with someone, Tim makes it back to pits, stops fixs and exits spinning hits 2 barriers and loses front wing and pushes esc.

    Tim and David in my replay looked like there was a sync issue i could see a gap between them as contact happens but looks like theres enough room for both, the cars will obviously be in different places in each persons replay. As Tim rejoins he must put power on to early still on grass and spins as rejoins track obviously slight more caution here and there wouldnt have been any other incident. Peter and Anthony couldnt have done anything differently anyway to try and avoid.
    If i was anybody in these Incidents i know for sure i wouldnt have asked for restart and Im sure anyone been part of a race ending incident before or most in league would also not have posted restart if they were in the incident.
    Im unsure when restart was called for and by who as i try to avoid reading comments during race but I did notice Tim Saying Restart ? dont know if that was he 1st but i see no reason for it also Tim is still in the race, also no restarts and no posting during race is a rule right ?, there has been incidents similar or worse in the past anyway, i know its sometimes hard to take race over in such short time but this is simracing and other people have had to do this in past and didnt post during race.

    I think this put Nico in a difficult position having to think restart or not ? while trying to concentrate on driving to and is unfair on him he deserves to have a hassle free race and not having to decide if incident he may have no idea of deserves a restart is also the reason for no posting in race.
    You can also look at it like if Tim, Peter, and Anthony were also going to dnf and have no points, Reik would have had 75 points or more lead perhaps to Tim instead of 31 and with Peter and Anthony both dropping positions, This may sound harsh to but im not implying anything about this but these are just the facts of the situation. Remember there will be people who have lost points or dnf from incidents in previous races but they have no way of getting a 2nd chance to get any of lost potentiol points or finishes which makes the situation impossible to be fair to everyone as we were effitively racing under different rules. Points arent the most important things in the league but the rules and implementation of them are key to the integrity of the league. So the points will be debatable along with any future restarts adding to further confusion in points.

    Anyway its hard to see how we could race under a rule which effectively we can call for restarts and i think we should race under the understanding theres no restarts in the future as this is most sensable option and what i thinks has been used from start for a reason.

    These are the reasons i think we shouldnt have restarts abit of a long one sorry lol :rolleyes: but i think everyone should post what they think to :thumbsup:
     
    • Like Like x 10
  2. David Turnbull

    David Turnbull
    PrestoGP Veteran

    ok heres what i think......

    thats seans longest ever post.


    my thoughts on this would be no restarts unless there are extreme circumstances like mass disconnect or half the grid out at turn 1, im not in favour of restarts at any other time, i dont see them as fair or anywhere close to realism, my view of what happened the other night is this....i passed tim leaving a huge gap, a sync issue occured, tim went flying off track, regained control then started accelerating on the grass which caused him to spin into oncoming traffic, peter and anthony were taken out by this and at least peter suffered race ending damage, but tim continued for half a lap before calling for a restart then went to the pits, fixed his car and rejoined only to mess up pit exit and wreck himself he then quit,

    heres a video to show why a restart was called........



    the first part shows the initial incident, 2nd part shows tim go off track to type restart half a lap later, 3rd is when tim quits to garage after fixing car and making a mistake, tim was the first to call for a restart then anthony followed, peter never asked as hes aware of the no restart or typing during the race rule, if theres anyone i wouldve been happy to give a restart to it wouldve been peter after the luck hes suffered, but wheres the justice for peter when he was taken out before the first corner at a1 ring? or bob who left us due to the incident and the aftermath, this wouldve been avoided if a restart had been called, or what about the many others whove been wrecked during lap 1 only to have to deal with it, it makes no diffrence who the guilty party is the main thing is weve all accepted it until now and to be totally honest 3 cars isnt too big a problem, id see the point if it was 7 or 8 or more, i put no blame for the situation on nico he only went with what he thought was right at the time.

    to sum up im for restarts if the situation calls for it (disconnects or half grid out at t1) otherwise ive had to deal with it myself so i expect no restarts for anyone.

    p.s ive attached a vid of the initial incident that caused tim to go off track from my perspective.....

     
    • Like Like x 5
  3. Valter Ostman

    Valter Ostman
    PrestoGP Veteran

    Maybe we should have a restart only if n cars are out of the race. But how big number is n?
    The most fair way to deal with this is probably to have no restarts at all.

    Drive safe
    / Valter
     
    • Like Like x 5
  4. I agree with what Sean sais. What I write here is not to coup the discussion or decide this is how we do it, it's just my view.

    Allowing restarts creates a lot of problems, such as:
    -Where to draw the line, when is it ok to restart?
    -How to judge a "restart-candidate" (how do I know when to esc to garage and restart)
    -How will it affect drivers' safety concerns, knowing there is a safety net
    -Drivers might speculate as it is hard to say when a drivers race is ruined/ended

    On the other hand, the reason we are all here is to enjoy ourself, and it feels like a waist/counter-productive when several prepared drivers don't get to deliver their contribution to the race (a race with 17 prepared drivers is more fun for all than a race with 14, especially for the 3 out). I think they do this in real f1 as well at some point, red flag and restart. I am not saying yesterdays restart was correct, but at some point I think the majority would wish for a restart.

    For me the best solution would be to perfectly define when and how a restart can be done, because at some point it is obvious that we should restart (although we should strive for it never to happen). And the fact that we restart the race in the same order we "ended" the first makes it more fair (those in incident start from behind, the driver who was leading starts from pole etc.).

    Practically, a way to do it is:
    if your race is ended and you have returned to garage, in the chat you write (in my case): 1. Nicolai. Next one that have esc to garage does the same, although he writes 2 (eg. 2. Peter). Nothing more, nothing less. In short the drivers are informing who and how many are out of the race.

    If we beforehand had agreed on how many drivers out after how many laps calls for restart, I would execute as soon as I saw the magic number within the agreed lap number.

    If someone (against my believes) tried to mis-use the system to their advantage (leave the gentleman rules behind) it should be telling when watching the replay (hopefully)


    This is very true, without clear "instructions" I do not have the brain capacity to consider what to do. I end up acting on "instinct"/impulsive. It's like "here is a unique situation, decide what to do within 10 seonds at the same time as you are driving"

    A few races ago David and Sean LC early in qualify, and others made a mess of the tyre-choice (including me). I strongly considered restarting q as it was far from finished (noone had completed lap I thought), but the fact that I myself had made a terrible mistake and would greatly benifit from a restarted q made me decide against it (impulse). In hindsight I regretted the decition.

    This time around I first saw Peter in the garage, which gave me great grief as he have had a bad run of luck lately. Then i saw Anthony write something like: what is going on and at least him and Tim calling for restart, Vale and others saying ok and now I could see more cars in garage. Personally I have had a great start and gained several places, the situation with several restart calls was unusual, and I guess personally I wanted to restart as seeing other driver out of the race hurts as much as if it was myself, and 3x that pain was a relief to "get rid of". But bottom line, I act only on impulse/"instinct".
     
    • Like Like x 6
  5. Dino Paolini

    Dino Paolini
    Premium Member

    Only good reason for a restart in my opinion is a mass-disconnect when joining the grid.
    That particular restart on the last race was not a good decision in my opinion.

    p.s: maybe also in a really extreme situation like half the grid out due to a huge lapspike on the server or something like that.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  6. Jim Hawley

    Jim Hawley
    PrestoGP Veteran

    I'm somewhat undecided now, the more I think about it

    I agree with all that Sean has written and also with Nico, I have no problem with the decision Nico made last night, as he say's, he has to go on instinct whilst trying to drive the first lap, and may well of been aware of the incident as he past it but not known if it had gotten a lot worse after he had left the scene, it does put a lot of pressure on him

    I can understand the reasons for us considering restarting in the future but also so many reasons not to

    Reasons not to:

    1, We've never done it before (tho it has been talked about)
    2, It is hard to draw the line at when it's necessary
    3, It's not fair on Nico to have to call it
    4, It may devalue the safety mindset
    5, It's why we have practice starts
    6, It is a competitive league with points placings and a championship
    7, If start #2 & #3 go pear shaped, then what
    8, We're all grown men that can handle disappointment (we're used to it by now)
    9, We won't have to debate it any more

    Reasons we should:

    1, It's only a game and we're all here to have fun
    2, It is painful to see many cars in the garage early on
    3, Big incidents mostly involve innocent parties that get caught up in it with no chance to avoid
    4, Erm.....?

    So as you can see I'm possibly leaning towards a no vote, but I would be in favor of a restart if something massive happened, like over half the grid got taken out in a Melbourne style shunt on the first lap, but then we come back to the "how does Nico make the decision" question

    My feeling is NO, unless Nico clearly sees something absolutely catastrophic unfolding infront of or around him, or when he passes the pits for the first time and sees most of us in there, then we just leave it to him to make the call, but we never ask for it

    Jim
     
    • Like Like x 6
  7. Nico, would you mind uploading the server replay of the aborted race? My local replay shows a very large [HUGE!] gap between Tim and David, however, clearly David made contact with Tim [ala A1 Ring Style; Suzuka 130R style]. An U-Tube Video would be 'nice' but please don't do any extra work. :)

    I am curious as I have little to no faith in my Internet Connection. I have little to no faith in Tim's and Anthony's either.

    I had an 'air-brush' contact with David once at an Hungoraring event which was discussed afterward [with video]. Safety margins increased for me after that....

    We have discussed Safety Margins often and I am wondering to whom and when they apply.

    On the issue of restarts, I think it is best not to [i.e.NO]. However, lessons must be learned from disasters or the grid will become smaller as time goes by. Competitivenss Vs a long term social cohesive group? I would have watched the race from the garage; others might feel gutted and left the game...

    P.S. Once again, thank you for the restart :) [I feel privileged :cool: ] but as you all know, I did not ask for it and never would have... If we were less competitive then it wouldn't matter eh?
     
    • Like Like x 6
  8. David Turnbull

    David Turnbull
    PrestoGP Veteran

    peter ive amended my last post to include a video of my view on the incident, seems my replay shows the same as yours, a huge gap, i purposely held the tighter line all the way around, i gave plenty of room after what happened at a1 ring but it wasnt enough, its getting to the stage a pass cant be made because the invisible box is massive.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. On my replay the gap between David and Tim is much larger again! A Winnebago would fit inbetween them. I suspect local replay files' accuracy diminishes the further the cars are away from our own.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Tim McIver

    Tim McIver
    PrestoGP Veteran Premium Member

    I better get in on the act here...

    First let me clarify what actually happened. I can see how Sean and David have come up with their versions of things though I would have appreciated the benefit of the doubt before being accused of all the things I was accused of in their posts.



    For better or worse it was me that called for a restart. As you can see from my replay, from my perspective the incident was very simple, David ran up the back of me pushed me off the track, I hit the wall, lost front wing and gained heavy suspension damage. I do understand that David was presumably unaware of the contact. It’s worth noting at this point that my internet connection is very good. Obviously there’s some intercontinental travel to consider as well, but this sync issue should not and has not ever been an issue before. What’s your connection like David? (this is not an accusation, I am genuinely interested)

    http://www.speedtest.net/result/2326426189.png

    I think Sean’s suggestion that if I had been more careful no further incident would have occurred is completely and totally wrong. I made no error, with no wing and bent suspension there was no way to avoid the next incident. At that point I saw many cars spinning, flying, hitting walls. Peter and Anthony were immediately out, at least 2 other cars had hit the wall hard, then there was me with heavy damage.

    After driving the next few corners, as David rightly points out, I suggested or asked about a restart. I don’t however quit after making an error, I quit after seeing in the chat that Nico had quit. If there was no restart I would have continued on and completed the race.

    I’m not aware of the no restarts rule that David has mentioned. There is no rule. There have been several discussions but there has never been a rule. Obviously it’s true that we’ve never done one before which is a fairly powerful precedent, but as far as I know there is no rule.

    I’m also a bit confused about Sean’s mentioning of the champion standings in his post. I was well aware of the standings and am very happy to admit that part of my reason for wanting a restart was because it would have been championship over. Whilst that was a factor, if I had made an error there is no way I would have ever called for a restart. If I was innocent but the only victim there’s no way I would have called for a restart. If however, I was innocent, it was lap one, cars were flying everywhere, two cars were already out, I didn’t know how many others had sustained damage, then you can see why the idea of a restart entered my mind.

    In the discussions we have had about restarts before, one of the things we had said was that it needs to be sorted on lap 1. So that was my intention, suggest it once, then drop the issue and get over it, as has happened to all of us at different points.

    Nico made a choice, and in one sense I am sorry for putting him in that position, but I thought he made a good choice. We restarted the race, it was a great race, 16 out of 17 cars finished. I’ll write another post on what I think about restarts, but as far as restarts go, this one was a good one.

    Tim
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. Valter Ostman

    Valter Ostman
    PrestoGP Veteran

    The restart:
    We have no clear rule for restarts and Nicolai made the right decision when so many said ok. I was gaining positions from the restart and had a suspension problem after passing the crash spot, thanks.

    Future:
    We will never in the next season(or later) reach such a high crash-out-number during a first lap as suggested above, half grid or somewhere in the region of 10 cars. I can bet one beer per car on this. Welcome with your bets/beers for next season.

    Why no restarts:
    1. Everything that happens in a race is the result of the pilots voluntary choices of action. No one is forced to drive on the limit on cold tires. You can only blame yourselves and feel ashamed in front of the innocent victims. That's life.

    2. When many cars crash out at the same time it's not any worse for each individual then if they get run off track all alone. Therefore, I think restarts based on quantity are controversial.

    3. Nicolai can't drive and count crashers at the same time without losing important time, very unfair.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  12. Reik Major

    Reik Major
    Premium Member

    I thought about writing a similar pro/con evaluation but couldn't have done it better (only worse I guess). I agree with Jims opinion, especially with the last paragraph.

    Edit:
    Even though this debate finally made me think like Jim about restarts I completely support Nicos decision to restart the race at Watkins Glen. Personally I think there's no answer if it was the best or most fair decision but it was a very good decision I think!

    By the way there'll never be that overall fairness applying to everyone at the same time. A thing which is fair for someone could be unfair for another one in the same situation. But over a longer period most likely things equalize by its own. That's why I'm never keen in raising the question about fairness too much.

    No doubt there's a need to clarify things now but since we never had a clarification about restarts yet I'm all fine with how things were handled so far. Thumbs up for Nico! :thumbsup: (I'd never be able to handle things like that and make some unpopulare decisions)
     
    • Like Like x 7
  13. David Turnbull

    David Turnbull
    PrestoGP Veteran

    tim i have the fastest uk internet connection, 120mb from virgin media, i suffer no problems like this with anyone else, now id like to know what we are accusing you of? ive stated exactly my opinion on why we restarted, ive not accused you of nothing and neither has sean, both of us are giving our thoughts into why there shouldve been no restart and im still under the impression that there shouldnt have been one even after you admitting part of your thoughts was so you didnt loose out on the championship fight, i think if you read back too i didnt say no restarts was a rule, i said no typing during the race was a rule that peter understood((i can see how my post confused that sorry), another thing thought about our incident, i didnt run up the back of you, as has been mentioned by peter and myself and the video posted theres a massive gap, if peter sees that on his replay being in the same country as you then id suggest its a repeating problem at your end, to make it a bit clearer though i wont be giving you anymore space than i did on wednesday, i purposely went tight to your wide to avoid this and it still happened, i cant race against you like that and wont be, ill leave the same room i left at watkins, if contact happens next time then it happens because i can only drive to what i see on screen and cant compensate for 12ft boxes round your car, i saw a clear gap and left a clear gap, did you? seeing as its both our problems to leave space and such to avoid these things im a bit annoyed it always comes down to the other party when your involved in a sync issue tim.

    can i ask what choice you voted for tim? i voted for yes but only in extreme circumstances, no doubt youll be voting yes to restarts? or have your feelings since changed?

    this is within the uk....
    http://www.speedtest.net/result/2327594713.png

    this is to sydney, australia.....
    http://www.speedtest.net/result/2327604386.png

    this is to oslo,norway.......
    http://www.speedtest.net/result/2327597655.png
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Valter Ostman

    Valter Ostman
    PrestoGP Veteran

    Some are involved more frequently due to their own doings. In an utopian world things equalize by its own.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Reik Major

    Reik Major
    Premium Member

    There's always a chance to adjust your own doing. ;)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Tim McIver

    Tim McIver
    PrestoGP Veteran Premium Member

    David:

    I'm not suggesting that you were at fault in this incident. I left room on the inside, you took the room. On my replay you run up the back of me, clearly that's not what actually happened. I completely agree that when the gaps there you take it, I expect nothing less.

    It is helpful to know that your connection is also very good. I think the only solution to this problem is upgrading to a newer sim.

    I've re-read your post and perhaps I took more offence than I should have. I found your description of my sequence of events somewhat accusatory as though it was an evil plot. Perhaps you didn't intend it that way.

    I think responding to you and Sean as one was also an error, sorry about that.

    You can ask what I voted. I didn't vote yet, I'm still thinking about it. I agree that implementing a restart rule is the hardest thing. I am definitely in favour in extreme circumstances but I do think there's room for restarts in less extreme cases as well but that needs a definition. I see it as very similar (in theory but not implementation) to our habit of cycling the server when someone gets dropped after qual.

    I do also understand why some people are angry that I even mentioned a restart. I'm sorry for causing that frustration. I know Peter never would have and I know Sean and David never would have. I thought it was worth asking, I wasn't going ask a second time. To clarify my motives. The race was ruined for 3 people at least, I suspected another 2 on top of that, we all wanted to go racing, so I asked.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  17. I don't like restarts at all even when they usually would improve my position considerably ;) But if there's 1/3 of the grid missing after the1st lap, then i would consider it as red flag and restart. Voted for "yes, but" option but half the grid is too much, 1/3 is closer to reality.

    I'm not in favor of any fixed number, would like a ratio instead but no one likes to calculate ratios when doing 320km/h.. I would say that 5 drivers or more is about 1/3 of our current grid. If there were real life stewards, 5-6 drivers would raise the red flag, there would be so much debris, car carcasses and medics/marshalls on track after that....

    If anyone gets caught abusing red flag, what would they do in real life? At least one race ban or ban from the league, zero tolerance.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. I've looked at the replays and read your posts and think the following (about the incident, not the restart):

    -I feel the second part of the incident was avoidable. I've looked at it many times and I feel almost certain I would been able to control the car and make a safe re-entry. I think the reason why it's happened is that Tim was thinking too much competition and too little safey after initial contact. (I beg forgiveness if I am mistaken).

    -I do not think the sync issue was as crazy as many others. Yes, the distance was perhaps further than average of what we seen before, but in no way out of the scale. I do not think there is a particular problem with Tim relative to Anthony and Peter. Only difference is that he is more competitive than the two others and are among more competitive drivers.

    -Although I do not blame David for the incident I do not applaud his attitude towards learning, understanding and evolving from lag and sync issues. Nor do I share the notion that this is Tim's problem as he is the one that is far away from the server. If we decide to have a league including all corners of the world, it is everybody's responsibillity to deal with the challenge it involves.

    I will not claim that I would not have done the same as David if I was in his situation, but honestly there is at least a chance that I would have refrained. From what David sais he will always go for it in that situation, and the reason why is that I think I understand the sync issue better than David and/or are less willing to take risks.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  19. I do have to bring one painful suggestion to the Table of Perfectionists.. If there are disconnects we should only prepare for one session rewind to get them back... I'm know that it sounds like as a-holish thing to suggest but as i've started to live a life of steady routine, i understand how much that extra time can do to a schedule.. When we do multiple reruns, the schedule moves later and later.. As an insomniac, i need to have very precise timing my medication, it takes about 1½h before i fall asleep after a race. I know that example is my personal issue but wouldn't say anything unless i would be positive that i'm not alone on this subject (about timetable consistency, not medication ;) )

    We don't need to discuss it now but sometime in the future maybe?
     
    • Like Like x 2

  20. Just to make it clear here : I did NOT ask for any restart, the one and only message i typed was " what exactly happened there?" , it was my sudden expression after that high speed impact as i was still in a shock to absorb what exactly happened , the only moment I realised the presence of Tim when he was somehow next to Peter and still racing , the moment after I found myself in the air flying .

    The impact sent me to the other side of the track leaving my car on 3 wheels with no front and rear wings but that did not make me lose the motivation to carry on racing , i tried to get the car back to the pit but the car did not move, so i pressed escape.



    I share with you the same Nico and i believe you have done the right call , thank you i did enjoy the race very much, sure it was a tough decision but a correct one considering the main reason for this league and i have to add here that i feel we are slowly moving away from the right image that the league was founded on towards a less friendly atmosphere , we definitely need to create rules around the restart etc but we should foucs on getting things done in a most friendly way as "FUN" start to get exhausted here .
    Anthony

     
    • Like Like x 6