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Now we need better clutch support ;-)

Discussion in 'RaceRoom Racing Experience' started by Le_Poilu, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. Now with the release of dtm 92 car packs we have lots of great cars to drive with H shifter, and they're not alone: The audi GTO, etc are also H pattern shifter car.

    But, there's a big but. Clutch support is still an issue in r3e.

    What we have today :

    - a clutch setting "auto" or "manual" in the general settings of the game named "car settings". Some reminiscence of old menus/settings I guess.
    - an H pattern yes/no in controls settings
    - sensitivity and "dead zone" (only for IN/begin) in advanced settings in controllers settings.
    - No awareness at all about the kind of gearbox the car you drive. You need to set auto clutch when driving a sequential gearbox car, otherwise you will damage the transmission in less than 2 laps
    - clutch release/spinning point to is set to 100% pedal press. You need to fully press the clutch pedal. This is not realistic, release point is more often somewhere in the middle of the travel of the clutch pedal. It's hard to drive fast and impossible to drive with mechanical damage On, you'll damage the transmission in few laps...
    - no slipping zone on the clutch release point. Looks like some ON/Off button.
    - with "mechanical damage" Off you can drive a H pattern gearbox without pressing the clutch (manual clutch ON) . There's nothing against it, and nothing to tell you that you need to use the clutch pedals. The car will drive as if you pressed clutch pedal.

    Now what we need :

    - the first very little thing that can help will be to be able to set an "out/end" deadzone for the clutch.
    With that we will be able to move the release point were it should be : not at the end of the travel of the clutch pedal (in a much more realistic point )
    - the second will be to get rid of the "car settings" in the general game settings and put the clutch settings were the direction settings are now : in the car setup menu. Or at least in the session settings.
    - Last but not least. The "get real" need to consider the gearbox type of the car and automatically change the type of clutch depending of it: H pattern, sequential with clutch, sequential robotised, etc. So we will not have to change the clutch settings and leave it on some "get real" settings
    - not being able to shift so easily without a good clutch release/engage timing in "get real" while driving a h pattern gearbox car.


    I really hope we will have some improvement here, at this time the joy of driving dtm 92 car is a little bit reduced by all of this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Msportdan

    Msportdan
    @ Simberia @Simberia

    I just bought a g27 and first time ever used clutch h shifter. Wow total different experience bloody hard as well, especially down shifting.

    Surprised I can select gears without the clutch. Seemed like should be optional.

    Also I think throttle blip is auto love option for this.
    But yeah atm I'm not sure I'm even a challenge for lowest ai lol
     
  3. The more hardcore clutch simulation in get real should be entirely optional and not a requirement for get real. I don´t really find that all that fun. Initially I bought my pedals without a clutch because I use it so little. So sure implement it but make it optional for get real mode not mandatory...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Now what we need :

    - the first very little thing that can help will be to be able to set an "out/end" deadzone for the clutch.
    With that we will be able to move the release point were it should be : not at the end of the travel of the clutch pedal (in a much more realistic point )
    - the second will be to get rid of the "car settings" in the general game settings and put the clutch settings were the direction settings are now : in the car setup menu. Or at least in the session settings.
    - Last but not least. The "get real" need to consider the gearbox type of the car and automatically change the type of clutch depending of it: H pattern, sequential with clutch, sequential robotised, etc. So we will not have to change the clutch settings and leave it on some "get real" settings
    - not being able to shift so easily without a good clutch release/engage timing in "get real" while driving a h pattern gearbox car.


    I really hope we will have some improvement here, at this time the joy of driving dtm 92 car is a little bit reduced by all of this.[/QUOTE]

    I pretty much agree with everything here. ESPECIALLY the car setting option not available when in a race. It annoys the @#$% outta me when I drove a paddle shift car previously and forget to change it when I start a race with a h shift car and have to exit out of the race to change the auto clutch setting. ( sorry for the run on sentence lol)
     
  5. Brandon Wright

    Brandon Wright
    I'm just here for the snacks Premium Member

    And not all of us have h-shifters with our wheels, so forcing it on would be a bit of an issue for those without one.
     
  6. They obvously couldnt do that. They can just do what Assetto Corsa does. The game determine ( or you choose) what setup you have and it will adjust accordingly.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. Auto clutch on/off is pre-configured on F5, so no need to leave the race. You can change it whenever you like to..
     
    • Beer Beer x 3
  8. Denis Betty

    Denis Betty
    Monkey's B Staff Premium Member

    Have you guys tried adjusting the bite point of the clutch using DX Tweak?
    I was getting annoyed that I kept stalling whilst stationary unless the pedal was all the way down (in another sim but the principal is the same).
    I set a dead zone using DXT and it's much better. The only problem is that if I set the bite point too high, I have difficulty getting a good start, due partly (I think) to the lack of any feedback on forward motion from the sim. The clutch also becomes more "fierce" due to the reduced range between a fully disengaged and fully engaged clutch. This can lead to bogging down or even stalling.
    Any changes to the parameters of a given controller will be in effect for ALL sims or games.
    I'm not completely sure where you DL the software for DXT. I got it for free some time ago but I'm not sure where.

    Edit: A quick search yielded this result HERE with an explanation of how to use some of the facilities of DXT. There is also a DL link but I've not tried it and I'm not suggesting that anybody else should. That of course is up to the individual. :cautious:
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2014
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Did not know this.. Thank you. Is there a keyboard shortcut legend anywhere?
     
  10. Peter

    Peter
    Premium Member

    • Beer Beer x 1
  11. You're right, this can be tight to the device plugged.
     
  12. I just blew the clutch on my Mustang in a MP race. It was the 92 DTM Mustang. Bloody hilarious.:roflmao: I guess I will have to put auto clutch back on and still use my clutch anyway. I'll have to pretend that I'm actually doing something by depressing it. LOL
     
    • Haha Haha x 1
  13. Msportdan

    Msportdan
    @ Simberia @Simberia

    I just loving this clutch stick lark!!! the ai are defo more challenging now ive even reset my adaptive settings.

    gonna play all cars with this I think.. funny how much more natural it feels too!!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. I completely agree with the sentiment to make it autosensing depneding on your setup and the chosen car.

    Proper transmission simulation is in my opinion the next thing that NEEDS to go in the code for the base package. It's a bit silly to have a really good physics simulation and all those fancy cars only to have the transmissions break down on all modern sequentials after two laps, or after missing some 100% clutch bite point on H-shift cars, unless you run with mechanical damage off.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Yeah, kinda makes all this expensive sim gear pointless.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Andi Goodwin

    Andi Goodwin
    Premium Member

    how much of a sim do you want ; how real ?
    how do we balance that issue ? auto detect for your hardware is sucky i believe , it will fail or has the potential to fail ..; my thrs8 shifter , the game sees it but hasnt a clue to whether its in h or sequential setup .... for example

    paddle shifts...autoclutch
    most modern sequentials autoclutch
    older sequentials no clutch up revmatch /blip+clutch down /
    hshifter clutch+blip+revmatch

    for me this should all be optional because its a choice to go full on , so why not set a profiler for that ; it takes a click to change /10 seconds extra when loading up the game

    as for better clutch support ill pose the question to exactly what it is at present (how its set etc)

    Andi
     
  17. Msportdan

    Msportdan
    @ Simberia @Simberia

    "Yeah, kinda makes all this expensive sim gear pointless".

    exactly....

    ive just taken my g27 back and ordered a TX, I agree I only really like racing race cars not road, cars. I would never use the clutch and stick. Having stuck the DFGT back in I think FFB is not much at all difference. So I want to go for a better FFB, pedals I can live with and I love the ecosystem when I can change the wheel. Maybe GTE in the future. Only thing I miss is the sequential stick on the DFGT, shame no wheel has this now.
     
  18. Yeah, of course it should be optional. But the possibility for autoset should be there, like it is now for steering lock since some updates ago... (autoset to correct car value).

    For hw not detected properly or for wanting to choose less realism in shifting, it needs to be optional as you say, no question about that.

    The biggest issue is not the setting itself though, it's the simulation of the trasmission that is lacking really.

    As for realism i believe that all aspects of the racing car should be simulated properly, as in as close to realistic behaviour as computationally possible. On top of this you could then add some helpsystems that you can turn on or off, to operate this simulation... But the core simulation would remain intact under the hood.

    As it is now, the simulation of transmission components and forces (as in drivetrain dynamics) seem simplified and wrong. This should be overhauled, especially as there is now many cars in the sim that would really feel different to anyone if more accurate drivetrain modeling was used.

    S3 appears to have a very good core team (more so than any other developer in this subgenre i believe) so CPU overhead is very low at the moment, so there is room for adding more realistic simulations of vehicle systems.

    But of course this must be balanced with settings that enable or disable help in handling these systems.

    The tire model could use a small checkup too, for instance.

    But if you get to ask about the state of transmission models, please ask if there are indeed "magic" numbers used for clutch bite points and slip as it seems... Because right now you break your gearbox no matter what you do.

    Also... Please ask if there is some modeling of load distribution and it's effect on differential slip, it does not seem that way. Diff also seems to use some "magic" numbers instead of full dynamic modeling.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  19. This