Now we need better clutch support ;-)

Le_Poilu · Dec 26, 2014

Now with the release of dtm 92 car packs we have lots of great cars to drive with H shifter, and they're not alone: The audi GTO, etc are also H pattern shifter car.

But, there's a big but. Clutch support is still an issue in r3e.

What we have today :

- a clutch setting "auto" or "manual" in the general settings of the game named "car settings". Some reminiscence of old menus/settings I guess.
- an H pattern yes/no in controls settings
- sensitivity and "dead zone" (only for IN/begin) in advanced settings in controllers settings.
- No awareness at all about the kind of gearbox the car you drive. You need to set auto clutch when driving a sequential gearbox car, otherwise you will damage the transmission in less than 2 laps
- clutch release/spinning point to is set to 100% pedal press. You need to fully press the clutch pedal. This is not realistic, release point is more often somewhere in the middle of the travel of the clutch pedal. It's hard to drive fast and impossible to drive with mechanical damage On, you'll damage the transmission in few laps...
- no slipping zone on the clutch release point. Looks like some ON/Off button.
- with "mechanical damage" Off you can drive a H pattern gearbox without pressing the clutch (manual clutch ON) . There's nothing against it, and nothing to tell you that you need to use the clutch pedals. The car will drive as if you pressed clutch pedal.

Now what we need :

- the first very little thing that can help will be to be able to set an "out/end" deadzone for the clutch.
With that we will be able to move the release point were it should be : not at the end of the travel of the clutch pedal (in a much more realistic point )
- the second will be to get rid of the "car settings" in the general game settings and put the clutch settings were the direction settings are now : in the car setup menu. Or at least in the session settings.
- Last but not least. The "get real" need to consider the gearbox type of the car and automatically change the type of clutch depending of it: H pattern, sequential with clutch, sequential robotised, etc. So we will not have to change the clutch settings and leave it on some "get real" settings
- not being able to shift so easily without a good clutch release/engage timing in "get real" while driving a h pattern gearbox car.

I really hope we will have some improvement here, at this time the joy of driving dtm 92 car is a little bit reduced by all of this.

SnappyDEe · Dec 29, 2014

Msportdan said:
"Yeah, kinda makes all this expensive sim gear pointless".

exactly....

ive just taken my g27 back and ordered a TX, I agree I only really like racing race cars not road, cars. I would never use the clutch and stick. Having stuck the DFGT back in I think FFB is not much at all difference. So I want to go for a better FFB, pedals I can live with and I love the ecosystem when I can change the wheel. Maybe GTE in the future. Only thing I miss is the sequential stick on the DFGT, shame no wheel has this now.

One warning about the TX: The stock pedals. They are functional but leave a lot to be desired regarding the brake pedal. I was coming from a load cell brake so I found myself locking up all the time with the stock brake. You can tweak settings within the game to compensate. Brake sensitivity setting. Also, you may find that you will miss that clutch once it's gone. Also, the stock wheel rim is weird. It felt too light to me. I now run the GTE wheel which is really awesome. I'm not happy with the wheel diameter but it does the job. I'm hoping to use an adapter to create a wheel with a slightly largeer and more realistic diameter. In any case, I think you will absolutely enjoy the TX. Great wheel. Best of luck.

Msportdan · Dec 29, 2014

yeah I was aware of the pedals, but to be fair im used to the dfgt setm and they are about the same. Im not sure I will miss the clutch as im not sure it really works as real as they could in pc sims.

I did do a lot of thinking, and just thought for me ffb is quite important, I may get the GTE one day.. just have to go back to left foot braking thas'all lol

Peter · Dec 29, 2014

@SnappyDEe
Wrap the wheels with bicycle tape, feels a bit more real.

Msportdan · Dec 29, 2014

ive just cancelled my tx order im worried now that it wont be much better than the DFGT. the pedals are about the same I suppose. and I love the sequential shifter in the dfgt.
ive read a few reliability problems and game crashes on the tx. and awful support should it go wrong

now im stuck..

Greg Latty · Dec 29, 2014

Msportdan said:
ive just cancelled my tx order im worried now that it wont be much better than the DFGT. the pedals are about the same I suppose. and I love the sequential shifter in the dfgt.
ive read a few reliability problems and game crashes on the tx. and awful support should it go wrong

now im stuck..

Should've kept the g27 until you figured it out

. IMHO thats the best wheel you can find for that price. And its a complete package. Wheel pedal and shifters. The FFB might not be as good as the thrustmaster tx or t500 but for that price it cant be beat.

Msportdan · Dec 29, 2014

I suppose but buying from pc world I was lucky to get the money back when I did...

KevinSammut · Dec 29, 2014

Denis Betty said:
Have you guys tried adjusting the bite point of the clutch using DX Tweak?
I was getting annoyed that I kept stalling whilst stationary unless the pedal was all the way down (in another sim but the principal is the same).
I set a dead zone using DXT and it's much better. The only problem is that if I set the bite point too high, I have difficulty getting a good start, due partly (I think) to the lack of any feedback on forward motion from the sim. The clutch also becomes more "fierce" due to the reduced range between a fully disengaged and fully engaged clutch. This can lead to bogging down or even stalling.
Any changes to the parameters of a given controller will be in effect for ALL sims or games.
I'm not completely sure where you DL the software for DXT. I got it for free some time ago but I'm not sure where.

Edit: A quick search yielded this result HERE with an explanation of how to use some of the facilities of DXT. There is also a DL link but I've not tried it and I'm not suggesting that anybody else should. That of course is up to the individual.

Thanks for this, works great on other sims, but I keep damaging the gearbox on RRE and I've been driving with H shifter on LFS for many years now.

Andi Goodwin · Dec 29, 2014

question ...

damage as in the light comes on (as such in damage hud)
or "**** of i got a random box of spanners for a gearbox " damaged

Andi

KevinSammut · Dec 29, 2014

Andi Goodwin said:
question ...

damage as in the light comes on (as such in damage hud)
or "**** of i got a random box of spanners for a gearbox " damaged

Andi

Hi Andi, the gear with the ! comes on in the upper right corner.

Thanks

Zzyzx · Dec 29, 2014

Richard Eriksson said:
Because right now you break your gearbox no matter what you do.

It's been a while since I tried RRRE but this was the problem I had last time I did. I have an H-shifter (TH8RS) and a clutch pedal (T500RS) and I have been heel-toeing now for nearly two years and feel I have become quite adept. I can heel-toe perfectly well using rFactor's grinding tranny plug-in, for example. However if I turn off auto-clutch in RRRE and drive the BMW 320 Turbo, the gearbox is ruined after only 2-3 laps. Now maybe I'm the worst heel-toer out there but frankly I don't think that's true. Like people have said above, it seems there is something wrong with RRRE's simulation of the clutch etc.

Can a dev or some other expert comment on this? If the problem isn't solved I am likely to give up with RRRE because my main interest in sims is older 60s-80s cars.

Thanks.

KevinSammut · Dec 29, 2014

I just tried other sims to be sure, not pressing clutch on purpose.
in LFS and Pcars if I do not press clutch it remains in Neutral.
in AC you have the damage indicator blinking red, so I'm not doing something wrong because
on these sims clutch works perfectly.

Hope they solve this because I'm loving DTM 92 and it will be nice to play it to the full.
For now I will disable mechanical damage or use paddle shift.

SnappyDEe · Dec 29, 2014

@Msportdan - evry wheel wil have its little niggles. The TX is great and I have not had a problem with yet. Im going on a year now with it and the th8rs shifter. Both are V1 versions. The stock wheel rim sucks. Its hollow plastic but I beleive it comes down to personal taste. I've seen many people post that they dont mind it. Im addicted to SIM racing so I had no issue getting the GTE rim.

Msportdan · Dec 29, 2014

whats the FFb like on RRE? have you used a Logitech?

Richard Eriksson · Dec 30, 2014

Msportdan said:
ive just cancelled my tx order im worried now that it wont be much better than the DFGT. the pedals are about the same I suppose. and I love the sequential shifter in the dfgt.
ive read a few reliability problems and game crashes on the tx. and awful support should it go wrong

now im stuck..

May i suggest Fanatec? The belt drives are a wonder of smoothness. They have reliability issues from time to time, but the feel of the wheels are great.

I will never go back to a geared wheel again after using belt drive... Can't stand that rattling feel when turning.

For replacing the G27 maybe a GT3 RS V2 wheel with shifter kit and Elite pedals. The Fanatec load cell pedals by the way, are the best i've tried...

James Cook · Dec 30, 2014

Yep, Fanatec should be a consideration too. I've been using the CSR for three years now and aside from a few minor niggles it's still going strong. Admittedly it's only a mid-range wheel but I've been very pleased with it. The CSR/GT2/GT3 are essentially the same platform so all worth considering.

I've been using the Clubsport V2s for about 18 months. These are excellent pedals for the price. Once you go load cell there's no going back.

Earlier this year I picked up a TH8RS shifter with the Basherboard adapter. Another great piece of kit in both sequential and H-pattern modes.

SnappyDEe · Dec 30, 2014

@Msportdan - Never tried the Logitech wheels. I am relatively new to sim racing. I had a Fanatec GT2 wheel before the Thrustmaster TX. I have to say that I like the Thrustmaster wheel better. It is smoother and quieter. It is also much stronger. Although, I have to admit that the GT2 was getting older so it may have just been at the end of it's life cycle.

The Fanatec pedals are fantastic and I would say that they may be slightly more important than the wheel itself. Particularly the brake pedal. It's a load cell, as James has pointed out, so you are no longer relying on your positional memory for braking but muscle memory instead. It has a much more ....natural feel. As natural as a sim could be, I guess. The only issue I have now is with the clutch modeling in R3E. I have to play around to see if I can get that sorted.

On a side note: I started like a lot of SIM racers... On a console - Gran Turismo, Forza, etc. I must say that the one feature I miss the most is the vibration feature on the brake pedal. I have yet to see a SIM that supports that on the Fanatec pedals ( I know that there some plug ins and stuff but I'm not really good with the computer yet

). It was great in Forza 4. The pedals would vibrate when I was on the verge of lock up. So helpful. I know that there are console detractors out there. Arcade versus SIM and all that, but when you love cars and motorsport it's all worth a try.