Is there too much grip in AC?

[Radek Zukowski]

Many simracers think that there is too much grip in AC. What do you think? Please explain.

I personally think that road cars are fine, but race cars feels very grippy, especially when braking. For example, on Mugello in Zonda I can brake from about 300 kph into first turn just before 100m sign. In P4/5 I can brake after 100m sign. That's really really short (almost F1 like) and just doesn't feel right.

Also, according to Top Gear, Zonda R stops from 200kph to 0 in 4.3 seconds.
A member from Simracing.pl (norbi) measured times in AC (few different tracks - Mugello, Monza, measurements taken a few times):
hard tires - 3,7s (ABS), 3,6s (no ABS)
medium tires - 3,7s (ABS), 3,5s (no ABS)
soft tires - 3,7s (ABS), 3,4s (no ABS)

Since threads on AC forum discussing grip were closed I decided to discuss it here.

 

[Dave Robinson]

IMO there is a tiny tiny bit too much grip, if they removed a little bit then I think it would be spot on. Having said that AC for me is the closest thing we have at the moment.
I sure hope they nail Mulitplayer
I did not vote as I believe it only has a tiny bit to much.

 

[Tomaz Selcan]

Was the gear ratio same as in TopGear? And I think that TC was activated in TopGear?

 

[Radek Zukowski]

Was the gear ratio same as in TopGear? And I think that TC was activated in TopGear?

What does TC have to do with braking? Gearing also doesn't have too much impact on braking. Also you can't change gearing in AC so I think that's how it is in real life.
And I don't think Top Gear measured the values, I think the info was provided by Pagani.

 

[Tomaz Selcan]

Ups sorry..i read it wrong. I was thinking about acceleration. Which doesn't make sence now when i think about it

I just get up can't think straight

 

[LazyBug]

Is that really matter ?? Zonda R must always stops from 200kph to 0 in 4.3 seconds regardless the road surface / car setup / tyre pressure & all that ??

 

[Radek Zukowski]

No, but I think it should be close to the numbers. The difference is quite big, don't you think? If it varied from I don't know for example 3.9 to 4.5 it would be ok with me. But the braking is super short.

 

[UOPshadow]

How should I possibly know? I’ve never driven Zonda in RL. And to your numbers... Im sure they vary in RL depending on the track, the weather and the tyres.

I trust Kunos in this regard, that they tried their best and maybe refine what has to be refined, it's still a beta and we'll get regular updates.

 

[Ben Lee]

I personally think the road cars are fine. However I would agree that the race cars *seem* to have too much grip. I say "seem", because I don't know for sure, I haven't done any maths or any tests, its just a "feeling".

 

[betterstranger]

No, but I think it should be close to the numbers. The difference is quite big, don't you think? If it varied from I don't know for example 3.9 to 4.5 it would be ok with me. But the braking is super short.

What about fuel load? You don't need to be an engineer to think how fully loaded car will brake and how one with enough fuel for 1 lap... I see no informations about that.
What about the slope angle of the road? What about temperature of the surface on which real tests were made and its difference in relation to the temperature of the surface ingame? What about the differences in tires temp. between the two tests? What about the dampness of the two surfaces?
What about the tires type? Were both slicks (I guess) made of the same compound? And if not, if the tires had treads what was compound and the depth of treads (one of the key factors)?
What about the wind conditions? 10m/s wind can change braking distance by 1m (at the 100-0 km/h). What about the temperatures of the brakes???

There's NO INFORMATION AT ALL about the testing environment(s). It makes me laugh when I see that people are making game vs. reality tests by just clicking the mouse three times... Anyone who was working in laboratory or even studying on tech. uni know that most of the test are made in accordance to standards or guidelines. That's why most of the measurements are made in laboratory conditions - because that's much easier to compare the results between the tests made in similar conditions.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I take any real racing driver's feedback on grip over 1000 of simracers impressions on realism.

Most of us have never driven a single race car in our lives, heck some haven't even driven a real road car yet. <--- that alone should rule a lot of people out of commenting on "realism" imo.

It's a game, it's not real life and it never will become real life unless somebody creates Assetto Drone Corsa

 

[Radek Zukowski]

I take any real racing driver's feedback on grip over 1000 of simracers impressions on realism.

Most of us have never driven a single race car in our lives, heck some haven't even driven a real road car yet. <--- that alone should rule a lot of people out of commenting on "realism" imo.

It's a game, it's not real life and it never will become real life unless somebody creates Assetto Drone Corsa

What about fuel load? You don't need to be an engineer to think how fully loaded car will brake and how one with enough fuel for 1 lap... I see no informations about that.
What about the slope angle of the road? What about temperature of the surface on which real tests were made and its difference in relation to the temperature of the surface ingame? What about the differences in tires temp. between the two tests? What about the dampness of the two surfaces?

There's NO INFORMATION AT ALL about the testing environment(s). It makes me laugh when I see that people are making game vs. reality tests by just clicking the mouse three times... Anyone who was working in laboratory or even studying on tech. uni know that most of the test are made in accordance to standards or guidelines. That's why most of the measurements are made in laboratory conditions - because that's much easier to compare the results between the tests made in similar conditions.

I don't know about fuel load.
For the rest, what do you think, when company makes performance tests of their cars, do they do it in not optimal conditions? On damp track? Or do they try to measure it is optimal conditions to have the best possible result? Think about it. These numbers are to show the car in the best way.

 

[betterstranger]

I don't know about fuel load.
For the rest, what do you think, when company makes performance tests of their cars, do they do it in not optimal conditions? On damp track? Or do they try to measure it is optimal conditions to have the best possible result? Think about it. These numbers are to show the car in the best way.

I added few questions:

What about the tires type? Were both slicks (I guess) made of the same compound? And if not, if the tires had treads what was compound and the depth of treads (one of the key factors)?
What about the wind conditions? 10m/s wind can change braking distance by 1m (at the 100-0 km/h). What about the temperatures of the brakes???

For the rest, what do you think, when company makes performance tests of their cars, do they do it in not optimal conditions?

Is that another guess? If you know something about the procedures I'd like to hear about it. That's not 'guess who?'.

 

[Radek Zukowski]

Jesus. That's just common sense. What do you think? Pagani claim that Zonda R 0-100 is 2.7 s. Do you think they did this on a damp track with 100kg fuel? Or did they try to maximize the performance?

 

[betterstranger]

Jesus. That's just common sense. What do you think? Pagani claim that Zonda R 0-100 is 2.7 s. Do you think they did this on a damp track with 100kg fuel? Or did they try to maximize the performance?

Mate, think. Comparing 2 values when you don't have ANY idea where did they come from doesn't make sense.
Zonda F is claimed to stop from 200-0 in 4.4". 0.1s of difference between the F and the R? How about that? Zonda Cinque 200-0 in 4.3" - same as Zonda R. It's getting even more interesting! 150kg of difference and still the same stopping time!
Think about it.

 

[Qazdar Karim]

The way you brake while squatting your town's streets is not comparable to a race braking,the last one is usually more agressive !

Concerning realism,i don't think that anyone has the right to judge it unless he has that same car in real life (and still) ... i myself own a normal road car (close to the abbarth),all i can say,is that at low speed,there is not much to say about AC handling and physics,it just feels natural !

 

[Dinca Andrei]

I`ve done some tests too and i can confirm that with default settings and default everything from wether/time of day to car setup the brake time is around ~3.7 sec +-0,1sec

Now i tried to see if its possible to change the setup of the car...
Things changed:
Camber almost close to 0
Toe almost close to 0
Tires presure high
Brake bias 75%
ABS:ON
This resulted in a surprise braking time: ~4,1 sec +-0,1 sec at 201 km/h(125mph)
Track Monza

"Jeremy claims the R is the the easiest Zonda yet to drive, due to the grippy slick tyres and the sheer stopping power available from the carbon brakes – which can take the car from 125mph to 0 in just 4.3 seconds."

I say its damn close and if ANY Sim could reproduce this exactly like the real life car than i can say i will be gobsmacked....

Here is a video i`ve made...

 

[Radek Zukowski]

So you broke the setup to achieve worse times? Brake it even more so maybe it will be even worse?

 

[Dinca Andrei]

Thats to show you it is possible..and the setup is not broken...
Ideal camber and toe for better speed/brake is close to 0...
We dont know with what setup was the real Zonda tested...
Ok so lets say for the sake of discution,that there is a difference from 4.3 to 3.7....thats 0.600 maybe with +-0.100 (because not everyone brakes the same)
So we have half a second...damn...thats alot you think,well...in real time,its not even noticeble....and like i said,if ANY Sim can achive this then i will withdraw everything i said.Deal?

 

[Radek Zukowski]

Listen guys, It's not that I will defend this at any cost, I'm just seeking the truth.
It well may be that Clarkson took the data from the wrong sheet (Zonda Cinque), I can't find any other info about Zonda R braking.