Has Anyone Ever Had This Problem With Their Pedals?

[Spinelli]

NOTE: THIS HAS BEEN 100% FIXED. SEE POST #42 HERE FOR DETAILS

This occurs with the throttle and clutch pedal. Possibly the brake as well but it's difficult to tell with the strong elastomers I currently have on.

As you can see, the actual raw values calibration changes depending on graphical load.

Things I've tried:

• powering off, and even disconnecting, all other devices (therefore probably not an EMI issue)
• connecting ground wire (recommended on lots of the eBay/AliExpress pedals)
• disconnecting all other USB devices
• connecting to every USB input on back of PC
• external un-powered USB hub

99.99999% sure the issue isn't my PC but here are the parts for the sake of info:
Motherboard: MSI Z690 Edge DDR4
CPU: 12900KS
GPU: 4090
RAM: 32GB (2x 16GB) G.Skill Trident Z Royal 4400 MHz DDR4
PSU: Antec HCP-1200

I've seen quite a few reviews of eBay / AliExpress pedals, mostly of the SimJacks though which aren't quite the same as these. None of those reviews mentioned an issue like this.

What is interesting is, a while ago, I read a long Russian-language forum about - apparently - the first guy who created these pedals (ie. a cheaper, knockoff of the Heusinkvelds). He was discussing and showing the design, electronics, etc. in depth with others. Apparently this is the design the eBay/AliExpress pedals got their design from. In that thread, I saw something about the pedal electronics possibly needing an upgrade or else they could experience an issue like I'm having - something about some part (loadcell? amp? ADC?) and voltage-drop during high PC loads if I understood correctly.

NOTE: THIS HAS BEEN 100% FIXED. SEE POST #42 HERE FOR DETAILS

 

[Neilski]

Wow, that's freaky! Nope, never seen anything like it before.

But a voltage droop does sound like a potentially plausible reason for that kind of crap to happen, except that you're talking about a USB pedal here, right? It's not hard to regulate the 5 V to USB devices, and even a heavy load on the PC (CPU, GPU) shouldn't pull down that line anyway, unless the PSU is at near-catastrophic load levels. On top of all of that, if you also have a clutch pedal it should presumably happen with that too (guessing it's a load cell for the brake?).

But do you have a multimeter and the ability to get into the pedals to measure the voltages? If so, you can check if things are sagging. (At the pots, if the pedals use pots, or even just the input voltage from the USB.)

Another thing to try is HWinfo64 which can monitor the many voltages on the motherboard - by comparing min/max (etc.) under load and idle... well you probably know this stuff already.

Also, did you try a powered USB hub?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Also, did you try a powered USB hub?

Second that, that should completely eliminate USB power draw from the board and guarantee 500mA for USB 2.0.

 

[Spinelli]

Wow, that's freaky! Nope, never seen anything like it before.

But a voltage droop does sound like a potentially plausible reason for that kind of crap to happen, except that you're talking about a USB pedal here, right? It's not hard to regulate the 5 V to USB devices, and even a heavy load on the PC (CPU, GPU) shouldn't pull down that line anyway, unless the PSU is at near-catastrophic load levels. On top of all of that, if you also have a clutch pedal it should presumably happen with that too (guessing it's a load cell for the brake?).

But do you have a multimeter and the ability to get into the pedals to measure the voltages? If so, you can check if things are sagging. (At the pots, if the pedals use pots, or even just the input voltage from the USB.)

Another thing to try is HWinfo64 which can monitor the many voltages on the motherboard - by comparing min/max (etc.) under load and idle... well you probably know this stuff already.

Also, did you try a powered USB hub?

I did not try a powered USB hub. I don't have one (I don't use USB hubs, powered or un-powered but I hear powered ones are great).

The pedals all use loadcells. This does not happen with the clutch or brake so how could it potentially be down to my motherboard's USB? I tried all 10 or so USBs. I also tried with no other devices plugged into the USBs (besides mouse and keyboard) so I still don't see how it could have anything to do with my motherboard's USB slots.

I sent them back a few months back and got refunded but I'm wondering if I just got a bad set because no one else seems to have - or at least notice - this issue with their sets.

Due to the current sale / price-drop - and because I am speaking to the maker himself rather than just a third-party seller - I re-purchased them. He is not going to send them to me until I am happy with the videos he's sending me of my unit.

No idea if those pics will help any one.

 

[stigs2cousin]

What happens if you swap the cables on clutch and accelerator?

If the problem stays with throttle, it may be that the loadcell is defectiv?

But no idea how this coincides with high graphics loads.

That´s all assuming your power supply delivers constant 5v?
Do you have logs of the internal voltages?

 

[Neilski]

The pedals all use loadcells. This does not happen with the clutch or brake so how could it potentially be down to my motherboard's USB?

Wow, don't think I've ever come across accel/clutch pedals using load cells, that's pretty strange.
And I have no idea why it should be happening with any of the pedals, but the fact that the system load is affecting the readout raises at least the possibility of a voltage droop.
Did you give HWinfo64 a whirl?

What happens if you swap the cables on clutch and accelerator?

If the problem stays with throttle, it may be that the loadcell is defectiv?

Good idea.
The pic (and the fact that there are 3 load cells) suggests that the PCB has 3 instrumentation amps mounted on it. Maybe one of them is somehow misbehaving - so if the problem stays with the accel pedal maybe that implicates the amp.

It's a barmy fault.
But if you can rule out voltage droop as a cause (probably shouldn't be hard to rule it in or out) then you're down to digital weirdness happening - AFTER the signal is digitised and sent over the USB bus, which is frankly far more barmy.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Wow, don't think I've ever come across accel/clutch pedals using load cells, that's pretty strange.

Heusinkveld pedals are all load cell.

 

[Spinelli]

What happens if you swap the cables on clutch and accelerator?

If the problem stays with throttle, it may be that the loadcell is defectiv?

But no idea how this coincides with high graphics loads.

That´s all assuming your power supply delivers constant 5v?
Do you have logs of the internal voltages?

And I have no idea why it should be happening with any of the pedals, but the fact that the system load is affecting the readout raises at least the possibility of a voltage droop.
Did you give HWinfo64 a whirl?

Good idea.
The pic (and the fact that there are 3 load cells) suggests that the PCB has 3 instrumentation amps mounted on it. Maybe one of them is somehow misbehaving - so if the problem stays with the accel pedal maybe that implicates the amp.

It's a barmy fault.
But if you can rule out voltage droop as a cause (probably shouldn't be hard to rule it in or out) then you're down to digital weirdness happening - AFTER the signal is digitised and sent over the USB bus, which is frankly far more barmy.

I plugged the clutch pedal into the throttle jack and throttle pedal into the clutch jack. The issue continued but I can't remember if the issue was then with the clutch pedal (plugged into the throttle jack) or continued with the throttle pedal (plugged into the clutch jack). However, I'm fairly certain the issue remained with the throttle pedal, otherwise, I would have kept the pedals switched so that the throttle pedal would be fixed and the clutch pedal would become the messed up one. I didn't do that though so I'm 75% sure the issue remained with the throttle.

Interesting you mention the amplifiers on the electronics controller board. The Russian thread that said this problem could potentially happen (if I'm remembering and understood it correctly) was talking about amps. I should try and find it.

Wow, don't think I've ever come across accel/clutch pedals using load cells, that's pretty strange.

I'm pretty sure it's fairly common with higher-end pedal sets. Heusinkveld has always used loadcells on all 3 pedals.


P.S. Just tested the Thrust T-LCM pedals. Perfect calibration numbers regardless if I'm at the desktop, low gfx game, or high gfx game.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I'm pretty sure it's fairly common with higher-end pedal sets. Heusinkveld has always used loadcells on all 3 pedals.

It's common in endless HE pedals copies.

 

[Spinelli]

It's common in endless HE pedals copies.

Haha yes If only I could find a fairly priced set of used Hesinkveld Ultimate non-plus...and if only they came in all black (like these clones). I refuse to buy any peice of equipment that is not all black - my Heusinkveld Sequential Shifter is the only exception (I need to spray paint it black one day).

At least these clones come with authentic Mavin loadcells and authentic German FibroFlex / FibroElast elastomers. All the others (SimJack, Rui, etc., etc.) don't, nor are they 1:1 designs of the HEs like these are. These are, by far, the "true" HE clones. However, they're usually priced at $420-$500 unlike those other lower-end ones which are $175-$275. These have recently gone down to $350-$450 and, directly from the maker (DT), is only $335 - silver or black - ($265 for the 2 pedal version) so I had to re-order them and try them one more time.

On top of that, this pedal set actually made me give Heusinkveld more business because I purchased the HE Ultimate upgrade kit. The HE electronics / control board doesn't work (I already tried). In fact, I probably won't use the elastomers either (haven't tried yet) as I've always highly preferred springs and have purchased the Manon (MRP Ltd.) HE Ultimate+ Spring Upgrade Kit. So, all that money to HE for just a rod and some bearings/sleeves basically

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Is that these pedals, can't believe the price.

 

[Spinelli]

Is that these pedals, can't believe the price.

Yes. You can find them on eBay and AliExpress. There's like 10 or 15 different sellers. You have to check all the sellers because they all have different prices. On eBay, you have to type "Speed Game" and then something like "throttle" or else you won't find them if you just type in something like sim racing pedals. It's stupid. You'll usually see many more from other sellers on both sites when you scroll down the page and view the "similar items".

The ones you linked to at $450 ($400 + shipping) are actually more expensive. That's the price from when I first purchased them 6 months ago. Now, you should be able to find them for $330-$400 (total, with shipping). Look for SIMDT Store. Not only does he have them for the cheapest ($333 including shipping) but he's the maker of them so you can talk to him with all sorts of questions that the other sellers will have no idea about (I tried).

Some sellers charge more for the green elastomers over the white, some don't. Some sellers charge more for the black colour over the silver, some don't.

Also, you can do every thing with these pedals in terms of software tuning that you can do with high-end pedals (eg. He SmartControl). For example, increasing the loadcell max-force, creating custom pedal curves (very important for me with brakes, especially when I use elastomers), saving custom pedal-curve presets, etc. This can all be done with a program called FreeJoy.

I discovered this on my own after many days and hours trying all sorts of controller calibration programs - including some strange ones from the deep corners of the internet. I even downloaded the pedal programs from like 10 different pedal companies (Moza, He, VNM, and many more). LOL. I couldn't believe my eyes when FreeJoy worked!

I was the one telling all the youtubers reviewing SimJack pedals about FreeJoy. They all had no idea just how much potential they were missing out on and thought they could only do the basic calibration like DiView / DXTweak2.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

The ones you linked to at $450 ($400 + shipping) are actually more expensive.

Weird, somehow I see them at $55.03 not $450 at that link

LOL, never mind, that was the price for elastomers set.

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

Wow, don't think I've ever come across accel/clutch pedals using load cells, that's pretty strange.

All Heusinkveld pedals (and the countless derivatives).

Though, they're used to measure position by using a little spring at the bottom of the pedal arm, that pushes on the 1KG loadcell. This linearly increases force on the loadcell the further you press the pedal arm.

 

[Neilski]

All Heusinkveld pedals (and the countless derivatives).

Though, they're used to measure position by using a little spring at the bottom of the pedal arm, that pushes on the 1KG loadcell. This linearly increases force on the loadcell the further you press the pedal arm.

Ahh...
I'm a little surprised that a load cell is considered a better position sensor than say a Hall sensor. Do you know the reasoning behind this?

 

[stigs2cousin]

I know it´s never that easy, but here´s a thought:

just imagine that at the beginning of this journey you had coughed up the money for "the real deal" aka Heusinkveld Sprints.
How many month of trouble free use and enjoyment would that have netted?

Not to mention that a honest tally of cost (aquisition, sending back, postage fees, driving to the post office, buying parts to fix the fakes) will add to similar if not higher costs than "going real".
If you value your time with only 1€/h you´re way negative.

To be honest, at the beginning of my Sim Racing I was in your shoes.
Not knowing if I would stay on it I kept it cheap and tinkered a lot.

When going online I learned quickly (as you also found out) that tinkered kit is not reliable.
In the three years I´ve had my HSVs I had two problems, one was clearly user error and the other a faulty pcb. Both were solved free of charge within 24h.

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

Ahh...
I'm a little surprised that a load cell is considered a better position sensor than say a Hall sensor. Do you know the reasoning behind this?

Not necessarily better. Just keep in mind that Heusinkveld was originally a DIY project, with the first versions going back to 2007. Loadcells are quite simple.

Future Heusinkveld pedals might use Hall effect sensors, high quality (linear) potentiometers or we might stick with loadcells because we know they work well and are reliable. They all have their merits and downsides.

 

[Neilski]

Not necessarily better. Just keep in mind that Heusinkveld was originally a DIY project, with the first versions going back to 2007. Loadcells are quite simple.

Fair enough
I just learned the hard way that a simple op-amp doesn't do a great job on a load cell, so they are rather more fussy than those integrated Hall sensor ICs that cost a couple of quid apiece and give low-noise contact-free measurements. (I have @GeekyDeaks to thank for pointing me toward the latter.)

 

[Spinelli]

The new set of pedals are going to the full calibration values in the videos the seller sent me. He made videos while at the desktop and while in different games (LFS, AC, ACC). The throttle is always reporting the same maximum - the full 65,535 value - no matter the situation. He checked the clutch too.

I noticed that the new set, like my current Thrustmaster T-LCM, reports from 0 to 65,535. My old set also did 65,535 total but reported from -32,767 to 32,767. I know it's the same thing but is that a sign something was updated, or can that easily be changed in the underlying calibration program (eg. FreeJoy) with just some clicks/keystrokes?

BTW. This guy is fantastic. He has made quite a few videos for me. Always replies promptly. Always makes more videos if I ask of him. Is always understanding and respectful - never rude or cold or anything like that.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

BTW. This guy is fantastic. He has made quite a few videos for me. Always replies promptly. Always makes more videos if I ask of him. Is always understanding and respectful - never rude or cold or anything like that.

But his name is not Niels.