GTR2: Why are Modern Sims Still Not as Good?

Paul Jeffrey

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GTR2 - 2.jpg

GTR2 is 11 years old, features a series that no longer exists and was developed for technology less advanced than a modern smart phone. Unbelievably it's still one of the best sims available today.

What I want to know is why? Why in the last 10 + years have some of the many awesome features found in this now long forgotten game not made their way into something more modern? Ok granted many different games feature some of the bits in GTR2, but no single title has taken what was already an incredible base and expanded upon it with the aid of much advanced technology we now have at our disposal.

Driving School? Check
Fully animated pit workers? Check
Animated flag marshals? Check
Day - night transition? Check
Weather cycle? Check
Full official series licence, over two separate seasons? Check
...and the list goes on and on...

Simply put GTR2 was massively overdeveloped, period. SimBin Studios quite literally took every single aspect of the then premier GT racing series in the world and recreated it all into a compelling racing experience that still stands out as a top simulation even by the standards of today, 11 years after the game hit our shelves.

I just find it all incredibility bizarre. In very few industries outside of sim racing will you see a decline in product quality and content as the years progress like we have to put up with today. When GTR2 first shipped in September 2006 the game was a complete package, not splattered with ridiculous bugs that prevented anyone having a good time, not bombarded by wave after wave of disparate DLC content with little or no relevance to the main experience and not hanging on by the merest thread for dear life as another iteration of something that's been released by someone else already. It really was a golden time for sim racing fans, and those who witnessed it all first hand really did think this would be the beginning of something big in sim racing.

Fast forward to 2017 and sadly the progress expected post GTR2 has quite simply not materialised. The game, the official simulation of the FIA GT World Championship, was probably the very last fully feature complete racing simulation we have seen in our niche genre. We've had loads of new games since then, some of which have even been released by the same people responsible for GTR and GTR2, but none have even come close to matching the level of features and polish afforded fans back in 2006. It's down right strange.

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Take RaceRoom Racing Experience for example, developed as the next GT game from the people behind GTR and GTR2, when the title first hit public beta stage back in February 2013 what did we have? Basically a hotlapping simulation with limited content, no official series licence, no AI to race against and precisely zero multiplayer features. Added to the still missing animated flag marshals and a range of other GTR2 items that haven't made the move over with time, it's all rather a depressing scene in which to take in.

Ok I appreciate Sector3 have worked exceptionally hard at improving RaceRoom to get to a level where it is barely recognisable now to what it looked like on launch day, but still to even consider releasing a game that was basically stripped of everything that made GTR2 great is simply mind boggling.

And it's not just RaceRoom that are guilty of missing out some key features considered par for the course 11 years ago, everyone is doing it! You only have to look at one of the most popular sims on the market Assetto Corsa as a perfect example, they consider themselves to be perfectionists on a mission to produce the most true to life experience possible, and they even miss out the core basics like weather and day to night transition, never mind such "nice to have" features like a driving school, proper flag implementation and multiclass racing options. It's simply amazing to realise that these features quite simply only exist in a game that was designed and released over a decade ago. Unbelievable.

GTR2 still looks pretty good on top graphics settings, still feels very nice indeed with my trusty CSW V2 and still sounds like it belongs in the very top tier of audio experience. All that whilst replicating a seriously mega international championship in a exceptionally detailed simulation that really does pick out all the little features that makes driving on a virtual track feel like the real thing. With that said and the pretty compelling physics considering the age of the title added up with stuff that no other sim has all together in one package, this is why I still believe GTR2 is, without reservation, the very best simulation racing experience one can purchase during 2017.

I love the game, it's just a bit sad that no one has thought to try and make something similar in the following 132 months since it was released.

GTR was released by SimBin Studios exclusively for PC. The game is still available to purchase on Steam for £4.99.

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Like GTR2? Well lucky you, we are seriously considering a brand new informal league! Check out the GTR2 sub forum for general GTR2 discussion or our new GTR2 RDGT Championship forum for more details of the new league season. To prepare for the league all we ask is you have Premium membership, a fresh GTR2 install and these two additional patches HERE and HERE. Get ready for a return of the legend....

Do you still enjoy GTR2? What did the sim do right in your opinion? Why do features present in GTR2 still not appear in moderns sims? Let us know in the comments section below!
 
See, GSC kind of proves that getting specific series doesn't equal to being successful. They had to add loads of more popular racing series (non licensed most of them) later on to keep the business alive.

GTR2 was very successful according to some because it was a complete product and blabla. Then some years later AC is equally successful, if not more, without many of those features. But guess what, both had 2 things in common: decent driving experience, and Ferraris/Porsches/similars.

Get those things together and chances of being successful are huge. But of course, the 2nd point is expensive (let alone fully licensed series...).
i think (car/manufacturer) licenses + excellent core driving experience can make a great product, but idk how much of that is personal bias. even if its a solid recipe, that doesn't mean there aren't other avenues for success in the sim genre. its also become the norm; in fact, outside of F1 & rally i can't think of any exceptions, & even these only border the periphery of full-fledged race sims. narrowing the scope so that licensing costs are kept down/fixed, track & car modeling + physics work can be intensely focused, while UI - graphics engine - feature-set can be greatly enhanced (a 'complete product' with a singular focus) seems like a really obvious alternative to the 'universal sim' approach the presently established powers have taken.

[also wish ISI had just focused on historics content & left the rest to modders; the tire model fits the period perfectly & hybrid simulation is missing anyway]
 
I spent a lot of time in GTR2. All time great sim. Been years since I played it and I am curious how it stacks up in FF and physics dept today. The Power and Glory Mod is fantastic. If I play the game again I would spend most of my time using P&G 3. :)
Ditto here - most of my GTR2 time is actually P&G time. :)

I do fire up the base game too, though. Sometimes just to chase after the handful of gold gears that have always eluded me!
 
Not nearly as saddened as I am with your response to my remarks. If I'd known that before I posted I would've saved you the hurt feelings. I will defend my comments, but save you the book and just say that perhaps it was bad taste on my part.

Thanks man, appreciate the words... all is forgiven :D:)

Just to be sure (for everyone's sake, not in reference to your original post). We (RD) and me personally are independent, not on anyone's payroll or under obligation in any way shape or form to cover anything. That's what's great about us here, we have tota; and utter freedom to do whatever we want, whenever we want :)

Personally the idea of showing favouritism or bias in any way to anyone is totally against what I stand for. I must admit I do tend to steer more towards the positives in life than the negatives, but that's just my nature. In the same token I'm not afraid to say when something is s*it!!! :D I hope the work I've done here in the past, and will continue to do in the future, makes people believe I report credible and trustworthy content. That is my only goal :cool:
 
Frankly, now a days I feel that we are too used to having everything we want and then some, which is why now we have all this (frankly) crap logic perhaps best exhibited over in iRacing (though this is absolutely the case in all corners) - where an IndyCar isn't a proper stepping stone to F1, so we totally gotta have a GP2 or FR3.5, even though there is already something that fills that gap even if it isn't totally perfect to some contrived car list in our heads.
It's the same logic you apply to rF2 content, while there is already plenty to fill in the gaps.

A long while ago I made a post in the ISI forums that rF2 should really just ditch the whole one of everything approach, focus on what they do best and have the best opportunity to create product differentiation - historics - and Tim responded with something to the effect of "we'll... we'd like to, we really would.... but we can't because umm, reasons."
also wish ISI had just focused on historics content & left the rest to modders;
That would go against the core values of what rFactor stands for. An universal simracing platform, and would result in an even lower userbase, since me and many others don't fancy driving the same glorified bathtubs with wheels all year long. Papy's GPL for example was great because of its sim technology. It would have been better with a later era of F1, or IndyCar 3.
the tire model fits the period perfectly & hybrid simulation is missing anyway]
The tire model is universal and fits all periods, and proper gearbox modeling for those historical cars is currently missing anyway either. That said, hybrid simulation is simple to add and is in the works.

Alternative wording : most racing series don't race at night. The vast majority of races take place in dry conditions. Most series don't even include pit stops in the grand scheme of things. Many sim races - in fact the vast majority of them overall - don't use any of those either, even if those features are available. Yet how much time did we spend throwing shoes at Stefano over AC v1.0? lol
Most race series worth watching have pit-stops and rain as an essential ingredient. Many people use those all the time in Crammond GP3 and GP4.

Who would buy a copy of GTR2 made in the image of a new game from a different studio. But copy the physics, graphics, sounds, content list, features, menu options. What would you think? Someone trying to sell an old game not up to today's standards.
GTR2 was made by a team bigger than other sim teams, except pcars and iracing. Which means they needed bigger investment than other sim studios, except pcars and iracing.
Now fast forward to present times (2012-2016), to make a game as good and complete as GTR2 but up to today's standards you'd need an even bigger investment than the team made in 2005 with GTR2.
My conclusion of this debate is that many think any studio can easily come up with fully licensed racing series and complete sim games that suit those racing series, in today's internet and video game industry, but many of them don't really put themselves in the body of a company owner who has to call the shots and make the investment to fulfill this "dream of sim racers for the best and most complete sim racing game". But this "best and most complete sim racing game" will get boring after three months for the casual players and the rest of the active playing base will remain reduced to no much better than the current reality.
In my opinion sim racers are focusing too much on the wrong aspects of game features in a sim racing game. "The best and most complete sim game", "full dynamic day night weather", "full racing series + its features". Basically sim racers want to satisfy their niche desires, no matter how much it will cost the studio to produce and maintain all this, and how many players will continuously use all this. And then sim racers say, "we don't want a game every year and we don't want a dlc every four months".
But sim racers forget that the best examples of modern most popular games (outside racing games genre) are based on adequate graphics, adequate features, with great gameplay yet approachable and high skill ceiling at the same time, great multiplayer yet simple structure that makes many players just connect and get queued for a match of similar skill, and adequate broadcasting+esports (LAN tournaments) features.
I read some say in this thread that if you vote with your wallet in mediocre games you get exactly that. But the biggest problem actually comes from what sim racers want, and they often want the wrong things that won't make the game nor its playing base grow. If you keep thinking on "great games" from the last two decades, that's what you'll get.
The lack of a big development team (at least 60+ devs) and licensing costs (6 figures at least) are a few good reason for not having the content and needless circus stuff like driving school, career modes and cut-scenes (keep this annoying circus out of sims if you want simracing to evolve properly and be taken seriously) and what not, except it's not an excuse for missing and/or broken core essential Simulation Value features, which is normally implemented by 1 or 2 core programmers.
 
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Also, why is my rating ability taken away again? Did you guys also take away the rating abilities of the people who haha'd or rated me sad too? Or is it because I rated the article Haha, is that not allowed?

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It's the same logic you apply to rF2 content, while there is already plenty to fill in the gaps.

That would go against the core values of what rFactor stands for. An universal simracing platform, and would result in an even lower userbase, since me and many others don't fancy driving the same glorified bathtubs with wheels all year long. Papy's GPL for example was great because of its sim technology. It would have been better with a later era of F1, or IndyCar 3.

No, it isn't the same logic. My issue with rF2 content isn't what they have chosen to fill the holes with, it's that they have largely failed in delivering enough of any one particular thing to make something of it, as well as several cars, particularly the early cars, just flat out not being entirely up to snuff. (go ahead, rage on about thermonuclear tires)

If my complaints about rF2 were "they got the wrong car" why haven't I been complaining about a totally irrelevant GT3 Camaro and one of the equally as irrelevant dead end, the-ship-has-sailed late era FIA GT GT1 Nissans?

Yes, it would go against what was the core idea behind the rFactor series... a series which is two games, one of which has been dead since about a month after arrival perpetually waiting for something to kick it in the backside. Defining your game better does not mean you must throw out mod-ability.

Let me put it this way : You've seemingly made it your personal mission to extol all the virtues of rF2. Why is it despite the features and how good it can be does no one seem to care? Where did it all go wrong? If features and sim credentials are all that matters, why isn't rF2 killing the market? You read through this thread and a lot of people seem to indicate what made GTR2 are the things that only rF2 does now, so what happened?

Lack of identity, that is what happened.

Yes, if GPL were to be ICR3 it would have been excellent because Papyrus were on their game - but the reason it has had it's success is it's unique identity. If an ICR3 were released in place of GPL it would have been replaced by the EA F1 games rather than living on as strong as it has. It wouldn't have been different enough to hold off father time as long as it has.

No one talks about NR2002 because NR2003 came out after it. Had the EA NASCAR sim games on PC actually been good NR03 wouldn't have had the life it has. Flip side, only a few talk about the Crammond GP games still today, because the rFactor mods and the F1 games have largely squashed it's face in even though Crammond was a genius well ahead of the curve.
 
The lack of a big development team (at least 60+ devs) and licensing costs (6 figures at least) are a few good reason for not having the content and needless circus stuff like driving school, career modes and cut-scenes (keep this annoying circus out of sims if you want simracing to evolve and be taken seriously) and what not, except it's not an excuse for missing and/or broken core essential Simulation Value features, which is normally implemented by 1 or 2 core programmers.
The first part of your post, about the lack of a big development team (coupled with big modeling team) is one of the reasons for modern sim racing games to be under developed, except pcars and iracing.
But about the second part of your post you got it wrong from what I said previously. I never mentioned that we need driving schools, career modes, cut-scenes to make a sim racing game popular, go read again my post please. Now that you talk about it, driving school and career mode are good instruments to instruct new players about car driving and setups, and an evolving career mode is there to give you things to do offline besides solo driving, but is just an optional game mode for a traditional gaming audience compared to traditional sim racing audience.

Associat0r, none of what you suggested so far in this thread, which circled mainly about rf2, will help sims and simracing grow. Because like you and some others who are pretty vocal, only demand old things from the new devs. You want new sims to be developed in the image of old sims. But that's what you'll get, low sales and playing numbers simply because the audience of yesterday is different than the audience of today and tomorrow. Not just the audience, the world of internet and gaming was very different one and two decades ago.

I don't know the way of the future for sim racing, but it may pass in the same direction as other very popular games outside racing genre. With the addition that those very popular games, which are mainly online multiplayer, competition, and LAN esports based, racing games still have a strong single player component around AI racing and around cars. Making these two structure parts complex to create yet simple for the player to use (not talking about the gameplay side of things) is what can grow sims.

Single player game modes around AI racing (but not robot like AI and AI with progressive character and experience).
Online multiplayer game with players just connecting and getting matched against similarly skilled. Examples of this are simple yet complex to create, csgo and rocket league, I think dota2 also follows similar plan. And for the love of what's holy, use the Steam profile for the user's profile in game.
 
Please no... I can't stand racing online against stupid user name like for example mine, kamackeris. Real names always
Real names, where you're gonna get the real names from? Gaming is around gaming nicknames. Buying a product on Steam I think doesn't give your payment information to the company of that game, since you buy the game with steam funds without giving directly your CC's information to that company, and you can obtain steam funds without using a CC, there are more payment options.

Steam profile name already acts like a real name, people are less likely to change it because of friends on steam, and even when you change it, it holds your previous alias.

Third reason, not everyone races with names over cars or apps on screen.

Fourth reason is that you can add people you raced against or invite your steam friends. So is one ID with one username between Steam and between who connects to the game's multiplayer race.
 
The lack of a big development team (at least 60+ devs).

While your basic point that the development team was big by the standards of most of today's development teams is correct, a figure of 40 would be more accurate. If you just count the names in the GTR2 credits list this is inflated for several reasons :

1) the subcontracting of development to Blimey! by Simbin means Simbin staff are credited when really their role was essentially middlemen who were primarily working on RACE, or in some cases their GTR work was re-used but they were not actively working on GTR2.
2) many staff are credited more than once.
3) some staff (including me) were employed on a part time basis.

It will be interesting to see how many people are needed to create GTR3.
 
What made the likes of GPL, GP4, GTR2 etc special was their simplicity, compared to the likes of AC, rF2 and to a lesser degree AMS.
AC and the like are so cluttered, that I get tired of deciding what to do...AC eventually ended up for me as Hotlap program and then uninstalled.
It was so satisfying when you used to put in the disc and play the complete sim' and not expect more...you had got what you paid for and were happy with it.
The formats of todays sim's have lost the plot; FFB, Physics, Tyre models, are of course superior today and are much appreciated...it's the format that has got lost, in the mad scramble for more, more, more.
 
Kind of off-topic but I'm guessing you haven't heard of G2A's shady business? Support Simbin and buy it off a legitimate retailer. Especially since the money would go towards the sim racing we all know and love, rather than going into a thief's pocket.
G2A themselves aren't shady, problem lays in some of the re-sellers.
The honest sellers usually buy loads of copies at Steam sales, Humble bundles etc. and resell them with a small fee added, which I think is fair enough.
To be fair, I do buy most of my games trough Steam even if I don't like how they run fixed prices
 
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Kind of off-topic but I'm guessing you haven't heard of G2A's shady business? Support Simbin and buy it off a legitimate retailer. Especially since the money would go towards the sim racing we all know and love, rather than going into a thief's pocket.
No I hadn't heard anything about this, I've bought 3 games off them and had no problems, and as far as I can see they are legitimate. However their business practices seem to be morally dubious and like yourself I would not like to see devs deprived of earned income, of course I would also like to see devs turn out fully functioning games as well.
 
I'd say selling humble bundles for profit IS shady though. The fact that G2A sells insurance that the key you buy even works shows how shady it is.
Well, Steam is shady too, but we are completely of topic now :D

Found a mod that adds more of the FFB settings to the game menu and ended up with this for my CSW v.2:

Steam\SteamApps\common\GTR 2 - FIA GT Racing Game\UserData\yourname\yourname.PLR
Code:
FFB Device Type="1" // Type of FFB controller: 0=none 1=wheel, 2=stick/custom, 3=rumble pad.
FFB Effects Level="4" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low, 2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom.
FFB Gain="0.55000" // Strength of Force Feedback effects.  Range 0.0 to 1.0.
FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
FFB steer vibe freq mult="0.50000" // Controls frequency of steering vibration. Recommended: 0.5 to 1.0, 0.0 disables steering vibration.
FFB steer vibe zero magnitude="0.03000" // Magnitude of steering vibration at 0mph (reference point).
FFB steer vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB steer vibe zero magnitude).
FFB steer vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB steer force average weight="0.38000" // How much weight is given to new steering force calculations each frame (0.01 - 1.0). Lower values will smooth out the steering force, but will also add latency.
FFB steer force exponent="0.75000" // Steering force output "sensitivity".  Range 0.0 to infinity.  0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 = lower sensitivity.
FFB steer force input max="-11500.00000" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if controller pulls in the wrong direction).
FFB steer force output max="1.32000" // Maximum force output of steering force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0
FFB steer force grip weight="0.28000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9.  How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force.
FFB steer force grip factor="0.40000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6.  How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight.
FFB steer update thresh="0.00000" // Amount of change required to update steer force/vibe (0.0 - 1.0). Lower values = steering force updated more frequently = lower frame rate.
FFB steer friction coefficient="-0.10000" // Coefficient to use for steering friction.  Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer friction saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering friction.  Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB steer damper coefficient="0.20000" // Coefficient to use for steering damper.  Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer damper saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering damper.  Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB throttle vibe freq mult="0.05000" // Scales actual engine frequency to force FFB vibration frequency.  Suggested range: 0.10 to 0.50
FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.01000" // Magnitude of engine vibration at 0rpm (reference point).
FFB throttle vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude).
FFB throttle vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB throttle vibe update thresh="0.02000" // Amount of change required to update throttle vibe (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB brake vibe freq mult="0.50000" // Scales actual brake rotational frequency to force feedback vibration frequency.
FFB brake vibe zero magnitude="0.00000" // Magnitude of brake vibration at 0mph (reference point).
FFB brake vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB brake vibe zero magnitude).
FFB brake vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB brake vibe update thresh="0.02000" // Amount of change required to update brake vibe (0.0 to 1.0)
FFB rumble strip magnitude="0.35000" // How strong the rumble strip rumble is.  Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
FFB rumble strip freq mult="0.50000" // Rumble stip frequency multiplier 1.0 = one rumble per wheel rev.
FFB rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB rumble strip pull factor="-0.75497" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
FFB rumble strip update thresh="0.05000" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB jolt magnitude="1.00000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are.  Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.

Wheel settings:
SEn: AUt
FF: 100
SHo: OFF
AbS: OFF
LIn: OFF
dEA: OFF
drI: OFF
For: 100
SPr: OFF
dPr: OFF
 
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Please no... I can't stand racing online against stupid user name like for example mine, kamackeris. Real names always

With you 100%
Using real names makes you think about your actions on track, hiding behind a nick name is a joke.
I even get peeved if i see it on our Tspeak on club nights never mind open servers,

So a plea to all drivers at RD, be proud of your real name and use it whilst in the RD servers and on Tspeak,
I will be sending out reminders to guys who don't do this.
Full names please... Drop me a pm if you see this happening at RD, remember its one rule for all..

thanks Rupe.
 
With you 100%
Using real names makes you think about your actions on track, hiding behind a nick name is a joke.
I even get peeved if i see it on our Tspeak on club nights never mind open servers,

So a plea to all drivers at RD, be proud of your real name and use it whilst in the RD servers and on Tspeak,
I will be sending out reminders to guys who don't do this.
Full names please... Drop me a pm if you see this happening at RD, remember its one rule for all..

thanks Rupe.

Eh, I disagree, real names do not make you think about the actions on track, here on RD we're a pretty small community at least for the club races etc. that names or nicks would make no difference, a race or two in and people still recognize you. The accountability is still there. In larger communities like iRacing there are other systems in place to try to guarantee the quality of the racing and even those don't always work. Heck in iRacing I'd say the only thing the real names have led too is some rather blatant racism against latinos or "Three namers", not that some of them don't deserve their rep as aggressive drivers, and amusing scenarios where Youtubers/Streamers will block out their own name but have no problem with broadcasting all the other drivers names. Even when they mask their own names like the guys we have here at RD it's not uncommon to find yourself uploaded to youtube without anyone ever asking if it's ok.

Looking at larger communities still, the big e-sports games people all use nicks and even then people can clearly distinguish between the competitors and will equally often prove themselves to be just as toxic when they're using their real personas.

Now it's a rule of RD so it's fine and all, but besides appeasing a few pet peeves I don't think it serves any purpose.
 

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