rF2 F3.5 2014 @ Sebring - Mon 18th Aug

[Frederic Schornstein]

Well everything went as predicted. Welcome to real live racing.

Multi car incident ==> full course yellow. BTW: not just a wing. A single car crash would be a local yellow.

And i think some people were lucky to not have a S/G immediately. Because the yellow flag was out and they were still racing and overtaking. The server needed to calculate everybody's position upon the incident. So it needed a couple of laps to get everything back in order. It flipped a bit at some points to get everything back in to order.

So my opinion: it wasn't a server or rF2 bug or whatever, but a people bug...

And about the contact penalty's. Don't make contact. and some "paint swapping" is allowed.

Just as Freddy wrote: Some where a bit surprised by the sudden spawning on the grid. It's the only "bug" a found at the moment. Reconnaissance time was to short. 60 sec + 1m30sec was just to short. It"s not often used. But I think it's a nice alternative to a formation lap. And going to the grid in real life can be a bit hectic too.

I loved qually time in split groups. The only thing missing, was a list where you ended up. But it isn't an issue for me.

I got from the back to P6 and i spinned out 3 times so it could be better.

I think a reconnaissance lap with the following formation lap would be great. That would be exactly like in real llife and would avoid the confusion. You could use the recon lap to get a bit temps in the brakes and maybe do some burnouts and do a practice start on the formation lap.

 

[Oscar Hardwick]

In other news.

 

[Nicolas Delamare]

For me:
-the split qualifying in two groups: I like !
-the time limit to get out of the pits and go on the grid: Why not...but more time will be better !
-the complete flag rules: I don't like ! Black is enough.
-the sudden appearence on the grid: I don't like, a formation lap is better (because everyone is able to accelerate/brake when they want,etc...)

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

This is a test event to test some new features. So thanks for joining.
We can test things with AI. But getting real results and feedback, we need test events.

If i set the same rules in the past F3.5 club events there would not be a safety-car at all.
It will be a rarity that the safety-car will be triggered: A contact with 2 cars with a spin would still not trigger the safety-car. Everybody who looked at the replay will agreed that the safety car is justified.

I don't blame the guys involved: My opinion the short recon time was the culprit that surprised some people and causing the incident. The safety-car was in my opinion in this case justified.

I hoped for a league you like to simulate all real life situations/rules as much as possible. From driving to the starting grid to finishing the race with all possible situations.

Things to adjust:
- Recon time needs to be adjusted: a bit longer. (depending on track too)
- add a formation lap. (Just pump up the adrenaline a bit more. )
- for the fainthearted: Leave out the safety-car.
- only yellow flags, so you know there is some trouble ahead and don't do stupid things .


Just need to know your opinions on the "Unsportsmanlike sensitivity" ?
= If you hit someone in the rear you'll get a warning. if you hit someone to much you'll get a Stop/Go.
If you knock someone of track you'll get a Stop/Go immediate.

 

[Nicolas Delamare]

"Just need to know your opinions on the "Unsportsmanlike sensitivity" ?
= If you hit someone in the rear you'll get a warning. if you hit someone to much you'll get a Stop/Go.
If you knock someone of track you'll get a Stop/Go immediate."

I think it's a bad setting, like we say "touching is racing" ! Seriously, I won"t be penalized for a contact with an other opponent because i struggled on the acceleration and touched him !
Please ! Remove it next time !

 

[Enrico Barducco]

This is my short video of the highlights...

My opinion for the unsportmanlike sensitivity: in the open wheel more fairy more funny!! So..... but i don't test it, i don't touched anyone, this time....

 

[David O'Reilly]

Thanks for the race.
In my view one of the issues with the recon lap was trying to get in order. I did not get my quali lap in so was P18. So I figured I needed to drop towards the back or face a parking issue when I got around. This made me too late so I was "spawned" on cold tyres. No real problem, I got away ok but there was carnage in front of me and I nearly avoided it but not quite.
If we add a formation lap then for me thats fine.
Yes the SC was a bore for 4 laps but does it serve us a purpose? IE did it allow badly damaged cars to be repaired and rejoin? I dont know.

Sportmanlike conduct settings? @Gijs van Elderen
In my view the "rubbing is racing" view is a Nascar mentality and in open wheelers contact is studiously avoided as it will almost always result in damage.
We should not be running an Open Wheeler league where drivers think contact is acceptable. The best open wheel drivers position their car to make passing difficult, if the option then exists to just tap them out of the way then this is gone. Tapping ppl from behind is not acceptable. Front wings are normally more fragile than gearboxes so maybe we need to ensure damage settings are high enough?

edit:
Just curious @Oscar Hardwick as the post mentions a few things which bit do you disagree with?

 

[Oscar Hardwick]

Just my opinion with the contact rules. A computer will never get it right, there will always be circumstances where people get hit through no fault of their own and then get a penalty for it. Have contact rules sure but they NEED to be governed by a protest system and admins. If admins do not want to do that then simply do not run a league.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

Thanks for the race.
In my view one of the issues with the recon lap was trying to get in order. I did not get my quali lap in so was P18. So I figured I needed to drop towards the back or face a parking issue when I got around. This made me too late so I was "spawned" on cold tyres. No real problem, I got away ok but there was carnage in front of me and I nearly avoided it but not quite.
If we add a formation lap then for me thats fine.
Yes the SC was a bore for 4 laps but does it serve us a purpose? IE did it allow badly damaged cars to be repaired and rejoin? I dont know.

Sportmanlike conduct settings? @Gijs van Elderen
In my view the "rubbing is racing" view is a Nascar mentality and in open wheelers contact is studiously avoided as it will almost always result in damage.
We should not be running an Open Wheeler league where drivers think contact is acceptable. The best open wheel drivers position their car to make passing difficult, if the option then exists to just tap them out of the way then this is gone. Tapping ppl from behind is not acceptable. Front wings are normally more fragile than gearboxes so maybe we need to ensure damage settings are high enough?

I have to say as well, that we shouldn't use the rFactor2 unsportsmanlike driving. I have got the warning a few times in SP or so when I got punted off with no fault of my own, if that would result in a penalty it would be really ...

I think the way we handled it last season was the best, if you had a problem report it or write a PM to the driver you had contact with. As far as I know we had 0 protests last season, so the unsportsmanlike driving would be pointless and maybe ruin someones race as the system doesnt work that well.
It depends a lot on the drivers. In the last two FR35 club races I had very close racing with a few drivers and maybe we had just a bit of touch here and there, but you can do that with quality drivers. Therefore I think we dont need that. We for sure would need a stewart watching the race and removing unjustified penalties.
A high damage multiplier will take car of it, if you rear end someone to hard you will need a new Front Wing, which equals a Stop/Go penalty.

I think recon lap + formation lap is great and close to the real thing. I am not sure about the SC. It is great when you get caught up in an incident, that you can repair your car (wings only) and rejoin at the back of the pack, but with a 45min/30min format the race will be very short. The race yesterday was 20min of racing tops.
On the oval side it is great, because it adds an extra lap for every caution lap, but that wont be possible in this car, because you would run out of fuel.

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

Just my opinion with the contact rules. A computer will never get it right, there will always be circumstances where people get hit through no fault of their own and then get a penalty for it. Have contact rules sure but they NEED to be governed by a protest system and admins. If admins do not want to do that then simply do not run a league.

I was looking for those cases in the race. But nobody reported a problem with it (yet).
I believe there were some S/G penalties yesterday. And i want to know if they were unjustified.

You and Freddy don't have to worry about those things. You guys driver clean enough to avoid trouble.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

I was looking for those cases in the race. But nobody reported a problem with it (yet).
I believe there were some S/G penalties yesterday. And i want to know if they were unjustified.

You and Freddy don't have to worry about those things. You guys driver clean enough to avoid trouble.

Yes, I know, but I had situations in the past where I was the victim, but still got the unsportsmanlike warning. E.g. I am on the inside to the hairpin showing my nose and somebody rear ends me and I push the guy ahead off track. In that situation I would be innocent, but I am pretty sure rF2 will give me a penalty and I will loose my front wing. With that situation my race would be over immediately as I will loose at least 1 min in pitlane.

I just dont see the benefit of the system. I am really happy, that we dont have the annoying auto penalties like in other games or slow down penalties like in AC, because they usually make it worse.
If you can show me some examples where it would make sense, than I might agree, but I have a good example for my point of view.

Look at around 50 seconds a car is blocking the road completely in a blind spot and I T-Bone him hard. I do strongly believe I would have received a penalty for it, but in the end with a normal incident report the other guy got a penalty. Looking at all the auto generated penalties and stuff during the race will be just more work for the organizers.

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

IMO: Ignoring a yellow flag. I don't know if there were yellow flags set and the yellow flags were good on track. If there was a yellow flag 2 corners ahead: IMO, you should have a penalty too.
Of course U-turning in the middle off the track isn't a bright idea.

But I think you worry to much. If the quality of driving was like the past club races, there is nothing to worry about.

 

[Calum McLure]

I think I must have missed the yellow flags and notification thing last night which led to the confusion, I had been caught out with the start being so fast and then I was sandwiched between 2 cars going into T1 so was too busy concentrating on that. I need an engineer screaming "yellow flag, yellow flag, safety car!!!" in my ear

 

[David O'Reilly]

Seriously, I won"t be penalized for a contact with an other opponent because i struggled on the acceleration and touched him !
Please ! Remove it next time !

I'll take the opportunity to respond to this as these test races are also about setting our expectations of driving standards for this league.
Nicolas, not to pick on you and I may have misunderstood your point but, With respect if you hit someone from behind - struggle on accelleration or no struggle, if they are disadvantaged you will most likely get a penalty. Unless there is mitigating circumstance IE he braked way too early etc. If you get a passing opportunity as another driver has a bad corner exit then you need to pass clean.
If we dont use the unsportsmanlike setting it would be done manually via a stewards report

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

There won't be a safety-cars no more.
And the sudden start will be fixed too.

But IMO there will be a yellow flag: If you drive into a crashed car in the middle of the road... too bad for you.

But it will not happen. With the quality of driving i've seen in the past club races. There is nothing to worry about.

About what should have been incident reports in the league: I think these were handled nicely on track. The first one was a bit unfortunate...

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

IMO: Ignoring a yellow flag. I don't know if there were yellow flags set and the yellow flags were good on track. If there was a yellow flag 2 corners ahead: IMO, you should have a penalty too.
Of course U-turning in the middle off the track isn't a bright idea.

But I think you worry to much. If the quality of driving was like the past club races, there is nothing to worry about.

As far as I know there was no yellow flag and honestly yellow flags often dont work properly in rF2 and sometimes show up for no reason. Even if I had slowed down I wouldn't be able to avoid a car there. My point is, if we have clean racing there is no need for the automatic penalty. These systems are never faultless and someone will end up with an unjustified penalty.
In all racing games/sims people moan about the penalty system. Why the heck should we introduce it then? I can't see any advantage more work, more wrong penalties, more drivers getting annoyed.

 

[Steve Combey]

I missed this race but would like to join the proper series when it starts. When does it start?
I hope you do not have the game give automatic penalties too - it never works properly!

 

[Nicolas Delamare]

"There won't be a safety-cars no more.
And the sudden start will be fixed too. "

Mmmh, excellent decision !

"But IMO there will be a yellow flag: If you drive into a crashed car in the middle of the road... too bad for you."

Yellow flag because of an accident, a car accross the track ==> ok, of course !
But Full Course Yellow at the beginning for a basic contact with way enough time to go back on track ==> No !

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

Anyway, This event wasn't a great example of clean driving.
To many incidents. To many solo crashes... . I hope it will be better next time.

 

[David O'Reilly]

I missed this race but would like to join the proper series when it starts. When does it start?
I hope you do not have the game give automatic penalties too - it never works properly!

Steve,
Gijs is away for 10 days then we will set another test event and probably the signup at the same time.
So roughly
10-14 days time =signups and test event or two.
Then we will plan to start the season 2 weeks after that. so say middle to late next month or so for race 1.
Detailed info will be in the signup thread..