F1 again not to race in Bahrain?

[Markus Neumann]

That's foreign policy. Completely different kind of thing (also, I don't see how bunker-breaking bombs are relevant at all ). Calling the US a police state is just nuts.

Freedom House Index of the countries staging an F1 race, compiled just for you :

Monaco was not listed.

Take a look at where the US are ranked. Looks like we can have only 4 races in the future then

 

[Hampus Andersson]

That's foreign policy. Completely different kind of thing (also, I don't see how bunker-breaking bombs are relevant at all ). Calling the US a police state is just nuts.

Freedom House Index of the countries staging an F1 race, compiled just for you
Monaco was not listed.

Take a look at where the US are ranked. Looks like we can have only 4 races in the future then

And this matter how? Funny how you change the name from "big trouble in Bahrain" to "foreign policy" when it comes to the states...
fact is Bahrain is a fart in space compared to USA.

Having the words "full democracy & USA" and in the same sentence is pretty hilarious.

The US IS a police state. It is 100% a police state.

 

[Markus Neumann]

Funny how you change the name from "big trouble in Bahrain" to "foreign policy" when it comes to the states...

In the case of Bahrain it's domestic politics, because the state commits atrocities against its own citizens. In the case of the US, you mostly take issue with how they conduct their foreign policy.

The US IS a police state. It is 100% a police state.

That's your personal opinion. Backed up by nothing.

What I've given you is one of the two most well-regarded indices on this matter. If you want quantifiable evidence on whether a state is a police state, the freedom house index is what you look at.
I can't believe that this is so difficult to grasp for you. Your posts on all matters F1 are so good because you always have the facts. Yet, here you choose to ignore them and go with your personal opinion, even if it goes against scientific measurement

 

[Hampus Andersson]

In the case of Bahrain it's domestic politics, because the state commits atrocities against its own citizens. In the case of the US, you mostly take issue with how they conduct their foreign policy.

Not really.... you need to investigate the demonstrations like "occupy Wallstreet" etc.
Police are arresting whoever they want. With no grounds whatsoever.

That's your personal opinion. Backed up by nothing.

For a person who refuses to see the world as it is, yes.
For a person who actually can see what USA is doing, no.

What I've given you is one of the two most well-regarded indices on this matter. If you want quantifiable evidence on whether a state is a police state, the freedom house index is what you look at.
I can't believe that this is so difficult to grasp for you. Your posts on all matters F1 are so good because you always have the facts. Yet, here you choose to ignore them and go with your personal opinion, even if it goes against scientific measurement

It is a fact that the US is becoming a police state. Anyone who disagress either lives under a rock or is ignorant.
Ask the "occupy wallstreet" guys and see what they think.

They are non-violent yet they get out into jail. For no reason at all.

 

[Markus Neumann]

Not really.... you need to investigate the demonstrations like "occupy Wallstreet" etc.
Police are arresting whoever they want. With no grounds whatsoever.

You provided a whole list of issues you see with US foreign policy. And one point (Occupy Wall Street) on domestic politics.

Ask the "occupy wallstreet" guys and see what they think.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Occupy Wall Street is not the political center of the US. When the movement started, it was still pretty moderate, with many ordinary citizens participating (but still leaning heavily to the left of the political spectrum). Now, all that's left are a bunch of hippies in drum circles (no kidding, they really have fricking drum circles, way to not be taken seriously). And the opinions of the participants of Occupy Wall Street are extremely diverse, they are not at all comparable to the Tea Party with its more unified (and even nuttier) message. Most of them just want to reverse the current trend of an increasingly unequal income distribution. That has nothing to do with a police state. And I'm betting that if you'd take a survey among them, 90% would still spout the usual "America is the greatest country in the world" stuff.
Oh, and there's a difference between being arrested for disorderly conduct and being released on the next day; and being arrested, then subsequently tortured, held with no access to a lawyer for months and then either lose your job (best case) or be sentenced to life in prison.

For a person who refuses to see the world as it is, yes.
For a person who actually can see what USA is doing, no.

It is a fact that the US is becoming a police state. Anyone who disagress either lives under a rock or is ignorant.

Anecdotal evidence & personal insults vs. quantifiable evidence (which is the best kind of evidence). I can't believe I'm having this discussion with you :eek:

 

[Hampus Andersson]

You provided a whole list of issues you see with US foreign policy. And one point (Occupy Wall Street) on domestic politics.

Just a drop in the sea..

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Occupy Wall Street is not the political center of the US. When the movement started, it was still pretty moderate, with many ordinary citizens participating (but still leaning heavily to the left of the political spectrum). Now, all that's left are a bunch of hippies in drum circles (no kidding, they really have fricking drum circles, way to not be taken seriously). And the opinions of the participants of Occupy Wall Street are extremely diverse, they are not at all comparable to the Tea Party with its more unified (and even nuttier) message. Most of them just want to reverse the current trend of an increasingly unequal income distribution. That has nothing to do with a police state. And I'm betting that if you'd take a survey among them, 90% would still spout the usual "America is the greatest country in the world" stuff.
Oh, and there's a difference between being arrested for disorderly conduct and being released on the next day; and being arrested, then subsequently tortured, held with no access to a lawyer for months and then either lose your job (best case) or be sentenced to life in prison.

Does any of this wall of text justify semi-automatics and arrests for no reason?
nope..

Anecdotal evidence & personal insults vs. quantifiable evidence (which is the best kind of evidence). I can't believe I'm having this discussion with you :eek:

Time to wake up Markus.

 

[Markus Neumann]

Okay, this is pointless.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Yes it is.
Ignoring the problems USA are in and facing but acknowledging the problems in Bahrain as serious is hypocritical.

 

[Aidan Keranen]

what happened to the F1 talk again?

 

[Jax Humanhater]

http://tribune.com.pk/story/364266/bahrain-gp-given-green-light/

I will be so ****ing pissed if they go along with this. I would like to say the drivers should boycott the event to protest the lives of those in the country, but, if they were to do that, they would likely be in the mold of demonstrators. If they go along with this, the responsibility of lives of those lost in that weekend will be pinned on the FIA and FOM.

For once, can they, Bernie especially, not let money override their sense of reason!?

 

[Hampus Andersson]

read this article,

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98904

 

[Ivo Simons]

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

See there you have it

 

[Chris Jenkins]

Nice...

 

[Luka Kerin]

Obviously Lewis Hamilton fans, He has been on fire so far this year.

 

[Lenard Schaeffler]

I am sorry, I have to say it, now I may not be a big fan of our (the US) Gov attempting to control everything, especially the push against online privacy and rights, but the "occupy" movement is 1) far from being non violent 2) a bunch of stoned, out of work hippies making no demands other than "CHANGE THINGS AND GIVE US STUFF" I am young enough to where I have people I have grown up with that are part of the movement, and the deeper they go, the less I can associate with them. Its absolute insanity, I am all for freedom, all for equality, but I also believe in working for what you have, and maybe I am a bit blood thirsty but I do believe in survival of the fittest, "occupy" is an excuse for disenfranchised pot heads to sit around and cry that their life hasn't been handed to them, then violently backlash against police and cry foul the second force is used back at them, I have witnessed the riots in Oakland live on the news and first hand due to my support of a certain Anonymous organization, its like a little kid taunting their older brother then screaming "MOM HE HIT ME!" the second there is back lash. These people have a skewed vision of freedom, freedom is being self sufficient, not demanding they give you more

"A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...."​

Again, I am far from being 100% behind the current attempt to dominate every aspect of everyone in the worlds life, but please stop using occupy as an example, even those of us within the united states that sometimes don't agree with the gov think they are a joke

Sorry, wordy

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I am sorry, I have to say it, now I may not be a big fan of our (the US) Gov attempting to control everything, especially the push against online privacy and rights, but the "occupy" movement is 1) far from being non violent 2) a bunch of stoned, out of work hippies making no demands other than "CHANGE THINGS AND GIVE US STUFF" I am young enough to where I have people I have grown up with that are part of the movement, and the deeper they go, the less I can associate with them. Its absolute insanity, I am all for freedom, all for equality, but I also believe in working for what you have, and maybe I am a bit blood thirsty but I do believe in survival of the fittest, "occupy" is an excuse for disenfranchised pot heads to sit around and cry that their life hasn't been handed to them, then violently backlash against police and cry foul the second force is used back at them, I have witnessed the riots in Oakland live on the news and first hand due to my support of a certain Anonymous organization, its like a little kid taunting their older brother then screaming "MOM HE HIT ME!" the second there is back lash. These people have a skewed vision of freedom, freedom is being self sufficient, not demanding they give you more

"A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...."​

Again, I am far from being 100% behind the current attempt to dominate every aspect of everyone in the worlds life, but please stop using occupy as an example, even those of us within the united states that sometimes don't agree with the gov think they are a joke

Sorry, wordy

 

[Lenard Schaeffler]

I am forced to assume that based on the fox news tag that is an insult, but I have no idea who that is.

 

[Brandon Warren]

When you take a non-biased academic view of what has constituted police states in the past and look deeper into how the definition is constructed you will see that every country demonstrates elements of a police state from time to time. This is also the same for various types of policies, institutions, economic changes, etc. Point being, like with most things, it is measured in a dualistic sense. Meaning that there is one extreme (full police state) and the opposite extreme (non full police state).

In the case of the US... It has heavily leaned towards a police state from time to time, especially during times of war. In recent time, the US has made key movements leaning even more towards a police state. It isn't a full out police state yet (at least in comparison to the extreme examples) but it is slowly crawling that way. A police state doesn't necessarily have to be a totalitarian state.

However, focusing on the US and China is arguing beside the point. Even if the point is somehow successfully made regarding races in China , US, etc... it doesn't somehow dismiss the issue of Bahrain or dismiss an individuals concern for the race in Bahrain. The focus should be on the discussion of Bahrain's significance to the decision made by the F1 leadership and vice versa.

If Bahrain is determined to be an authoritative police state and is committing immoral sociopolitical acts towards a majority of it's population then one should question what sort of significance F1 having a race there has. Specifically what does having a race there do in relation to Bahrain's economical and sociopolitical situation? What significance does this hold for F1 itself by hosting a race there? Does holding a race in Bahrain currently have a larger impact on matters outside of sport than if F1 holds races in the US or China? I would argue yes, especially considering the size of the country and how this race is heavily linked with their ruling government and how the government is using it to bolster their position of power. If the leadership of F1 thinks for one second that it can distance itself from the consequences that may arise from holding a race there then they are living in a fantasy land.

Holding a race in the US or China doesn't influence their domestic politics nor have the potential to affect an overwhelming majority of the population. It also doesn't have the chance to vastly influence the state of F1. However, this is certainly the case with Bahrain.

 

[Brandon Warren]

Then we should not go to USA.

They have their right arm in Israel that is as we speak murdering scientists that are working in Iran to allow the country to build nuclear plants.
USA has invaded Iraq based on lies. They are now in Afghanistan despite nobody knowing what they are doing there.
Bin Laden is dead so why are you still up in the mountains?
They have a LONG history of conspiracy theories, some of them we know is actually true. (JFK did not die of a magic bullet) etc.
They are now a police state controlling the population with semi-automatics when there´s protests.
The poorer are getting poorer, the richer are getting richer.

But it´s "ok" apparently.

Why does European colonialism still maintain its ties? Why does Britain still have control of the Falklands? Why do larger countries continually exploit the underdeveloped south? Simply put, the answer is very complex

I agree that the US has invaded Iraq illegally and based on lies. It was primarily a unilateral decision that should not have happened. However, that was also the decision made by a previous administration. You can't erase the things you have done in life... one has to live with what has happened and make the best of a situation. There have been significant steps in terms of US foreign policy in 1) cooperating with other nations and 2) working to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US has pulled out of Iraq and is slowly churning out of Afghanistan (depending on who wins office). It is unfortunately a political game and these things take time to correct. While domestic politics have not been as ideal there has been significant progress made in some aspects of foreign policy. Changes won't take place overnight and it requires a citizenry to keep it's officials to their word.

I want to point out that it isn't just the US over in Afghanistan. NATO-ISAF are over there and it is composed of approximately 45 different countries.

- Every country has a long list of conspiracy theories and some have had them longer than the US has. Conspiracy theories are highly irrelevant to the point you are attempting to make.

They are now a police state controlling the population with semi-automatics when there´s protests.
- Not true. There has been approx 50 or so protests at our state funded university and not once has a gun even been pulled out of the holster. I guarantee you this is the case in an overwhelming majority of America. There have been significant events but this does not conclude that it is taking place everywhere in America and that there is nothing being done about it.

- "the poorer are getting poorer, the richer are getting richer"

............ We are responding to a catastrophic economic recession. There has been numerous debates, changes, and plans set forth in correcting this very issue. It will take quite some time but that doesn't mean nothing is being done to correct that.

I don't think a majority of the population thinks that these things are "ok"