After 1.3 sometimes missing down-shift ?

[Tobbe Bergman]

I've noticed since 1.3 that I often miss 3rd gear when trying to shift down from 4th with sequential ( Paddles or stick ) ?
The gear stays in 4th and I have to shift again to get down to 3rd.

No problems with this in Dirt Rally

Anyone else having this problem ?

 

[Rui Santos]

Downshift protection may be a realistic (it is) aid in real life cars, which doesn't mean it's not boring and stupid when we're talking about professional racing drivers. If a professional race driver can't even know exactly when to downshift to extend life of the engine/gearbox then Ayrton Senna and all those drivers from the past with manual gearboxes are GODS!

 

[ALB123]

Why you don't use the brake pedal to brake instead of downshifting to brake? What would happen to the cars without the downshift protection, the engine would get damaged? Maybe if kunos removes the protection, they need to raise engine damage for 'unrealistic downshifting at high speed/revs'?

The day that downshift protection got enabled, I remember being ticked off too. I thought it was too aggressive. Then I slowly tested to see what the redline speeds were for gears 2, 3 & 4 on certain cars and I would then go out and drive some laps aggressively. In watching the replays, and making a note at what my cars speed was when I was trying to engage 3rd or 2nd gear, it was shocking to notice how I was trying to downshift at speeds much too great. It was obviously a bad habit I had developed.

So, while it felt unrealistic...it was actually my driving that was unrealistic. Even with damage turned on, AC wasn't penalizing me enough for these horrendous downshifts in the name of "engine braking". I can't name every car that does or doesn't have a form of downshift protection in real life, but I think the way Assetto Corsa has implemented it is very good. It makes you use a little bit more of your brakes and I think that's actually more realistic. Just because you're used to being able to do something, in some cases for years of playing racing sims, doesn't mean that the new way isn't better. Yeah, it's going to feel unnatural and "wrong", but it's actually right.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Downshift protection may be a realistic (it is) aid in real life cars, which doesn't mean it's not boring and stupid when we're talking about professional racing drivers. If a professional race driver can't even know exactly when to downshift to extend life of the engine/gearbox then Ayrton Senna and all those drivers from the past with manual gearboxes are GODS!

My understanding is that one of the main reasons for DSP is because in paddle-shift cars it could be very easy to hit the downshift paddle unintentionally at the wrong time, or accidentally hit it twice, which could cause major damage to the engine. Hence, DSP. So, it's not so much about a professional race driver not knowing when it's safe to downshift, it's more to prevent downshifting due to accidental bumps of the flappy paddle.

The day that downshift protection got enabled, I remember being ticked off too. I thought it was too aggressive. Then I slowly tested to see what the redline speeds were for gears 2, 3 & 4 on certain cars and I would then go out and drive some laps aggressively. In watching the replays, and making a note at what my cars speed was when I was trying to engage 3rd or 2nd gear, it was shocking to notice how I was trying to downshift at speeds much too great. It was obviously a bad habit I had developed.

So, while it felt unrealistic...it was actually my driving that was unrealistic. Even with damage turned on, AC wasn't penalizing me enough for these horrendous downshifts in the name of "engine braking". I can't name every car that does or doesn't have a form of downshift protection in real life, but I think the way Assetto Corsa has implemented it is very good. It makes you use a little bit more of your brakes and I think that's actually more realistic. Just because you're used to being able to do something, in some cases for years of playing racing sims, doesn't mean that the new way isn't better. Yeah, it's going to feel unnatural and "wrong", but it's actually right.

Same here pretty much. I still think it might be a touch too aggressive, but it didn't take long for me to adapt my driving style and now I very rarely hit the DSP. One thing I wish they'd add, in R3E you here a little beep when you hit the DSP, doesn't sound like a big deal but it instantly lets you know what happened and you can quickly act accordingly. In AC it takes a half second to realize you didn't get your downshift and that half second can be the difference between staying on the tarmac and putting it in the sand. Other than that, I don't have any issues with it now.

 

[ALB123]

My understanding is that one of the main reasons for DSP is because in paddle-shift cars it could be very easy to hit the downshift paddle unintentionally at the wrong time, or accidentally hit it twice, which could cause major damage to the engine. Hence, DSP. So, it's not so much about a professional race driver not knowing when it's safe to downshift, it's more to prevent downshifting due to accidental bumps of the flappy paddle.

I don't know why DSP was invented, but if I were a team owner and I had to reach into my pocket to pay for blown engines, I would be thrilled to know that my engineers could easily implement something into the ECU's code that says "If Engine RPM > X do not allow downshift". I don't know how often paddles or even sticks on sequential transmission cars were accidentally tapped downshift before the implementation of DSP, I would imagine it wasn't very often in professional race cars, but again, even if it happened once a year and the solution was as easy as it is to prevent, why wouldn't you want it?? This isn't like the argument of ABS versus non-ABS or anything...

 

[Brandon Wright]

I don't know why DSP was invented, but if I were a team owner and I had to reach into my pocket to pay for blown engines, I would be thrilled to know that my engineers could easily implement something into the ECU's code that says "If Engine RPM > X do not allow downshift". I don't know how often paddles or even sticks on sequential transmission cars were accidentally tapped downshift before the implementation of DSP, I would imagine it wasn't very often in professional race cars, but again, even if it happened once a year and the solution was as easy as it is to prevent, why wouldn't you want it?? This isn't like the argument of ABS versus non-ABS or anything...

Probably not very often, but I know I've done it before. When you're holding your fingers mere millimeters away from the paddle while driving over bumpy surfaces it's not outside the realm of possibilities that it could accidentally happen, might as well prevent it if you can.

 

[Rui Santos]

Probably not very often, but I know I've done it before. When you're holding your fingers mere millimeters away from the paddle while driving over bumpy surfaces it's not outside the realm of possibilities that it could accidentally happen, might as well prevent it if you can.

Well, in that case i think they should've created something that would prevent you from shift two times in a, let's say, 1/3 second. As far as i know racing drivers take fingers away from paddles as soon as they engage a gear, and i bet that accidentally shifting don't happen very often...

 

[Joao Alves]

Well, in that case i think they should've created something that would prevent you from shift two times in a, let's say, 1/3 second.

That setting already exists, 'Gear Shift Debouncing' under the 'Shifters' tab, but it's not the same thing as the gearbox protection. Your suggestion of a time-based setting doesn't prevent people from smashing out one gear going into a high speed corner instead of properly slowing down.

 

[Rui Santos]

That setting already exists, 'Gear Shift Debouncing' under the 'Shifters' tab, but it's not the same thing as the gearbox protection. Your suggestion of a time-based setting doesn't prevent people from smashing out one gear going into a high speed corner instead of properly slowing down.

Well, i can tell you that since i'm in simracing it never happened to me ONCE... i believe the main purpose for that downshift protection is to save engine when gearing down, i doubt professional racing drivers do those stupid errors... well, professional racing (rich) drivers are not what they used to be anyway...

 

[Turk]

I think this is a big non-issue, When it came in I found myself limited by it but I just adjusted and it's not an issue at all now. It seems to be a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't for Kunos. People keep saying they want the most realistic sim but when they implement what would be a bog standard feature of sequential gearboxes people start complaining that it's not they're kind of real.

If it's in the real car it should be in the sim, and just like you adjust your driving style to the car you're sitting in you can just as easily adjust your driving style to the features of the gear box.

 

[Brandon Wright]

and i bet that accidentally shifting don't happen very often...

Probably not, but even if it happened once it could be a very expensive mistake. If you can insert a line of code the prevents it from happening, I'd guess that would be a no-brainer to the people having to pay the bills. I remember not long after it was introduced in AC I heard it being discussed during a race broadcast as one of the main reasons for DSP being on the cars, to prevent accidental engine-killing downshifts.

Also, some series mandate that engines have to last for a certain mileage or only so many engines are allowed during a season, DSP is one way to help prevent against premature engine deaths that could ruin your season. Also, as you eluded to, a lot of these series have "amateur" drivers mixed in with the pros so DSP keeps them from making a mistake and trashing the car.

Does this mean the drivers are less of a driving god than Senna? Depends on who you ask I guess, but IMO it's comparing apples to oranges (Senna did most of his driving before paddle shifters were a thing).

 

[Rui Santos]

Probably not, but even if it happened once it could be a very expensive mistake. If you can insert a line of code the prevents it from happening, I'd guess that would be a no-brainer to the people having to pay the bills. I remember not long after it was introduced in AC I heard it being discussed during a race broadcast as one of the main reasons for DSP being on the cars, to prevent accidental engine-killing downshifts.

Also, some series mandate that engines have to last for a certain mileage or only so many engines are allowed during a season, DSP is one way to help prevent against premature engine deaths that could ruin your season. Also, as you eluded to, a lot of these series have "amateur" drivers mixed in with the pros so DSP keeps them from making a mistake and trashing the car.

Does this mean the drivers are less of a driving god than Senna? Depends on who you ask I guess, but IMO it's comparing apples to oranges (Senna did most of his driving before paddle shifters were a thing).

Agree with you when you say that to save engines you have to implement those stupid "protections", the fault in general racing nowadays is precisely the RULES!

Anyway when i talk about Senna, or Prost, or Mansel, etçª is that EVEN with manual gearboxes they could make a engine work on its limits without those "protections", in short, when driver made the difference and racing was really enjoyable to watch

 

[Brandon Wright]

Agree with you when you say that to save engines you have to implement those stupid "protections", the fault in general racing nowadays is precisely the RULES!

Anyway when i talk about Senna, or Prost, or Mansel, etçª is that EVEN with manual gearboxes they could make a engine work on its limits without those "protections", in short, when driver made the difference and racing was really enjoyable to watch

I agree and I'm sure most drivers would prefer the rules and aids went away and driver ability made more of a different. Though generally I still find most racing really enjoyable to watch, but nothing like the gladiators of days gone by. That being said, I've only had to watch a small handful of my racing heros die at the wheel and I wouldn't change that for anything, so it's a bit of a trade-off.

 

[Radu Oros]

But DSP isn't an aid like TC which you can adjust. Is built into the car system. Is like the built in stuff from GT3 cars, like no need to blip the throttle on downshifts (electronic kicker) or release the throttle on upshifts (automatic engine cut off). They are there because you don't need to use a clutch any more for shifting. These last two aren't exactly assists/protections, just the way the car is built.
But rev limiter is a protection built in the car system. DSP is downshifts, Rev limiter is for upshifts (that's too simplified, but dsp and rev limiter are to prevent over revving when you're close to the max revs for a gear).
What if AC came with DSP from the start... maybe some people would talk but the discussion would end there. Now that they brought it in the middle of the game...

 

[Fernando Deutsch]

Probably AC should implement a more realistic engine damage on over-revolution the engine by both shifting late and downshift to early. But then I think people will start to complain about physics being broken or whatever, just similar to the discussion about implement brake temperature and wear.

I personally think the engine protection is good. I always dislike seen drivers slowdown the car by downshifting like crazy. Of course there are engines designed to endure that use, but not all of them.

 

[Brandon Wright]

But DSP isn't an aid like TC which you can adjust.

Where did I say that DSP was an aid like TC?? Dude, calm down, I'm not saying anything bad about AC (in fact I was mostly defending the addition of DSP to AC). In basic terms it is an aid in the sense that it it removes one of the decisions that a driver has to make during the course of a lap and aids them in extending the longevity of their equipment. All I was saying was that I'd guess most drivers would love the chance to race cars that weren't full of electronic gizmo's (aids) that made decisions for them and instead it was their own inputs that made the difference. This comment wasn't directed at Assetto Corsa, it was about the racing world in general.

Geez.

 

[Radu Oros]

I wasn't replying to you Brandon. But Rui Santos who had/has the argument that DSP is an aid that should be optional for the player. I don't know if he still thinks the same way, so my post above was about that. That it is not an optional aid, is something built into the car system, like rev limiter is, or other stuff modern or relatively modern paddle shifting or sequential stick road/race cars have.

 

[Rui Santos]

When you have various levels of slipstream effect why can't you have an option to disable DSP?

End of day is a racing game, the most important point is the fun, you want hardcore or easier? You configure it as you want...

 

[Brandon Wright]

That it is not an optional aid, is something built into the car system, like rev limiter is, or other stuff modern or relatively modern paddle shifting or sequential stick road/race cars have.

Yeah, but TC and ABS aren't optional aids in most race cars (that use them), they're built into the car system just like DSP, yet we can turn those on and off as we desire. I'm not saying we should be able to turn DSP off, but it does create a bit of a strange dichotomy where we can turn on/off some systems but not others with no real rhyme or reason as to why.

Anyway, it's really not that big of a deal, after driving with it for a few hours I adapted to it and now I can't even remember the last time I triggered the DSP.

 

[Radu Oros]

When you have various levels of slipstream effect why can't you have an option to disable DSP?

End of day is a racing game, the most important point is the fun, you want hardcore or easier? You configure it as you want...

I knew you would bring again the argument of slipstream effect multiplier, tyre wear, fuel usage, things you can control in game but not in real life.
But there's a reason why DSP shouldn't be something considered to be controlled by the player. Because that is something which belongs to the car, more than abs, tc, stability. Even though some cars are really built to be used with abs.
So driving for example a GT3 car in game, you are simulating the car behavior from real life. Without DSP, you are no longer simulating the same things you can do with the car. So basically without DSP you can exploit the car in ways in which the real life driver can't do when he downshifts. But of course you could also exploit in-game tyre wear, fuel, and slipstream multiplier... but then should we ask the devs to make optional for GT3 cars the rev limiter, engine cut off, electronic kicker, maybe even ask them to give us the option to make the GT3 car manual transmission, exaggeration I know.

 

[Brandon Wright]

So driving for example a GT3 car in game, you are simulating the car behavior from real life. Without TC/ABS, you are no longer simulating the same things you can do with the car. So basically without TC/ABS you can exploit the car in ways in which the real life driver can't do.

Not trying to be argumentative, but what you said applies the same to TC and ABS. So far as I know a driver can't fully deactivate either of those on a GT3 car (someone correct me if I'm wrong), yet we can drive a GT3 car in AC without TC or ABS. Also, I highly doubt there is a competition GT3 car available with an automatic transmission, yet in AC we can drive a GT3 car with an auto box which is no longer simulating how you would drive a real GT3 car.

I'm not advocating on either side of this argument, I think the DSP is fine as it is, I'm just pointing out inconsistencies in this logic. Sure, TC and ABS are driving aids that influence the performance of the car and DSP is simply a safety device to protect the mechanics of the car, but both are fundamental systems of the car that have an effect on the driving behavior. Where do we draw the line for "simulating the car behavior from real life"?

This is all rhetorical since I already know what the response will be and I really don't care one way or the other about DSP. It's really not worth raising a fuss about because after an hour or two of driving you'll adapt to it and forget it's even there. It's just more fodder for the AC Lovers to sing about and the AC Haters to complain about since both camps have already made up their mind that Kunos can do no wrong/right.