PC1 Banned for no reason!

[Matthew Hardwick]

*Comes back to check after previous post*
*Facepalms repeatedly*
*Reminds self to ignore this thread*
Same old crap. "Boohoo my freedom of speech was violated because they don't like it when I posted crap and was rude"

Yea we get it Lee, Andy ect., Nogrip and WMD are evil Nazis because they don't let you insult them freely and the rest of us are fanboys. You must be such nice people to hang out with

 

[Lee Ross]

*Comes back to check after previous post* Yep still not agreeing with me, off for another huff, que toys being thrown out of pram
*Facepalms repeatedly* Indeed
*Reminds self to ignore this thread* Your choice i suppose but as always the truth does hurt

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Same old crap. "Boohoo my freedom of speech was violated because they don't like it when I posted crap and was rude"

Funny how things seem to be fairly civil here....

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Yes, you are right we are not experts but guess what i know what feels right to me and also guess what if pCARS is realistic and doing it right then every other sim is arcade and doing it wrong, because all the others feel similar to each other, that suggests to me that the others are the sims that are indeed right.

Gotta remember Ross, they don't know any better than us, and when you think about it, what value is a racing drivers input when despite their involvement/endorsement, some games are clearly arcade anyway.
It seems to me, that comparing sims vs sims and referencing real world car behaviour is the only way to do it, and for me, that places games like GTR Evo, FVA, GSC and maybe rf2 at some point as unquestionably the benchmarks for racing sims.

By that reasonable criteria, pcars is just Shift2 again, plus, if you listen to them blabber over at WMD, they're aiming for sales of 4mill approx, and since when do sims sell in those numbers....?

I thought the whole purpose of the community funding was to bypass the constraints of a money obsessed publisher, but it seems they're emulating the very thing they deemed the problem....!!

 

[Lee Ross]

Gotta remember Ross, they don't know any better than us, and when you think about it, what value is a racing drivers input when despite their involvement/endorsement, some games are clearly arcade anyway.
It seems to me, that comparing sims vs sims and referencing real world car behaviour is the only way to do it, and for me, that places games like GTR Evo, FVA, GSC and maybe rf2 at some point as unquestionably the benchmarks for racing sims.

By that reasonable criteria, pcars is just Shift2 again, plus, if you listen to them blabber over at WMD, they're aiming for sales of 4mill approx, and since when do sims sell in those numbers....?

I thought the whole purpose of the community funding was to bypass the constraints of a money obsessed publisher, but it seems they're emulating the very thing they deemed the problem....!!

I agree but have to say that i don't think it's like SHIFT2 but i think pCARS is what SHIFT2 was meant to be from the start. By that i mean, it's more of a refined/fixed? SHIFT2, i think honestly hand on heart it's alot better than the SHIFT physics and FFB but that title was so broke that anything is an improvement.

At the end of the day, pCARS just feels like say GT5 or Forza for me, it's a simulation like they are but it's not up there with the likes of NKP and rF2, not even close and it never will be. They are catering to a different audience and have restraints.

I believe in the end like you it will be a good solid title. They are dedicated and work extremely hard behind the scenes as much as they are pretty poor with how they are perceived, there is no denying that they have some extreme talent. But it's always gonna be a title that you just stick on for some fun with some AI, it's not something i can take seriously and see myself still racing 2-3 years after release let alone the 5-6 years i did with rF1. The physics and everything else is just not deep enough for me. Graphics are not enough to keep me interested

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

At the end of the day, pCARS just feels like say GT5 or Forza for me, it's a simulation like they are but it's not up there with the likes of NKP and rF2, not even close and it never will be. They are catering to a different audience and have restraints.

But wasn't that perfectly clear from the beginning? Its about the blingbling and not about the physics. The whole introduction of pCARS was a repetition of SHIFT that was promised to be the ultimate sim that caters to both simmers and arcade gamers as well

it's not something i can take seriously and see myself still racing 2-3 years after release let alone the 5-6 years i did with rF1

No gaming company wants their title to survive for 5 to 6 years like happened with GTR2 as its not in their best interests. Financially its much better for SMS to produce a new title or DLC every year (F1, FIFA etc).

I am actuallly quite surprised when I read this thread that people are upset finding out that pCARS will not be the ultimate hardcore simulation as that was crystal clear from the beginning imo. But people believe what they want to believe and really thought they had a say in the development because they chipped in 10 euros. When the masses have a say in something the outcome will always be an average of all opinions and ideas and hench it will never be the utlimate sim as sims don't sell to a large audience.

With EA and SHIFT the team has smelled the money that you can make when producing a multiplatform title and we can't blame them for wanting to have maximum profits from their business. As that is what it is eventually all about: work and mouths need to be fed.

I can only applaud ISI and Kunos for their straightforward approach with rFactor 2 and Assetto Corsa. Games that are made purely for the niche we love most: sim racing. But don't forget that both teams are significantly smaller in size compared to SMS and don't need to make (or invest) millions to be a healthy company.

 

[Lee Ross]

Your right Bram, i didn't literally mean 5-6 years. I mean as a title it's something that will fizzle out rather quickly after release, it won't have deep enough physics and so will not have the longevity and like you say pCARS2 will possibly be out the following week after pCARS. I was sucked in if i'm honest as where it started over at NG it seemed so promising. Over the months though it became clearer and clearer to me the way the title was heading, i stuck with it for a while and even defended the game like crazy with the Pre-Alpha tag, but as said it just became clearer and clearer that it really wasn't going to be what it had been made out to be. The feel really never changed, it's just that SMS feel that they have but obviously as said above more refined this time round

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I am actuallly quite surprised when I read this thread that people are upset finding out that pCARS will not be the ultimate hardcore simulation as that was crystal clear from the beginning imo. .

You should have a read at the physics section of WMD, they talk like it's a sim and upload various diagrams etc trying to get their point across, also, I defy anyone to go to the physics section of WMD and suggest this is strictly a GT5 competitor and see the reaction.
One of the reasons I keep bothering with this is because I think it's an obscenity to call it a sim, and then also hide behind the pre-alpha/beta/delta when the obvious is pointed out.

 

[Rob Every]

David, that is the point i like to try and make too.

This whole thread highlights the issue really. there are plenty of sort of arcadey titles out there now that are much more polished, and more importantly, much more friendly.

I think the main issue with WMD is that people feel they have been led down the garden path a little bit. Yes, I realise you have not invested a lot, but the original Shift game was marketed as a sim, I know coz I bought it. And in part I was impressed. For a console game (and there we have the crux of it) it was fairly good. Addictive, more than chellenging and easy anough to pick up. It looked very pretty and that was really its main feature.

It is clear that PS3 is lacking a game like this. Xbox have it with Forza, that is the daddy but PS don't have it. GT5 is too geeky and Japanese (lets win another Skyline/Supra/Civic yawn) and the rest are too arcadey.

Shift are clearly trying for the PS3 Forza market. But, if they want to get our input then why not be clear about what they are trying to end up with, as it's clearly not going to be a PC sim title in the same vein as Iracing.

That is what I felt let down about. My bad as I should have read all the bumph more thoroughly, but hiding behind the alpha stuff is garbage. An alpha game would be far less finished and polished. CARS is a game as it is, it all works pretty much! It's just that it is clearly not designed to operate on a PC with a decent wheel setup.

Why don't they just admit it, and then they won't waste peoples time? It's pretty simple really.

But instead they hide behind making it a sim sort of and being far too defensive. I mean cmon if you are going to open up a work forum to the general public really what do you expect! Thats just naieve!

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I've been reading this whole thread and obviously some people can't make a point without insulting people personally. It's time to stop it now.

Discuss the game in a civil way please without making it personal. Really not needed and looks very ugly.

 

[Chronus]

But wasn't that perfectly clear from the beginning? Its about the blingbling and not about the physics. The whole introduction of pCARS was a repetition of SHIFT that was promised to be the ultimate sim that caters to both simmers and arcade gamers as well

You are probably right, Bram, but I remember initial discussions with the development team and Ian himself - the blingbling eye-candy stuff was sure to be important for a title such as this, but the hard work was set to be in the area of hardware interface(s) and physics. They wanted to make sure that the simulation chore was taken care of first. Now, no doubt, that has taken a backstage to the eye-candy minutia.

No gaming company wants their title to survive for 5 to 6 years like happened with GTR2 as its not in their best interests. Financially its much better for SMS to produce a new title or DLC every year (F1, FIFA etc).

I'd agree BUT...

ISI is proof to the contrary. SIMBIN is also a proof to the contrary, not only because they launched GTR2 which was quite open to modding, but because they didn't shut the door on modding for Race07 either. So, disregarding Race (the first one) and RacePro (PS3), SIMBIN released 3 major titles in close to 7 years, and al of them survive today. In the mean time, SIMBIN bet on expansion packs, inexpensive extensions to Race07, and this managed to both help the community and help inject some revenue.

But indeed, long-life sims are contrary to what investors (EA, Virgin, Konami) want. Which in turn demands that people be attracted more than ever to the transient stuff like blingbling - hence the sim-hopping.

With EA and SHIFT the team has smelled the money that you can make when producing a multiplatform title and we can't blame them for wanting to have maximum profits from their business. As that is what it is eventually all about: work and mouths need to be fed.

Sadly.

I can only applaud ISI and Kunos for their straightforward approach with rFactor 2 and Assetto Corsa. Games that are made purely for the niche we love most: sim racing. But don't forget that both teams are significantly smaller in size compared to SMS and don't need to make (or invest) millions to be a healthy company.

True.

But then, the ultimate question is: if your team and company is BIG, and you need successive titles to survive, why then promise the nice crowd that they will get the "best sim ever"?

That is the crux, for me. Nowadays people passively accept that politicians lie to them and it becomes normal, accepted practice for politicians to lie; gaming dev companies lie to their customers, and we simply accept that. That is what is wrong.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I think the main issue with WMD is that people feel they have been led down the garden path a little bit.

True dat, but it's also just sticking up for genuine sims, and tbh, with the attitude and hostility that the numpties at WMD/NG have shown, I feel it's my duty to ensure that pcars is put in it's place.

 

[Andy_J]

(Content sent to simberia as it didn't match our ToS & Rules)

 

[Chronus]

True dat, but it's also just sticking up for genuine sims, and tbh, with the attitude and hostility that the numpties at WMD/NG have shown, I feel it's my duty to ensure that pcars is put in it's place.

Their attitude will not change, we know that. Maybe Ian B. will do something about it, maybe not.

But you have a hard fight in front of you, m8. These types enjoy stirring the pot - simracing is not even their "thing" and yet here they are.

If anyone did this on WMD forums or nogrip, they would be called a troll by members. There is no need to act like this here.

Indeed...but the hammer is always falling on those that oppose them. No matter how many face palms and the mockery they do, they're allowed to keep on going. When someone gives them the same treatment the hammer acts.

Anyway, it is best for us to ignore them, once and for all. Starting now...for me at least.

 

[Kazumi]

who cares if some people think pcars is the ultimate sim? they are entitled to their opinion just as you are about your favorite sim. i enjoy pcars a lot but that doesnt mean i think its the killer app for sim racers, i just enjoy the visuals and sounds and that helps me cope with the driving. its not the best, but not attrocious for me either.

Anyone is entitled to think that. Anyone can say they want them to create the "ultimate sim". But that is not what happened. You can... or rather should be able to say what you said (good visuals, good sound, driving could be better - no reason why anyone take that as offensive as in the end every sim no matter how good could be even better IMHO).

 

[Nathan Robinson]

My post wasn't intended for anyone in specific. When I say "you guys" I mean people like David who went through the trouble to make a rating guide for a true sim. This guide makes Race 07 a high rated sim and I disagree with that. I've adminned other leagues where Race 07 dies because of its lack of immersion and sometimes wonky handling. When racing a car, you should feel exhilerated and on edge, and the harder to drive sims dont capture this for me. Iracing seems realistic, but I just dont feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants. This is what pcars has captured for me, the rush of what I imagine racing to feel like. It might not have the feel of a proper race car, but I believe, when multiplayer comes out, that it will bring out the adrenaline. Pcars haters say its catered to controllers, but rfactor is pretty easy to drive with a controller as well and it is an immensley popular sim.

I'm sorry for straying from the topic but the general direction of this whole thread has been away from the original topic. How WMD handles their business should not be tied into NoGrip. WMD is a business and NoGrip is a community site. I agree that WMD issues should not be taken out on NoGrip but Racedepartments forums shouldnt be the place to discuss that stuff. It's a lot of he said she said and for guys like me who don't hang at NoGrip, this looks very childish and petty.

PS. Nice cat Kazumi

 

[Micas_WMD]

Micas for me really does give pCARS a bad image and i firmly believe he not only annoys us but i think he also annoys Ian Bell, but obviously with the money he has put in, he is basically free to do as he likes. I bet though if it was not a hassle he would of kicked that guys ass off a long time ago. Harder to kick someone out who has put thousands in.

So now we've come to another forum to escalate the slander and speculate? Ian and I have a good relationship, he has never asked me to change a thing. More than once I've posted in the Senior Managers forum that if they have any issue with me, I'll be happy to address it. In other words, I don't know how many times or different ways I'd need to set the record straight that Ian has no problem with what I post, and he enjoys much of my writing. I could take a screenshot of the PM he sent me last week asking me to get more involved in the WMD forums if you like.. but ultimately nothing I could say would make any difference - truth is not worth even considering. It's not Ian's style to post on external forums in situations like this, but I guarantee you that we respect each other and are working together to make pCARS a terrific sim.

Much of the other stuff I've read here is similarly simply not true, but to say that it's not true somehow interferes with a persons "free speech" rights. In other words, it's vitally important that anyone can sling any mud they want, but correcting their error is somehow an attempt to "silence" them. That's a strange thing.

Ultimately, what I find perplexing is the venom with which people feel they need to cast on certain individuals, SMS, and pCARS in general. It's as if that is the entertainment you draw from your experience with pCARS.. not the sim itself, but the fun causing drama with innuendo and outright lies.

Instead of just moving on to something else that might be enjoyable, people are trying to hurt SMS and pCARS for some reason.. hoping that it'll be a bad game, speculating on what the finished product will be when it's about a year away from release, and then slandering individual WMD members who have put a lot of time, effort, and money behind the project. It's become your personal mission to do as much harm as possible? If you exhaust your efforts at one forum, then you go to the next and start again?

I fully understand that nothing I could say.. nor anyone from SMS, or any of the WMD mods, would mean anything to this group of people that are feeding on the negativity. I know I could say something isn't true from first hand knowledge of the issue, but I'd just be called a liar. It's far more appealing to speculate and draw conclusions void of any real information.

But ya.. you'll probably get banned from WMD.. but this is good news for you. It just goes to show how heavy handed SMS is, and how unfair it all is. You should be able to make up anything you want, damage SMS as much as possible, and then go back to their platform, do it there as well, and check out recent builds. SMS should just let everyone stab them for as long as they want before saying that enough is enough.

When the ban comes through, which I'm guessing will happen, be sure and play it up for all it's worth. You can get a lot of sympathy if you play the victim well enough. Meanwhile, I'll be checking out the Mono they added with today's build.. and we'll be talking about new game features and so on. I can see you're having a lot of fun with what you're doing here. We're having a lot of fun over at WMD as well.. so cheers!

 

[David Ignjatovic]

This guide makes Race 07 a high rated sim and I disagree with that.i

Trouble is, sense of speed can't make up for poor FFB or steering precision, IOW, if the basics aren't right/close, then no visual aids can help.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

, but I guarantee you that we respect each other and are working together to make pCARS a terrific sim.
!

Sim?????????, maybe racing game, but sim, I think that's a big stretch atm.

 

[Lee Ross]

My post wasn't intended for anyone in specific. When I say "you guys" I mean people like David who went through the trouble to make a rating guide for a true sim. This guide makes Race 07 a high rated sim and I disagree with that. I've adminned other leagues where Race 07 dies because of its lack of immersion and sometimes wonky handling. When racing a car, you should feel exhilerated and on edge, and the harder to drive sims dont capture this for me. Iracing seems realistic, but I just dont feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants. This is what pcars has captured for me, the rush of what I imagine racing to feel like. It might not have the feel of a proper race car, but I believe, when multiplayer comes out, that it will bring out the adrenaline. Pcars haters say its catered to controllers, but rfactor is pretty easy to drive with a controller as well and it is an immensley popular sim.

I'm sorry for straying from the topic but the general direction of this whole thread has been away from the original topic. How WMD handles their business should not be tied into NoGrip. WMD is a business and NoGrip is a community site. I agree that WMD issues should not be taken out on NoGrip but Racedepartments forums shouldnt be the place to discuss that stuff. It's a lot of he said she said and for guys like me who don't hang at NoGrip, this looks very childish and petty.

PS. Nice cat Kazumi

That is the issue right there Nathan. WMD is a business and i have said countless times now that what goes on in the forums is their business. NoGrip is a " community " forum, at least it used to be. See the point? WMD employees moderating a pCARS sub- forum on a " community " forum, what is so hard to understand?



Micas - Oh the irony, bye bye - Ignored Should just add actually, that i have not lied, most of your best comments are quoted in this very thread Micas. So the nice guy attitude shown above doesn't wash