Will Mercedes Get Tyre'd Tomorrow?

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Markus Neumann Probably the Suspension Geometry

 

[Samuel Fuller]

I think the teams need to stop moaning about the tyres. They all had them to test they knew they would be high wearing and needed to design a car around that. Some teams have done a better job and the others should stop trying to get the tyres changed and focus on sorting there car out.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I think it's too simplistic to speak of downforce in general. You'd at least have to take front and rear as well as high- and low-speed downforce into account. Lotus was insanely fast through T3 in Catalunya, which is all about aero (and that turn is also the one that attacks the left front the most, which was the limiting factor in the race, and yet Lotus did the best job of preserving it), whereas Mercedes was best in the last sector, where aero really isn't that important. Similar with Ferrari and Red Bull. Plus, downforce is a two-edged knife: too much, and you kill the tyres, too little and you get wheelspin/don't get them up to temperature, which destroys them even more.
And besides, if it really was so simple, then why wouldn't RB and Merc just drive with less wing? Better tyre wear and more straight line speed - what's not to like?

I think you can, front and rear is balance rather then pure downforce.
at high speed all top cars produce enough downforce, so much that they remove wings at Monza for example because of the high speeds.

I wouldn´t say insanely fast. In that sector they were one tenth up. That tenth could have come from top speed (Ferrari) or braking into T1.

The fact that Mercedes was best in last sector doesn´t detract from the fact it´s got loads of downforce. It´s just in the DNA of the car/setup.

Mercedes are even setting their cars up strictly for race and yet they manage to grab three poles in a row with the only other competitor over one lap is the red bull.

Both cars produce more downforce then the Lotus and Ferrari, if they didn´t they would not have taken all the poles so far. The last two poles Rosberg was genuinely confused at how he took pole.

It´s just like Newey says, there´s a direct link between downforce and tire life and it´s not so easy to simply turn have lower AoA on the wings and think the problem is solved.
If it was they would have done it already.

Proper tires on the Mercedes and Red Bull and they would have dominated the championship.
I´m talking lapping the Ferrari and Lotus, easy.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Then there´s obviously this factor that the Lotus with or without these tires is kind on it´s tires and the opposite of Mercedes but still, the downforce aspect gets laid on top of that.

They are essentially being penalized for actually doing a hell of a job in terms of car designing but they are not allowed to use it because that would mean 8-10 stops or something silly like that.

 

[Markus Neumann]

I think you can, front and rear is balance rather then pure downforce.

Well, the two are connected because for example if you don't have enough rear downforce all the front downforce in the world won't help you because you'll just get terrible oversteer. Especially the Mercs of the last years had that problem.

The fact that Mercedes was best in last sector doesn´t detract from the fact it´s got loads of downforce. It´s just in the DNA of the car/setup.

Is there any evidence for this? Over the last years, downforce was always the weakest point of the car and Hamilton also pointed out at the start of the year that it still had less than the McLaren of last year. Where is all that alleged downforce supposed to have come from?

It´s just like Newey says, there´s a direct link between downforce and tire life and it´s not so easy to simply turn have lower AoA on the wings and think the problem is solved.
If it was they would have done it already.

Yes, that's what I said >.< If too much downforce was the cause of their tyre problems, they would just take it off the car. It's not very hard to do and even provides some benefits in terms of straight-line speed (whether you do it through the wings or the exhaust). If the Ferrari and Lotus really were better at tyre management because they are worse cars, that would put the RB and Merc on par with them (or even better, because the modified RB and Merc would have more speed).
Evidently, it's not that simple. Ergo, pure downforce is not the cause of their problems.

Amusing anecdote on the side: When Kubica was testing in Mercedes' simulator, they asked him if he knew what the cause of Lotus great tyre management was (since he had driven the car's predecessors). He told them that Lotus themselves probably don't even know and it's more likely that it's just been part of the car's DNA that hasn't changed over the years.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Well, the two are connected because for example if you don't have enough rear downforce all the front downforce in the world won't help you because you'll just get terrible oversteer. Especially the Mercs of the last years had that problem.

Exactly. But you don´t simply remove front wing so you have very poor downforce front and rear because that would be even worse then having a slightly stronger rear end and work around it.

Is there any evidence for this? Over the last years, downforce was always the weakest point of the car and Hamilton also pointed out at the start of the year that it still had less than the McLaren of last year. Where is all that alleged downforce supposed to have come from?

Evidence for what? That it got loads of downforce and yet have great mechanical grip?
I think the evidence is in the times and the three straight poles.

Well first of all, the Mclaren of last year probably could have won a couple of races this year.
Where the DF came from? Updates of course. That was pre-season testing.
Alot of things have changed, some not visible to the eye but internal stuff and on top of that probably further knowledge about the FRIC system.

Yes, that's what I said >.< If too much downforce was the cause of their tyre problems, they would just take it off the car.

But it´s not that easy to simply remove downforce and think the problem is solved.
Again, Newey himself say there´s a direct linkage between more downforce - worse tire life.
You don´t think he would start removing element after element if it was that easy?

It's not very hard to do and even provides some benefits in terms of straight-line speed

That´s gearing philosophy then anything really.

Ergo, pure downforce is not the cause of their problems.

Call Red Bull and Mercedes tomorrow and tell them they got it all wrong.
And fire Newey while you are at it because clearly he has no idea what he´s talking about..

Amusing anecdote on the side: When Kubica was testing in Mercedes' simulator, they asked him if he knew what the cause of Lotus great tyre management was (since he had driven the car's predecessors). He told them that Lotus themselves probably don't even know and it's more likely that it's just been part of the car's DNA that hasn't changed over the years.

As i said, they and Mercedes have extra luggage but it doesn´t retract from the original point.
You can instead look at Red Bull and Ferrari. two cars with no extra luggage, good or bad.

 

[Markus Neumann]

So you're saying that RB and Mercedes are currently working to get downforce off their car?

 

[Hampus Andersson]

So you're saying that RB and Mercedes are currently working to get downforce off their car?

No i´ve been saying for three straight posts now that it´s not that easy...
And it´s not that easy to simply say to the driver "well put less load through the tire, simple"

But getting the tires changed so they don´t penalize the best cars.
Which will most likely happen as even Hembrey thinks it´s too much for now.
the tires are not like last year. It´s a very different type of tire, way more fragile, just look at all the complete tire failures this year.
Paul brushes it off saying "well if it happened last year he would not have made it back to the pits"
No **** but had he been running last years tires he probably wouldn´t have a puncture in the first place.

Last year if you had the fastest car you could open up a gap and then run to the pace of the guys behind, essentially saving your tires and cruising around. (i.e. Hamilton Singapore, Vettel Korea etc)

This year you can´t. Fastest cars will eat their tires anyways.
If Vettel, Webber, Rosberg and Hamilton had pushed the tires would have been shredded to pieces.

If it were bridgestones they would have simply dominated, the Ferrai and Lotus possibly could have done one stop less but they would have had a snow balls chance in hell to even compete with the Merc and Red Bull because those are the two cars with the most naked pace.

It´s been 5 totally different tracks and they have all been dominated by Merc and RBR.
And in the races, even the ones Vettel has won would have been won by either a Ferrari or Lotus.

 

[Jordi Casademunt]

My armchair expert degree allows me to state with the utmost accuracy, that this is indeed caused not by downforce, but by other aerodynamic affairs.

Namely, front wings have become too efficient at redirecting air around the tyres. Air-starved, the tyres can't evacuate heat fast enough, and thus become jelly.

And now, getting a bit more serious but still as an armchair expert, if it was ONLY a matter of amount of downforce, I'm pretty sure Red Bull and Mercedes would get it right in just a couple races. It's been 5 races and they are just as bad as in the first race. There's probably a myriad of factors that could lead to the tyres not working correctly. And I'm not claiming "raw" downforce isn't one of them, but it can't be the only one.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

feedback@redbullf1.com

the two outfits are arguing that it is not fair that the tire supplier's 2013 products seem to be penalizing the best cars. Indeed, while in the past high downforce tended to minimize tire wear, the opposite phenomenon is apparently occurring now, and according to Red Bull and Mercedes that also poses a safety risk. Correspondent Michael Schmidt said: "Adrian Newey has made the direct link between downforce and wear." World Champion Sebastian Vettel confirmed: "The better the car, the worse shape you're in."

Seems like there´s two jobs available at Red Bull.

Boullier thinks that Red Bull have designed their car in a way which ”is all based on the aero.” ”This is why, when the tyres start to be an important part of the car and the car performance, they may struggle.”

 

[Markus Neumann]

Is there some kind of rule that says the car with the most downforce needs to be the best car?

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Is there some kind of rule that says the car with the most downforce needs to be the best car?

Yea it´s been like that since downforce was invented.
the only think that have stopped it before has been reliability. Not once has tires like this existed.

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Is there some kind of rule that says the car with the most downforce needs to be the best car?

If you look at Past years from the New Regulation the More downforce car was the best car.
2009- Brawn/RBR
2010- RBR
2011- RBR
2012 - Mclaren
I think the Problem of Merc and may be for RBR is

During the pre-race show on NBCSports yesterday, Matchett was saying the Mercedes wasn't getting the rear tires to flex the sidewall enough through the corners causing the tire to stay more on the inside shoulder rather than rolling onto the larger contact patch in the middle of the tire.

 

[Markus Neumann]

Yea it´s been like that since downforce was invented.
the only think that have stopped it before has been reliability. Not once has tires like this existed.

fastest != best

And what I meant is that just because it's been like this in the past doesn't meant that there is some kind of norm that dictates that it would be unfair if this was no longer the case.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

fastest != best

And what I meant is that just because it's been like this in the past doesn't meant that there is some kind of norm that dictates that it would be unfair if this was no longer the case.

In 99.9% of F1 history where Aerodynamics has been present the car with the most downforce has won the championships.
Unless reliability has struck. And they also dominated races.
In some cases you can do like Red Bull did when they had so much downforce that they managed to completely flip Monza up side down because of their downforce.

Downforce is and always will be king.....well that was up to this year where Pirelli created a tire that penalizes the teams who actually have designed brilliant cars.

Pirelli knows that if they created a normal tire like last year, RBR and Mercedes would be leading the pack because they have built the best cars.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

It´s so bad now that they are actually dictating the outcome of the championship.
Puppet masters.

Speaking to Autosport he said “There have been concerns from some of the teams that the changes will favour one team or another, but we don’t think that will be the case,”

“These changes are being made for Pirelli, not for anyone else. We need to get the balance right.
“We didn’t want to over-react, because by doing that we could then be helping certain teams.”
When asked if the changes would allow a team like Red Bull to dominate he said “We would hope not. But of course we always face that risk.”
“People will say it is pressure from Red Bull, but there has not been excessive pressure from them,”
“In fairness to Christian Horner [team principal], a lot more has been said in the media this week than what they have told me.”

What this really means is they are trying not make a good tire which will not allow Red Bull to dominate but instead they are building a tire so that Lotus and Ferrari can fight for the championship.

An utter joke. Hopefully 2014 have tires made of granite or something. It´s way to ridiculous now.

 

[Markus Neumann]

Well, looks like you get what you wanted:

From Canada changes to be made to bring back 2 to 3 stops. Some structural changes combining elements 2012 and 2013 products.

https://twitter.com/PaulHembery/status/334249291742863360

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Yea proper tires, 2012 tires will be perfect. They never penalized good cars.

Here´s another interesting comment from F1T, the guy is not affiliated with Mercedes but say he knows some of the aero guys there.

After reading today's news about the Pirelli and some interesting comments form Paul Hembery. I really think Mercedes has build a fast car but the car is to fast for the tyres.

Its sound strange but: "We're looking at compounds and structure, and the idea is obviously to get back to our two/three stop strategies," Hembery said. "What you've got at the moment is a combination of the cars are really going hard - much harder than we had anticipated, big steps forward in performance - together with a structure that pushes very heavily the compounds. It's a very aggressive structure in the corners and you're pushing the compounds beyond the limits. ESPN F1 interview.

So the quali pace of Merc shows that car is quick but at same time Merc during quali takes the tyres beyond there limit. The tyres can cope with that for 1 lap with less fuel. But doing the same with heavy fuel means abusing the tyres with the result of overheating issues. I never thought i was going to say this, but Mercedes have to build slower car

. The STR with Riccardio was 1.1 sec of lewis during qualifying but ended 2 places higher then Lewis. This proves that slower cars put less stress in the tyres with the result of less abuse during the race.

 

[Samuel Fuller]

The designers were given the job of designing a car which will be the fastest over a race legnth with the tyres they had already tested and knew what they were like. mercedes and redbull haven't achieved the design spec I don't understand why they are moaning?

 

[Hampus Andersson]

The designers were given the job of designing a car which will be the fastest over a race legnth with the tyres they had already tested and knew what they were like. mercedes and redbull haven't achieved the design spec I don't understand why they are moaning?

If it only worked like that. Almost magic...
You don´t understand why they are moaning because you don´t understand the situation in the first place.

In your world (lalaland) everyone has built a car that only needs one stop to change tires because they tested the compounds last year and built their car accordingly....