What have they done to the DTM 92 physics?

Calvyn White

Calv Killmore
Well, I can no longer hold my tongue.
Once Upon a Time, these cars were my favourites. My God sector 3 what have you done.

Force Feedback is terrible you no brake lockup feel whatsoever in some cars. You have no clue if the tires are locking up at all unless crew chief tells you. And in the effort of trying to get any sensation from the brakes, you will only be messing up other feedback sensations.
It's not all bad but this sensation to me is an extremely big requirement. And this is just one particular problem there are many more which I'm sure you know. I suppose overall the Force Feedback is slightly better in some areas but unfortunately, the loss in others is greater. But enough about the Force Feedback on trying to keep this short.

The physics is diabolical one little touch in the gravel and you can lose 2 seconds just like that not anywhere near realistic in my opinion. One little touch on a high curb will send you spinning and there's very little you can do about it in the car setup settings it is constantly there very little you can do in the way of any alterations in the setup to compensate. If there's any you'll be slower.
To make the car in anyway stabler you will be considerably slower. Of course, this is always been so but nowhere near as much as it is now.

As far as I'm concerned they have removed from some car setup adjustments like a fast rebound, power, and coast. Take the BMW in this classic cars, for instance, has no coast or power anymore why? when other cars in this class do. To me, it is yet another unfinished update.

And speaking of updates my goodness if I was partially blind I can understand the UI being so bloody big what a waste of real estate.
The front and rear should be on one page I don't need a big picture of my car that I'm driving so I don't see the point in that.
I'd rather see the front and rear on the same page so I can quickly see the difference between the front and rear instead of clicking on bloody tabs.

I may have said it before the UI looked a little bit simcady it certainly does now. In a word, awful. To be honest, I think all of what is displayed on tabs could be shown on one page there is no need for it to be this big this does not do the viewer any favourites whatsoever having so much nonsense within the interface pictures of cars pictures of bonnet emblems what's the bloody point of that except wasting room for things now you have to go to other pages to see. It's a clickfest.

Why have they added on some cars in some classes two compounds of tyres for the leaderboard what's that all about? But honestly what's the point of using tyre pressures if you haven't got the use of tyre temperatures. What's the point of having tyre pressures if you can't see what it's doing to the temperature senseless and pointless. I guess there must be some kind of sense behind it. I just don't seem it I guess.

Speaking of changing it. I've hardly ever heard of any complaints about the Force Feedback and the physics was ok not too much to complain about there well up until this point.
It seems to me everything it's been playing about or mentioned in discussion for improvement has been ignored and everything is been not up for discussion or complain about has been altered. Bizarre.

This is my opinion in what they have done wrong which I'm afraid outweighs any good they have done buy a long way. So much so it's hardly worth mentioning anything any good they have done.

As I say a lot of senseless alterations and in my opinion, and not for the better.

On a scale of 1 to 10.
I give it a 3.75 A bit of a bodge job and an incomplete one at that.

Probably should have given this post a bigger font you know for the benefit of the blind. And just in case that guy who designed the UI can see what I'm saying.

But hey the important thing we get those cars and tracks updates.
Maybe they should do some more car and track updates a lot more that way they will have enough money to finish doing something.

I'm only saying this because it is my opinion that my favourite cars are nowhere near what they were. Every car I have driven from every virtual update this year is just horrendous the back-end has no grip the brakes have no feel just terrible.

PS:
Ross this post is probably (most likely) in the wrong place. If so please put it where you think is best. Thank you.:)
 
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If you're having FFB problems: go back to your wheels default profile and then increase 'Steering Force Intensity' if needed (even above 100% if you like).

I know this category was many people's favorite, but it has to be said, it had probably the most horribly unrealistic, arcade-ish physics in the whole sim before the patch... It was about time to finally update it to the current standard.

And I actually like the new setup screen. (How can a UI look simcadeish?)
 
If you're having FFB problems: go back to your wheels default profile and then increase 'Steering Force Intensity' if needed (even above 100% if you like).

I know this category was many people's favourite, but it has to be said, it had probably the most horribly unrealistic, arcade-ish physics in the whole sim before the patch... It was about time to finally update it to the current standard.

And I actually like the new setup screen. (How can a UI look simcadeish?)
Trust me I have worked on the Force Feedback and many variations of it over at least 15+ hours of work. I don't need intensity that's perfectly fine I need the feel when the wheels lock up. Like I used to. And I do know increasing the intensity will not bring this effect in the play.

Ok, let me put it another way for the UI. It looks amateurish and outdated. Unnecessary cumbersome. Like I said why would I want to use two tabs to see the front and back settings when it could be on one page so I can see it all for comparison instead of flicking back and forwards like I said amateurish.
As for the physics just alright I suppose slightly better but seems too sloppy and imprecise and certainly unpredictable. I supposed to different that I would get used to.

If anybody knows or can or has a fanatic 2.5 wheelbase set up while taking the latest update in consideration please post or know of one. As I do feel I'm going wrong somewhere with the advice that I've had and videos I've watched. As I'm still getting the same result, no breaking feedback.
 
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... one little touch in the gravel and you can lose 2 seconds just like that not anywhere near realistic in my opinion.
This applies to all cars though, not just the DTM `92s. I do think the affect is exaggerated, but I've always thought it was done on purpose to stop people taking the piss with track limits. Same reason you bump like crazy on grass as if you're driving over massive cobblestones.

As far as I'm concerned they have removed from some car setup adjustments like a fast rebound, power, and coast. Take the BMW in this classic cars, for instance, has no coast or power anymore why?
If they add or remove a setup option, it's generally to bring it in line with the real car. If something can't be adjusted on the real car, it can't in R3E either.

I may have said it before the UI looked a little bit simcady it certainly does now. In a word, awful.
I have to agree with you on the new setup screen. The old one desperately needed an update, but this new one isn't exactly great. As you say, I see no point in showing a big picture of your car wasting half the screen space for no reason. All of the available options would easily fit on one screen, two at the most, and would save needless clicking around.

(How can a UI look simcadeish?)
As well as gameplay, I think the term "simcade" can be used to describe things that are all visual and no substance, unnecessarily convoluted with visuals in mind instead of functionality. For me that describes the new setup screen.

Speaking of changing it. I've hardly ever heard of any complaints about the Force Feedback and the physics was ok not too much to complain about there well up until this point.
To be fair, there are always numerous complaints about FFB on the forums of every sim ever made. We all have our preferences on what we think makes the FFB "perfect". It's impossible for a sim to suit everyone since FFB isn't "realistic" in the first place, it's there to provide feedback on forces we would normally feel through the car, not the steering wheel.

Personally, I've always liked R3E's FFB and think the patch did improve it. It's possibly true that some braking feedback has been lost, but with the new tyre slip/skid sounds I've found it easy enough to adapt.

As for the DTM `92's themselves, I think they're an improvement on the old ones. It's true that they feel quite different now, but they were on very old physics before so that's to be expected. Given that S3 are slowly updating all the old content to bring it in line with the latest physics (which many devs don't bother doing) it had to be done. They were my favourite class before, and they still are now. It just takes a little time to adjust to the new feel, and then it's all good. Old habits die hard, but die they must.
 
Despite the Force Feedback changes and the physics they're not bad they are like you say Ross different and probably need a little fixing here in there. I'm sure in time I should get used to it as it's certainly isn't slowing me down any. :whistling: :)
I had a go in the fr x 90s and I am getting a little lockup sensation as I did with all cars. But then again I've only tried the gt3s and the DTM 92s. And I do believe that GT3 have abs factory standard. Which could be contributed to the lack of the lock-up sensation.
So I am hoping they are going to be a few little tweaks to the new Force Feedback.
 
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Assetto Corsa: Setup screen uses tabs
Assetto Corsa Competizione: Setup screen uses tabs
DiRT Rally 2.0: Setup screen uses tabs
F1 2019: Setup screen uses tabs
iRacing: Setup screen uses tabs
Project CARS 2: Setup screen uses tabs
rFactor 2: Setup screen uses tabs
RaceRoom Racing Experience: Why is the setup screen using tabs?!?! This is so simcade!!!

Regarding the tire pressures, you can see the tire temperatures on the car dash, in the setup screen and in the WebHUD.
 
I think the problem is that the latest patch wiped out most of those "artificial" FFB effects, the new one is based on the actual output of the physics engine. Sometimes reality can be a bit bland. But lately, my most used sims are heading in the same direction, ACC, R3E and rFactor 2 are pretty similar now after some minor adjustments. To be honest I'm not even sure what effect you guys miss as "locking feeling", probably I haven't been using that, because I don't recall missing anything particular during my test drives.
 
Hello, I'm the Sector 3 developer responsible for all of the vehicle handling revisions over the last 2.5 years. Sorry that you're not enjoying the latest developments as much as we'd like. I'm not sure if you've realised that all the 1992 DTM cars have ABS fitted as standard, so locking up isn't something you're going to be doing unless you switch it off. We also made a big effort to improve our ABS systems, and TC where applicable which means that, just like the real world systems, they offer a real advantage when switched on.
I did write a small section on what was updated and why, see here but it began with a totally clean sheet as the previous iteration of that class was severely lacking accuracy in a lot of areas.

Gravel trap feedback is interesting, I'll look in to that.

In terms of FFB, what wheel do you use?
 
Hello, I'm the Sector 3 developer responsible for all of the vehicle handling revisions over the last 2.5 years. Sorry that you're not enjoying the latest developments as much as we'd like. I'm not sure if you've realised that all the 1992 DTM cars have ABS fitted as standard, so locking up isn't something you're going to be doing unless you switch it off. We also made a big effort to improve our ABS systems, and TC where applicable which means that, just like the real world systems, they offer a real advantage when switched on.
I did write a small section on what was updated and why, see here but it began with a totally clean sheet as the previous iteration of that class was severely lacking accuracy in a lot of areas.

Gravel trap feedback is interesting, I'll look in to that.

In terms of FFB, what wheel do you use?
The new updates feel wonderful to me. I think it is wheel dependent for the most part. If you do change some of the 92 DTM handling, can I keep mine the same? Lol, great work on the new content as well!
 
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I suppose I should be more patient and accepting them as for what they are. If things are changed for the better and being more accurate that's something I do appreciate. But this old sod finds change difficult despite being for the better. I suppose I've not had enough time to adjust but in time I'm sure I will. But like I said the changes haven't slowed me down any. In fact I maybe even a little faster. :thumbsup:

And I'm using a fanatec CSW V2.5 with McLaren GT3 wheel. Which I am finding it very difficult to find a good setting. But I have tried and got one but despite this, I am not totally satisfied. Which is probably the problem in the first place.:(
 
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@Alex Hodgkinson
Hey Alex, I too have been struggling with the braking sensation phase. I am not sure if it's an adjustable ffb setting or lack of ffb feeling in the game/wheel?

What you say about the abs makes sense, what I am struggling to feel in the ffb is intial tire bite under braking or forward load to the tires....it just feels very flat and numb until grip is lost than the wheel goes light.

Any settings that could help with that in the menus?
I've followed all the advice on the S3 forms for my T300 tx...deleted old files, use default tunes on new cars etc.
I also noticed the base ffb settings in game for my wheel are extremely light on many cars, using the ffb monitoring tool in-game the ffb meter output is usually under 50% of the max output before clipping and I find I have to crank the min ffb multiplier per car. Is it meant to be like this or could I be experiencing an issue?

Driving wise asides from braking feels good with the latest update.

TM profile:
All settings 100%

In game:
FFB intesity 100
Smoothing 0
FFB spring 0
FFB Damper 30
Steering force 80
FFB min force 2
understeer 15
Vertical load 50
Lateral Load 50
Steering rack 30
Slip 0
Engine 0
Kerb 20
Shift effect 30
Collision 50

Cheers
David
 
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I have to agree with you on the new setup screen. The old one desperately needed an update, but this new one isn't exactly great. As you say, I see no point in showing a big picture of your car wasting half the screen space for no reason. All of the available options would easily fit on one screen, two at the most, and would save needless clicking around.
I agree there is a lot of wasted space in the new setup screens - but seen in the context that you can now see the individual laptimes in both Practice and LB mode I gladly accept some wasted space.:)
The only thing I miss in the new setup file managesment is a way of sorting the setups by name and/or date.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: There could(!) be a reason for the waste of space. Because if Raceroom later want to introduce some more sim-ish setup params then there is a lot of space to fill.:thumbsup:
 
@Kurupt CDN I'd recommend on that wheel increasing Steering force in order to increase the size of the peaks of the forces you feel in your wheel. You may want to go upward of 100%, even as high as 120% with your wheel. We added some layers in to our system here which are very subtle even with powerful wheels, so you will probably want to increase this value to feel them better.

A little tip: If you own Bilster Berg, the compression in T12 (uphill left hander - map) is probably the best place to test for clipping.
 
And I'm using a fanatec CSW V2.5 with McLaren GT3 wheel. Which I am finding it very difficult to find a good setting. But I have tried and got one but despite this, I am not totally satisfied. Which is probably the problem in the first place.
My flowchart for the ffb. Tested a lot, this is what made sense while looking at the ffb meter but it's not "officially approved".
I use these since I made that post, still feels very nice when jumping from sim to sim.

Link to the post:
https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/ts-pc-racer-ffb-feel.170796/#post-3006572

CSW 2.5 settings:
Sen: auto (auto or 900.. I think auto)
FF: 65-100 depending on how high you've set "steering force intensity" in the game
Sho: don't have a vibration rim
Abs: don't have vibration rim/pedal
Dri: -2 (GT3 cars -1 sometimes)
For: 100
Spr: 100
Dpr: 100
Fei: 100 (maybe down to 90 on some rought and bumpy tracks/cars or if sausage kerbs are too brutal)

And for brake I use 50 but the load cell isn't part of the ffb of course.

An important note:
The overall strength "FF" in the base does exactly the same as the "force feedback intensity" in the game.
It takes the finalized ffb signal from raceroom, no matter if it's clipping or not and dials it down.

So if you set steering force intensity to the maximum and have massive clipping all the time and then turn down the "force feedback intensity" or "FF" in the CSW base, the clipping signal will become weaker but the clipping already happened!

This is why I let the game "force feedback intensity" at 100 and dial the overall strength in on the fly on the base via the rim controls.


Additionally:
Raising steering force intensity and lowering the FF in the base will give you a more consistent force feedback with less dynamic.
So if you can't feel subtle details but sausage kerbs kick you in the nuts, raise steering force intensity and lower the FF in the base.
The subtle details will be amplified, the sausage kerb will be "clipped off".
 
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Regarding how to set up FFB not just in Raceroom, but demonstrated in Raceroom (following the recent update):


Be sure to read the pinned post before you start watching so you know what to expect.
 
Hi All, a question regarding this class and ABS. Does this class of car have ABS? I tend to leave my in game brake assist setting at ‘Factory ABS’ so if the car has ABS it’s on and if not, it’s off. For some reason I thought 92 DTM didn’t have ABS, but it shows as ON when driving.
 
Good question Paul.
I have the same settings as you and abs do appear to be on. Unfortunately, I'm not home to find out. But can you turn it off in the options will it actually turn it off?
But the most surprising thing is that it's on on a car I wouldn't expect to have abs at all. And like you, I never thought they did. Maybe the DTM 2013,14,15,16s "now". But if memory serves me right they didn't have any abs either.
I will have to check when I get home and see if I can make any sense of it.
 
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Good question Paul.
I have the same settings as you and abs do appear to be on. Unfortunately, I'm not home to find out. But can you turn it off in the options will it actually turn it off?

Greetings Calvyn, yes you can turn it off. If you set ‘ABS Off’ in the game settings it disables ABS on track. Like you, I feel the 92 DTM changes have been a backward step and with ABS Off I can’t control the braking at all - zero front wheel locking feel. At least with ‘Factory ABS’ set to ON, I can slow down, but I’ve spent some time on setup and can’t recreated my beloved BMW feel of old :(
 

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