Tactile feedback beginner

[FusionJohn]

I’m just starting out with tactile feedback and have ordered Behringer NX3000 (for future proofing) and a couple of Reckhorn BS-200i as an initial test thing. Can this combo work? Or would I require a DSP (the 3000 was a lot cheaper than 3000D). I realise the amp is overkill for the Reckhorns but I don’t want to keep replacing amps if I upgrade the transducers.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

US Amazon prices:
Behringer NX100D - $369.99
Crown XLS1002 - $289.00
SMSL SA-98E - $110.99

 

[Ormy]

Also, can the 1 amp power all 3?

This has to do with impedance and power. The info on the Reckhorn is scant and mostly in german, but from what I can tell it can handle 100W and has impendance of 4 ohms. NX3000D can handle 2 ohm per channel so you can wire them in parallel to one of the amp channels. However the amp can put out way more power than these Reckhorns can take (even with two connected sharing power), you will need to use the limiters built in to the amp to limit the power to the Reckhorns or you will overpower them.

This power limiting is one feature you will not have in software DSP like EQ APO, it has to be built into the amp itself.

A BK LFE should be fine on one channel on its own, not much worry of overpowering it, no limiter needed unless you want to be extra cautious.

Behringer is Chinese made budget grade, not known for the best quality and reliability, with always on noisy active cooling. There are better things around.

I know behringer has a bit of a reputation for being budget grade and exaggerating their specs, but honestly they are the best value you will find, even when looking at the real power figures, not behringers optimistic specs.

I own two iNukes, neither have shown any problems in years of constant use. Hundreds of other people on an audio forum I frequent have used them with barely any issues. When there were issues, Behringers customer service has been spot on from what I hear. Much better than fanatec put it that way.

The fans are noisy but are easily swapped for silent ones (standard 80mm PC casefan, I used Arctic F8s, £6 each), it took me all of 15 minutes.

Also that back and forth conversion, how does it affect quality of the signal and the latency?

Not at all. 15-20 years ago this might have been a legitimate concern, not these days. It's a solved problem.

Still don't hear a single reasonable explanation why in your opinion DSP in the amp is superior to software solution operating in original digital domain in the context of our specific application.

I know you didn't ask me, but I'm giving my opinion (from experience) anyway. Whether DSP is implemented in the amp or in software makes no difference to the output sound/tactile sensation. The only difference is the software type is often easier to interact with and saves money because it is free, DSP versions of amps cost a slight premium over non-DSP versions. Otherwise it makes no difference.

 

[FusionJohn]

This has to do with impedance and power. The info on the Reckhorn is scant and mostly in german, but from what I can tell it can handle 100W and has impendance of 4 ohms. NX3000D can handle 2 ohm per channel so you can wire them in parallel to one of the amp channels. However the amp can put out way more power than these Reckhorns can take (even with two connected sharing power), you will need to use the limiters built in to the amp to limit the power to the Reckhorns or you will overpower them.

I’ve seen the Reckhorns spec’d at 100w rms and 200w peak for some milliseconds. Either way I will limit them once I figure out the DSP. Should I connect in Parallel or Series? That would increase ohms. What about placement? I was thinking the LFE on the seat rails (up on rubber isolators) and the 2 Reckhorns on the pedal plate (also rubber isolators). Is this a decent mounting configuration?

 

[Ormy]

I’ve seen the Reckhorns spec’d at 100w rms and 200w peak for some milliseconds. Either way I will limit them once I figure out the DSP. Should I connect in Parallel or Series? That would increase ohms. What about placement? I was thinking the LFE on the seat rails (up on rubber isolators) and the 2 Reckhorns on the pedal plate (also rubber isolators). Is this a decent mounting configuration?

Connect in parallel means the amp will see a 2ohm load, that amp can handle 2ohm per channel, the lower the impedance the more power you will get. If you wired them in series that would present an 8ohm load to the amp, it would work but the amp might not be able to deliver enough power to an 8ohm load, you'd just be wasting the capability of the gear.

Go with parallel but make sure you use the limiter and set it correctly before you connect anything to the output.

Set the limiter to 200Wrms or 400W peak (I can't remember if you specify peak or rms power in the limiter function).

In terms of placement, sorry I can't help with that, I have no idea. All I can say is try as many configurations as you can, trial and error and patience are key to getting the most out of any hardware like this. Don't do anything permanent, every few days you'll get an idea for a new placement configuration you'll want to try.

 

[Kieran527]

That's cool, just wanted to point out that people might be getting wrong impression that they can get any amp they want as long as it's DSP Behringer.
There are other good and better options, including often overlooked SMSL SA 98E, that would work wonderfully for smaller transducers like Rechon and Aurasound with lots of headroom to spare.

DSP related stuff, again my own experience and feedback I got from people I know, that most just don't bother with that. Most small transducers work out of the box without need for any fine tuning, I understand what you are saying about BK Mini LFE piston pang, experienced that myself, in my opinion it's just bad design, but I've seen some mods taking care of that and for myself was able to get rid of it by just cantilevering them on these supports, reason BK most popular Gamer2 model comes with that springy mounting arm.
Plus there is always software DSP option, as we can set high/low pass filter, frequency range, gain, and to which channel individual generated effect goes in SimHub and to some degree in SimVibe, and if ever needed can use additional EQ option in soundcard or in that APO software you mentioned.

And for examples of other options for bigger transducers, I use this Crown XLS-1002 for BK Mini LFE, it's quiet as fan only kicks in when it gets overheated (which is almost never), but that just one example, I am sure there are better, or cheaper options including multi channel ones like Emotiva and such.

do the Sim-Lab bk mini life brackets bolt to the bottom of the seat side mount bracket? So no physical contact to the bottom of the seat, just cantileveredfrom the base of the side mount?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

do the Sim-Lab bk mini life brackets bolt to the bottom of the seat side mount bracket? So no physical contact to the bottom of the seat, just cantileveredfrom the base of the side mount?

You can do that if the seat mounts are suspended on isolators, mine are at the bottom of the seat.

 

[Mr Latte]

US Amazon prices:
Behringer NX100D - $369.99
Crown XLS1002 - $289.00
SMSL SA-98E - $110.99

Yes but perhaps you should compare the XLS1502 to the NX1000D not your XLS1002
As the specs then are more impressive, even though the DSP on the Behringer is superior to what is on the XLS series, its still only a bit cheaper.

In the UK XLS1002 is £50 more expensive than the NX1000D the XLS1502 is £122 more.
I dont see many people in forums in UK/EU using Crown for tactile.

I can't say how many in your region buy the Crown models over the Behringer.
Im willing to expect the best selling model is the NX3000D. Now go compare the price of those and the specs. Again in the UK the NX3000D is only £235 and the Crown XLS1502 £322 with Crown XLS1002 £248


Crown XLS1002
Power: 2x 550 Watt / 2 Ohm, 2x 350 Watt / 4 Ohm, 2x 215 Watt / 8 Ohm, bridged 1x 1100 Watt / 4 Ohm, bridged 1x 700 Watt / 8 Ohm

Crown XLS1502
Power rating: 2x 775 W/ 2 Ohm, 2x 525 Watt/ 4 Ohm, 2x 300 W/ 8 Ohm, bridged 1x 1550 W/ 4 Ohm, bridged 1x 1050 W/ 8 Ohm

Behringer NX3000D
Power: 2x 900 W at 4 Ωs, 2x 1500 W at 2 Ωs

You then find the Behringer NX3000D has not only got better specs and the better DSP as well as competitive price. It is imho the best amp for the money for tactile and based on its specs/value why it is the amp I typically recommend.

Not because it is a Behringer.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Yes but perhaps you should compare the XLS1502 to the NX1000D not your XLS1002
As the specs then are more comparable, even though the DSP on the Behringer is superior to what is on the XLS series, its still a bit cheaper.

Which specs do you compare, wattage, at what Ohm?
XLS1002 has 350W at 4 Ohm
NX1000D 300W at 4 Ohm

 

[Mr Latte]

See the finshed response, I got called away for coffee...

 

[Kieran527]

You can do that if the seat mounts are suspended on isolators, mine are at the bottom of the seat.

So you bolt the adapter plates to the bottom of the seat instead of the bk?

my bk minis feel artificial, and they’re bolted to the bottom of the seat currently, this plate mounting might be an option

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Cantilever plates are bolted to the bottom of the seat, technically to the plate bolted to the bottom of the seat, that seems to works, and I don't use isolators. May try to explore that later but I am already 99% satisfied with what I get out. BK Mini LFE are finicky to setup and drive, I also have a pair of AuraSound AST-2B-4 Pro, they are much better for plug and play setup, no piston pang, less power hungry and more consistent response across the frequency range.

 

[Kieran527]

Cantilever plates are bolted to the bottom of the seat, technically to the plate bolted to the bottom of the seat, that seems to works, and I don't use isolators. May try to explore that later but I am already 99% satisfied with what I get out. BK Mini LFE are finicky to setup and drive, I also have a pair of AuraSound AST-2B-4 Pro, they are much better for plug and play setup, no piston pang, less power hungry and more consistent response across the frequency range.

My seat is side mounted, so options are reduced for my set up then.
I'll keep looking at alternatives and set up to reduce the artificial feeling.

 

[v73410]

@ Andrew_WOT Can you show your bass shaker mounting ?
Thank's

 

[Cote Dazur]

What is a "DSP", what does it do? Why would we need it for tactile?

Edit 1: Is SimHub a DSP?

 

[Mr Latte]

While not specific to the usage case scenario with tactile this helps illustrate different ways it is used to control audio.

 

[Mr Latte]

Cantilever plates are bolted to the bottom of the seat, technically to the plate bolted to the bottom of the seat, that seems to works, and I don't use isolators. May try to explore that later but I am already 99% satisfied with what I get out. BK Mini LFE are finicky to setup and drive, I also have a pair of AuraSound AST-2B-4 Pro, they are much better for plug and play setup, no piston pang, less power hungry and more consistent response across the frequency range.

So simple question, why have you still got Piston Pang issues?
Cant, you just use your awesome Crown amp you recommend over Chinese made Behringers and Just fix the issues with the BK to enjoy them with no piston pang?

Do you know how amusing that is Andrew?
You are the person who after several years is still putting down Behringer amps and usage of DSP.

Many Moons Ago:
This post is 3 and 1/2 years old. Even though at the time we were still using Simvibe it shows how easy it is to reduce or remove piston pang on the BK mini or BK Gamer units. We can apply the same approach to the bigger BK units but these may need slightly different settings to remedy the issue. We just want the (width of the notch (Q) to be enough to prevent the problem without it removing felt sensations that much. BK units have a "FS" rating of 12Hz. This is when the units' own generated vibrations can resonate with its casing.

Software-based DSP would also work as all that is needed is to create a "notch" that reduces the "amplitude" of certain frequencies which have a tendency to peak. You might find issues at @12Hz @24Hz and @36Hz but you can see this in the videos a guy posted long ago on Youtube in the linked thread.

No need for silly modifications of the units casing, no need for foam/sponge inserts.

 

[Cote Dazur]

While not specific to the usage case scenario with tactile this helps illustrate different ways it is used to control audio.

Thank you for the reply, so when using SimHub no need for DSP, as each effect can be tailored in SimHub?

 

[Mr Latte]

Thank you for the reply, so when using SimHub no need for DSP, as each effect can be tailored in SimHub?

Err no, I was referring that the video was not specific to using DSP in how we are using it.
A few responses back I gave several scenarios how DSP can be used to improve tactile.

In the most simplest terms, it gives us more control of how our units perform.
We can tailor how individual frequencies operate and what frequenices only get generated.

Simhub generates tones, but it is natural in the way audio works that from those tones, harmonics are also naturally generated.
So the settings you use in Simhub for effects are not the only frequencies that are generated and going to the transducers.
Using DSP features is one way to control this.

 

[Cote Dazur]

So the settings you use in Simhub for effects are not the only frequencies that are generated and going to the transducers.

I trust what you are writing, but it is my understanding that if I set a road effect setting in SimHub to 45hz,it is what will be send to my transducer. Is it not?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I trust what you are writing, but it is my understanding that if I set a road effect setting in SimHub to 45hz,it is what will be send to my transducer. Is it not?

Looks like It is, out of curiosity I hooked up Analyzer to Simhub output.
This is Wheels Lock effect at 50hz as set in Simhub.

At least to my eyes SimHub tone generator functions as designed.