Season 8 Race MONTREAL '79 Incident Report

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Should've said anything, now you turn against me.. I'm just offering ONE defending post to this subject. Jonas did not slow down so it's not 100% Kimmos fault. I would put it to 75/25. You just got to slowdown enough if there's trouble ahead and Kimmos donut was off by 1 second, there is not much you can do in that position. Two poor decisions and the major fault is Kimmos, no doubt. But Jonas is not out clean too plus the way this was handled was poor by both parties.

 

[David Turnbull]

wow ive turned against you?

where the hell have you got that from? i only gave my opinion to your post, not once have i said anything against you or about you.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

wow ive turned against you?

where the hell have you got that from? i only gave my opinion to your post, not once have i said anything against you or about you.

Don't take it so seriously... I just hoped that the same would not happen to me and by me defending i will not get a bad rep for talking out.

 

[David Turnbull]

the same wouldnt happen to any of us kennett, youve been around a short while, you understand that we do race reports and incident reports, the aim is to resolve incidents, each party gives their explanation then hopefully it can be resolved by others giving their input and the guilty parties agreeing that it either couldve been avoided or one is to blame by wreckless driving.

your not likley to get a bad rep for talking out, its a discussion, i dont see where you get i turn against you though, im not against anyone, even kimmo but he made 4 posts where he was either blaming jonas or calling other members blind and saying he doesnt want to discuss it anymore because its not serious, the point is wether its serious or not, jonas brought it up so kimmo couldve at least discussed it with him instead of asking for penalties and the like.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

I do feel a bit of shame when my team mate is handling things like this but i'm also obliged to defend him.

 

[David Turnbull]

to be honest im not intrested in defending any of them, i only gave input to the incident itself and kimmos posts.

but i understand your situtaion

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Its fine to talk about things on forums and looking boths sides is often a good idea Kennett dont feel bad, If you watch Jonas clip you will see he lifts and slows and moves to the right off racing line to aviod as soon he sees kimmos car ontrack, i wouldnt be looking at map unless yellow flags. I see this as Jonus tryin to aviod incident as best he can, Kimmo when spins out corrects car in middle of track and as soon as he spins. So my view is its easier avioded if Kimmo did something different than Jonas.
Its just a matter of circumstances that if done slightly different you both would have managed to have missed the incident. Not like Kimmos driving is bad just his choice of where to correct and when he did it. Its also not like its a blame game and its all Kimmos fault its just not the best time and place to correct your car so the best thing we can learn from is always taking extra care and checking when correcting car.
I myself have been car spinning and hit someone and also on recieving end in the past, so i was just trying to pass on what ive learnt throught the learn by doing method . I just dont take it so serious and like to learn and move onto next than dwell on racing incidents, that when its clearly a accident and not like anyone has deliberatly tried to ruin someones race. I see no reason for kimmo to quit.
There will always be accidents its how we react to them.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Thanks. One thing is sure, Kimmo won't be sharing a pitbox with me anytime soon but i reserved my critiques to more private surroundings.

This incident just shows the ineffectiveness of the ingame yellow flag.. With a proper yellow flagging these incidents wouldn't happen but there isn't a proper system in place so we must just trust the Lady Fortuna a lot. It's very hard to turn the car around when cars are going left and right, as a driver i'm getting more scared by every second i'm blocking the racingline. I'm not sure how is Yellows handled here but when there's a car blocking the route i will expect oncoming cars to either slow down or choose the safe path themselves, i f they risk it and try to make it with full (or near to full) speeds, then it's his fault if there is an accident. Also Montreal is a hard place as it is a street-track and there no places off-road to drive to.

Luckily we see these incidents next time in Monaco, maybe we'll return to this topic then.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Oh, one thing came to my mind, not an incident and not bad as it was inSilverstone but chatting while cars are still on track is in my books very bad behaviour, worthy of penalty and not excusable in anyway.. This time most of the cars managed to get cross the line but there were maybe three cars still on track when the compulsory "Grats podium" started to emerge...

As i'm often in the back i see this a lot where i need to start avoiding yellow text in top of the screen and as i'm a literary person, fast reader/writer, just a look in that direction and i'll register the written message. I can't help myself and keeping my eyes away from them is almost as bad. So, please, next time, before chatting, check who's on track still and make your decision.. RD policy is very strict in this matter but as such, it's too strict.. When there's one guys still on track that was about to be lapped but managed to cross the line just before leader finished, use your own judgement: everytime your chatting can influence the race results, don't hit enter.

I particularly looked into this issue since i DNF in the last stint and remembered what i saw in Silverstone. Really, not bad this time, maybe three chats came before midpack was fully finished and couple of more before the tail crossed the line. The last car got some yellow spam but he was so far off that even crashing in the last lap would've not changed the results.

 

[Reik Major]

No incidents to report

I just had one strange moment when lapping Vale something around lap 25 or so (TS 2048). Checking replay and asking Vale after the race in chat, it looks like it was a strange sync issue which only affected me but not Vale (so all good ). In the moment of lapping him between 2nd and 3rd chicane, his car suddenly appeared stationary infront of me for a split second and later jumped away to where he really was.
It felt like having a slight contact, because there was very little smoke and sparcs visible. Afterwards the car felt slightly different (also in FFB) but my crew didn't say anything. I was in doubt because it didn't handle that bad but different so I got wide in some turns without doing anything wrong. Especially when braking for the final hairpin, the car suddenly became instable and I went wide again when catching it
This moment i decided to pit for repairs and fresh tyres only. The crew didn't need extra time for repairs but after the stop the car was perfect again. Could it have been some slight damage to a tyre???

I try to make a vid of this situation asap (I hope to find the time though)...

Here's the video. In real life speed it felt even closer and some visual effects from a contact appeared...

 

[Bob Laube]

No incidents to report

No incidents that I am aware of.

However, I had a really odd lag/ spike very close to the end of the race. I thought I saw someones car flash [appear then disappear] in front of me right before the second chicane. i do hope nothing damaging occurred to whomever that may have been.

Edit: I believe it was Bob Laube, but fortunately there was no apparent contact or damage. The Server replay will tell the story. I hope that i didn't scare you there Bob ~ lap 53... I was fearful at the time of the Aussie Internet lag spike

I am very sorry, Peter
i hope nothing is happen
see race report

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

It's not about if it was 100 kph or 300 kph. Maybe Nico just used this exaggeration to express that you allways come fast around a corner with a F1 so it's hard to avoid a stationary car.

Acctually Nico was mistaken, for some reason he was thinking it happened in the exit of the first or second chicane Anyways, I understand now that the speed was lower than I thought, but that changes little of what I said.

To be honest Im not sure whats the right reaction in this case.
I think its a good solution to talk about incidents but without being disrespectful, 1st I think its obvious that I cant learn anything from this incident to improve in similar situations because Im not spiderman and 2nd I have the feeling that Kimmo is not really willing to talk.
However if someone has some piece of advise Im always open to hear it.

I just want to say that I see big safety problem for future races if kimmo is neither willing to talk nor willing to see a mistake

I think you have handled the situation 100% according to "the PrestoGP way". Reading this discussion earlier I thought to myself, it would be interesting to see the situation onboard from Jonas' view, and what do you know, moments later you post the video! So perfect work Jonas! EDIT: I agree with Kennett that your first post was not perfect, I would have avoided using words like respectless as that immediatly sets the tone of the arguement. But that is minor stuff and I can understand that you were provoked (but next time, be strong my friend and keep it friendly, then this post would probably be much shorter )

Kennett:
In a way I was thrilled when I read this thread, because every post (except Kimmo's) more or less reflected my own thoughts. And that is what we have always been working towards, to have the same idea of how to race, what to do and not do in different situations etc, or in short, be in sync. There, when I came to your post I was a bit shocked. Not so much by the fact that you defended Kimmo, but rather your conviction that this incident was 50/50 and that you believe that everybody else are wrong.

I think one of the core problems behind this dispute is that I believe for all league members (with the exception of you and Kimmo) it is obvious that this could not have been avoided by Jonas, and after watching the onboard cam of Jonas I am convinced. Remember, many of us have a lot of sim league racing experience and we know what we are talking about. This has nothing to do that one driver is Jonas and the other is Kimmo, it is what we see in the videos combined with our experience.
And we all know it is important that everybody are in sync, so seeing Kimmo arguing against the flow is a worry sign.

So I guess my point is, what you see as everybody turning against Kimmo is rather all league members reaching the same conclusions after watching the videos and reading the post; this could only have been avoided by Kimmo. And now I would like to quote a wise man:

Just to be clear, the crash could also have happend with your best intentions to avoid it. So it would have been a race incident which we wouldn't need to discuss that much.

We are all allowed to make mistakes, but then we are expected to deal with it constructively and in the way that is required. It is a golden rule at PrestoGP that all incidents with other cars much be reported and dealt with constructively.

To sum up:
-We see Kimmo make a post where no incident with other car has happened, no probs so far
-We see a post of Jonas with a video that for all (save you and Kimmo) shows an incident where it seems very unlikely that Jonas can avoid it, a clear incident that should have been mentioned by Kimmo.
-When Kimmo responds he seems (for us) to have a very strage analysis of the incident,
-It is then correct of other members to interfere and tell Kimmo constrctively what he is doing wrong.
-I agree with all that is said by everyone, except that I would have toned down Jonas' first post slightly (but no biggie) and obviously David's temper is, well, as it seems impossible to control I guess "we" have decided to see it as colourful (No offense David)

Kimmo:
I guess all the above stuff sais it all. You have said you will leave the league and that is probably the best solution. I understand that you have a different view of the incident, but please believe me when I say that nobody were out to "get you", they just all happend to disagree with you. In such situations it is a good idea to look at the situation in perspective and ask yourself, am I correct and 10 others wrong or vise versa?

 

[Kimmo Kokkonen]

Hello

report: I knew all the time where Jonas Lex and others drove behind me so I knew that I have time to turn my car if guys behind me are wake up as they should. Think what you want but Jonas did not know that my car was there and that's blind driving and it's not safe way to drive with these monster cars because you just don't have time to react if you don't follow all the cars all the time. It's like a traffic but 100 times faster.

Also note that all my words earlier today belongs to Jonas not ever said that Reik or Davis is blind no way

Thanks!

 

[Jonas Lex]

Before I forget it, I have to report an incident with Eliezer in Lap 12 before the hairpin I missed the braking point a bit and bumped into Eliezer, fortunately he didnt spun but he lost some time there and hopefully no susp damage.
Sorry again mate.

 

[Peter Marshall]

I managed to screw up start just touching grass and thought about reaching for esc but i manage to get back off track and out of the way but looking at replay it maybe made Peter and Valter reach at the start sorry guys

This made me re-check my replay. Thank you Sean.

I haven't seen the server replay yet, but that doesn't matter. What is important is that it appears as though I messed up at the race start and pushed my very good racing buddy Valter at the start of Turn 2.

I am so very sorry Valter. I truely had no idea I'd pushed your car at the time and of course my replay shows your car "bouncing" off my invisible force field. I never felt the collsion and I and ashamed for not correcting this earlier.

I will find a way to make amends for my bullish start Valter; perhaps in Australia we can do battle the right way.

Naturally I hope you had no damage and that there will never be any ill feelings.

No incidents to report
I am very sorry, Peter
i hope nothing is happen
see race report

All good Bob. I was very fearful that I had wrecked your car on the second last lap. I didn't know who it was at the time only that it was a "ghost in the machine" type tech-bug.

 

[Eliezer Bartik]

Hello

report: I knew all the time where Jonas Lex and others drove behind me so I knew that I have time to turn my car if guys behind me are wake up as they should. Think what you want but Jonas did not know that my car was there and that's blind driving and it's not safe way to drive with these monster cars because you just don't have time to react if you don't follow all the cars all the time. It's like a traffic but 100 times faster.

Also note that all my words earlier today belongs to Jonas not ever said that Reik or Davis is blind no way

Thanks!

Kimmo If 20 drivers saying its your fault on the incident so its your fault, get the conclusions !!!

NP Jonas

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I have edited it so often and put down so much time so I'll post it again here, it is the same as my previous post above:

It's not about if it was 100 kph or 300 kph. Maybe Nico just used this exaggeration to express that you allways come fast around a corner with a F1 so it's hard to avoid a stationary car.

Acctually Nico was mistaken, for some reason he was thinking it happened in the exit of the first or second chicane Anyways, I understand now that the speed was lower than I thought, but that changes little of what I said.

To be honest Im not sure whats the right reaction in this case.
I think its a good solution to talk about incidents but without being disrespectful, 1st I think its obvious that I cant learn anything from this incident to improve in similar situations because Im not spiderman and 2nd I have the feeling that Kimmo is not really willing to talk.
However if someone has some piece of advise Im always open to hear it.

I just want to say that I see big safety problem for future races if kimmo is neither willing to talk nor willing to see a mistake

I think you have handled the situation 100% according to "the PrestoGP way". Reading this discussion earlier I thought to myself, it would be interesting to see the situation onboard from Jonas' view, and what do you know, moments later you post the video! So perfect work Jonas! EDIT: I agree with Kennett that your first post was not perfect, I would have avoided using words like respectless as that immediatly sets the tone of the arguement. But that is minor stuff and I can understand that you were provoked (but next time, be strong my friend and keep it friendly, then this post would probably be much shorter )

Kennett:
In a way I was thrilled when I read this thread, because every post (except Kimmo's) more or less reflected my own thoughts. And that is what we have always been working towards, to have the same idea of how to race, what to do and not do in different situations etc, or in short, be in sync. There, when I came to your post I was a bit shocked. Not so much by the fact that you defended Kimmo, but rather your conviction that this incident was 50/50 and that you believe that everybody else are wrong.

I think one of the core problems behind this dispute is that I believe for all league members (with the exception of you and Kimmo) it is obvious that this could not have been avoided by Jonas, and after watching the onboard cam of Jonas I am convinced. Remember, many of us have a lot of sim league racing experience and we know what we are talking about. This has nothing to do that one driver is Jonas and the other is Kimmo, it is what we see in the videos combined with our experience.
And we all know it is important that everybody are in sync, so seeing Kimmo arguing against the flow is a worry sign.

So I guess my point is, what you see as everybody turning against Kimmo is rather all league members reaching the same conclusions after watching the videos and reading the post; this could only have been avoided by Kimmo. And now I would like to quote a wise man:

Just to be clear, the crash could also have happend with your best intentions to avoid it. So it would have been a race incident which we wouldn't need to discuss that much.

We are all allowed to make mistakes, but then we are expected to deal with it constructively and in the way that is required. It is a golden rule at PrestoGP that all incidents with other cars much be reported and dealt with constructively.

To sum up:
-We see Kimmo make a post where no incident with other car has happened, no probs so far
-We see a post of Jonas with a video that for all (save you and Kimmo) shows an incident where it seems very unlikely that Jonas can avoid it, a clear incident that should have been mentioned by Kimmo.
-When Kimmo responds he seems (for us) to have a very strage analysis of the incident,
-It is then correct of other members to interfere and tell Kimmo constrctively what he is doing wrong.
-I agree with all that is said by everyone, except that I would have toned down Jonas' first post slightly (but no biggie) and obviously David's temper is, well, as it seems impossible to control I guess "we" have decided to see it as colourful (No offense David)

Kimmo:
I guess all the above stuff sais it all. You have said you will leave the league and that is probably the best solution. I understand that you have a different view of the incident, but please believe me when I say that nobody were out to "get you", they just all happend to disagree with you. In such situations it is a good idea to look at the situation in perspective and ask yourself, am I correct and 10 others wrong or vise versa?

 

[Tim McIver]

No incidents to report (though I'm about to check replay more thoroughly)

 

[Tim McIver]

I will add my 2 cents worth...

I agree with everything Nico has said. I think this incident was 100% Kimmos fault. I find the attitude of Kimmo very strange. The only point I perhaps disagree with Nico on is that I think David managed his temper well in this case!!! I felt quite angry reading the thread and held back for a day, especially as Peter had already expressed the feelings of the group early on.

This incident could have been resolved very quickly if Kimmo had immediately posted to the forum apologising for his crazy move and telling us that he has learned a valuable lesson at the expense of Jonas. The spin was Kimmos first mistake, the correction was his second, the attitude was his third. If blame is to be apportioned, it can only be split up between those three.

I'm firmly of the opinion that Kimmo should be allowed to stay if he can come to understand that he was at fault and make a proper apology to Jonas. Perhaps Kimmo is too old for Presto? How old are you Kimmo? How old do you think Presto is?

Kennett, I agree we need to be careful of Chat before people have finished there race. I didn't notice any early chat this time, I was monitoring the rest of the race to see how people finished. It might be worth politely mentioning who it was that congratsed early? You do also need to come to terms with the fact that we do not do penalties, it's not something we do. We also have great respect for RD and are happy to submit to all its rules, but in the end Presto is a league of gentlemen, if there's a problem, we chat about it right here and we fix it. It's good to have you along, it's good you have strong opinions, keep them coming, you would do well to avoid picking fights with David though! (as stated earlier, I'm totally with David today!!!)

Tim.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

First of all, when I wrote my long post I had not seen the maybe 15 last messeges, the last one I had read was Kennett's long post. And I would like to add, there is nothing wrong in expressing your opinion.

Also, I would like to point out that it is my impression that it was too short from when I noticed the smoke in Jonas' onboard video to have time to react (for those who claim he should at least have slowed down when he saw the smoke, I noticed it less than a second before impact.

The only point I perhaps disagree with Nico on is that I think David managed his temper well in this case!!! I felt quite angry reading the thread and held back for a day, especially as Peter had already expressed the feelings of the group early on.

I am inclined to agree with you. First of all I described the glass as half empty and not half full, and second of all when reading it again I am thinking this is more a cultural thing, that they are a bit "harder" in the language than soft scandinavians, and perhaps that is why Kennett also felt David was "attacking him" (although Kennett is not Scandinavian I believe )