RFactor 2’S new Demo Belies True / Dismal State of Historic Content

[Kevin Knorpp]

No going to make many friends with this one but it's true

With the release of build 1080, ISI has updated the demo to include the Formula Renault 3.5, the Howston Dissenter (AKA Maverick) and Toban Raceway Park.

Now, this is really great news for anyone not already owning rFactor 2, because the Dissenter + Toban alone is like an entire game in itself ; given Toban’s SEVEN layouts.

So, what’s the problem? Well, as a GAME demo, this couldn’t be any more inaccurate, because the truth is that most of the historic vehicles in rFactor 2 are in terrible shape ; so bad, in fact, that Tim Wheatley recommended Empty Box drive something other than the Spark F1 vehicle when Empty Box demonstrated a random collision with something invisible in the middle of the road at historic Spa.

So, in effect, ISI is putting out a demo of a new vehicle at the same time as telling people not to drive one of the other historic vehicles. At best, it’s unintentionally misleading. At worst, an outright lie.

Now as a TECH demo, I’m fine with it because TECH demos show POTENTIAL.

Now, if you don’t already own rFactor 2…

GO GET THE DEMO NOW BEFORE ISI CHANGES THEIR MIND!!!!…
… but don’t buy the game based on it​

 

[Marc Collins]

I am sure at some point (given ISI's slow pace) all the old historics will get updated just like every other car in their stable. I don't think that has any direct connection to the demo.

It would be misleading if they included the licenced Brabham and led people to believe there was a whole "modernized GPL" in there if you buy.

People are generally reporting satisfaction with the FFB on the Dissenter. People are generally quite pleased with Toban quality. Toban is an amazing track for demonstrating physics of cars. I always used the long variation as my test track in rf1 and subsequent.

I can't say there is much controversy here.

 

[Miroslav Davidovic]

Oh yeah, how can they only? What have they thought to release a demo...for free? And how can they just change the conntent all the time with the latest releases? And even offer an refund after all?

I mean really.....dude was right. "There are only two infinite things....."

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

most of the historic vehicles in rFactor 2 are in terrible shape

What is the problem? Aren't they the same as before?

Empty Box demonstrated a random collision with something invisible

Source?

 

[Kevin Knorpp]

What is the problem? Aren't they the same as before?
Source?

Don't understand any of these questions. Source is Empty Box so you can ask him or Tim Wheatley or anyone in ISI forums. Empty reported the issue on historic spa in Spark F1 and Tim Wheatley told him to use the Brabham instead to which Empty replied that Brabham wasn't fast enough. Why would I make that up?

 

[Deleted member 130869]

What is the problem? Aren't they the same as before?

Source?

This I remember well because it had come up before a build update came out, where he had this issue. He was driving a car and (likely) there was an object, one of those little sticks by the road, that got knocked onto the road. But as you see in the game, collidable objects stay frozen in time and sometimes get stuck on the road or just floating on air. I can't speak to whether the object had gone partially underground but perhaps it had been on the road, but when viewed through a loaded replay, it simply isn't visible anymore... thus raising the question at the time about the car. Thus raising that response by Tim. All that took place before I had seen anything to be able to chime in with the above.

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

Don't understand any of these questions.

The cars are the same since their release. I don't understand why they are in a terrible state all of a sudden?

Why would I make that up?

Don't know if you make it up?
If you make an article. It's best to link to the source. The video would nice too.

 

[Kevin Knorpp]

Gijs, I know not what you are getting at with the challenges. Are you trying to play watchdog or something?

Let me have a turn and ask you are you familiar with the rF2 historic vehicles? If not, maybe you should give people who are familiar the benefit of the doubt instead of just blindly challenging with random suspicious questions.

Here is my final response to you on the issue:

There are many reasons the historic vehicles are worse than they were when released (aside from also being broken on release like Howstons which you would know already had you any awareness). I will give you the following and then I am done defending.

1) As time passes content becomes outdated, even if nothing changes with engine, this is obvious to any sim racer and is why devs and modders regularly touch up content

2) Things HAVE changed with engine (a) like whatever changed to prompt Tim to recommend not driving Sparks to Empty (b) CPM (c) non-CPM changes requiring vehicle updates such as steering rack, wet tires etc for example

Like I said anyone who has used rF2 over the last several years would know this so you are either being disingenuous with your challenges or are simple ignorant in either case you should find something better to do or find a better watch dog

 

[JeffL]

Gijs is probably one of the nicest, helpful and most knowledgeable people here at RD, him and David P. O reily will jump and help whenever you have any questions with RF2, Be nice bro.

 

[Kevin Knorpp]

This is my final comment in this thread unless anyone has something constructive to say or genuine to ask. There is nothing personal about any of my posts in this thread. I had no problems with Gijs before this thread and will have no problems with him after this thread. And I have no problem with Gijs personally in this thread, either. All of my comments are about his comments and nothing else and would be the same regardless of whether Gijs said them or anyone else said them.

I am, however, growing tired of typing so like I said if anyone has anything useful to contribute I'm all ears.

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

There are many reasons the historic vehicles are worse than they were when released (aside from also being broken on release like Howstons which you would know already had you any awareness). I will give you the following and then I am done defending.

1) As time passes content becomes outdated, even if nothing changes with engine, this is obvious to any sim racer and is why devs and modders regularly touch up content

2) Things HAVE changed with engine (a) like whatever changed to prompt Tim to recommend not driving Sparks to Empty (b) CPM (c) non-CPM changes requiring vehicle updates such as steering rack, wet tires etc for example

Like I said anyone who has used rF2 over the last several years would know this so you are either being disingenuous with your challenges or are simple ignorant in either case you should find something better to do or find a better watch dog

It seems like you haven't bothered to drive the historics much. The historic F2's and F3's are somewhat outdated, rest of the content is very good. Brabham, AC Cobra, Panoz, Howston Dissenter, Howston G4, Howston G6: that's six cars that are all very good and drivable. If you think that CPM somehow invalidates the driving experience of older rF2 cars, then you have no idea about what CPM actually does. It was introduced just because tire behaviour during certain extreme slip and load situations (mostly a problem with oval stock cars) was not fully realistic.

Anyway, even if they were broken like you stated, it would make no difference. ISI is allowed to demo exactly what content they like, it only makes sense to put the latest and best stuff in the demo. It's called marketing and ISI for once is doing the right move, usually they don't seem very good at marketing.

 

[Kevin Knorpp]

Re-post from blog:

Professional Sim Racing's Commitment to Credible, Interesting and Useful Sim Racing Insights

Just want to renew / repeat my commitment to content that is credible, interesting and useful. Two things motivate me more than anything else to do what I do.

The first is sharing knowledge, especially about things I wish I had known sooner as a sim racer. Like sim racing, this can be both challenging and rewarding because it is not always easy to illustrate concepts, especially such things as the magic that unfolds over time with skill development.

The other is searching for, discovering and defending the truth. Believe me, I am a very busy person with many IRL responsibilities and won't waste my time with anything but the best possible understanding of the truth.

For whatever reason, the few days have generated a disproportionate degree of

• skepticism which has been clearly based on insincerity and/or ignorance (example)
• complete misreading or deliberate misinterpretation of my posts (example)

And you will find that at times I will inpatient, especially with anything appearing to cryptic, snarky, sarcastic, disingenuous, random or simply unfounded ; especially when I end up typing more words defending what I say than saying the initial words.

Too bad, because my ability to babysit is finite while the Internet has an infinite supply of babies.

Anyone with a sincere question or has evidence to support a claim will see one of two things out of me (1) high levels of energy to explore and reach some truth or understanding or (2) an unconditional acknowledgement that I was wrong (to be quite honest, nothing satisfies me more than learning something new ; even when it means I was wrong)

Anyway, like I said, too much typing this week so will end by saying that my commitment to credible, interesting and useful applies to anything I write anywhere under any of these names:

• Professionalsimracing.com (this site and Reiza username)
• P.S.R. (YouTube / Google)
• Kev (Disqus)
• Kevin Knorpp (Race Department)

All mature and reasonable challenges are welcome.

 

[Kevin Knorpp]

It seems like you haven't bothered to drive the historics much. The historic F2's and F3's are somewhat outdated, rest of the content is very good. Brabham, AC Cobra, Panoz, Howston Dissenter, Howston G4, Howston G6: that's six cars that are all very good and drivable. If you think that CPM somehow invalidates the driving experience of older rF2 cars, then you have no idea about what CPM actually does. It was introduced just because tire behaviour during certain extreme slip and load situations (mostly a problem with oval stock cars) was not fully realistic.

Anyway, even if they were broken like you stated, it would make no difference. ISI is allowed to demo exactly what content they like, it only makes sense to put the latest and best stuff in the demo. It's called marketing and ISI for once is doing the right move, usually they don't seem very good at marketing.

I can see where my day is headed (Not your fault as it just builds up across different issues and forums.)

Regarding my familiarity/credibility with historic rF2 content, I'll just suggest that you ask around.

Regarding the state of rF2 historic content I have already explained myself and will not address any "if you think...then you have no idea"-type comments. I said what I said and stand by what I said. If you have a question about what I said then ask. If you have a question about what I didn't say then ask yourself. If you have an opinion share it.

Listening to you guys one would think I am the only person that has a problem with rotting content in rFactor 2. That is simply untrue. If you don't like my reasoning, there are hundreds of other people you can ask. Or just say what you believe and feel good about it.

And, for the love of god, no one is saying ISI is not allowed to demo whatever they want. It's called marketing and yes I know what marketing is. And calling out the B.S. is (used to be?) called freedom of speech. Some even call it consumer advocacy.

Sorry guys I really need to get away from this topic before I do start saying things I regret. I'll be back tomorrow.

 

[Niki Đaković]

I see the moan-train has moved from Kunos' back onto ISI's now. The orginality of finding new ways to nit-pick is increasing the size of my pop-corn bawl.

 

[hitm4k3r]

I don't see any problem with the demo content. It shows just a part of the software and nothing more or less nor does it say that the rest of the content is as up to date as the Howsten Dissenter. If the Howsten Dissenter and Toban would not be in the full game, it would be false advertisement - other than that it is just what it is. A Demo. I find it a bit extreme to even complain about the Demo and it's content given the fact, that I don't know any other modern Sim that offers a free Demo and where content is changed on a regular base so that people basicly get alot of different opportunities to try stuff before they can buy it. Nor do I know any software developer who puts as much thought into the Demo itself with updating it and changing the content.

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

Regarding the state of rF2 historic content I have already explained myself and will not address any "if you think...then you have no idea"-type comments. I said what I said and stand by what I said. If you have a question about what I said then ask. If you have a question about what I didn't say then ask yourself. If you have an opinion share it.

Be specific about what the problems are then, because just saying the content is bad without pinpointing the issues gives the impression you haven't driven it. All open wheelers in Assetto Corsa (at least before patch 1.5) were using tire model v3 while GT cars had updated to v6. Does it means AC cheats us with outdated content because their open wheeler tire model is 3 revisions behind GT cars? Don't think so, it's just different update cycles for different type of content. Doesn't mean it's not drivable if it's old.

 

[Emery]

Kevin - Time to come race the Brabham at Tiger Moth

 

[Kevin Knorpp]

When?

 

[Emery]

About 2 hrs before you asked when. Normal time for TPG vintage races every other Sunday.

 

[Chris]

@Kevin Knorpp, I would strongly advise you to stop posting excerpts and links from your blog in a thinly veiled attempt to advertise it and stir people up here on RD.