RF2 4 months on + under/over steer + wildcard league entry

[jimortality]

I could've started 3 different threads but thought I would keep it all nice and neat. So yes, 4 months now since I really got into RF2 and I'm still loving every moment. I still get excited starting the game up and it's now at the point that i don't touch anything else because in my opinion, nothing else compares to it. The tyre feel, ffb, the tracks cars, it's got it all and I'm now comfortable with my graphic settings which to my eyes look as good as anything else out there. You may think I'm blinkered but I've been gaming since 1978 lol and this is the best virtual driving experience I've ever had so yes I am but I don't care. I've met great people who don't worry about my standard and are quick to help me. I'm not sure how much I've improved in the last 4 months but consistency is getting better.

Under/oversteer
Even after our bootcamp session I still struggle with getting setups sorted for myself and have to revert to getting them off my kind fellow drivers. I'm currently at work researching as I want to be able to do my own setups that feel right to me. I'm reading this at the moment http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/understeer.htm it's helpful but still confusing. I'll give you an example:
Skip Barber, I know this is a handful of a car but when I come to the corner entry, I turn the wheel and the front of the car spins off track. I'm limited to what I can control with the setup so obviously I need to adapt my driving style but this is understeer yes? but is it, is it the front spinning out or the back. To me it feels like the front wheels go. As you can see, I need a dummies guide but I think I'm learning it sometimes, maybe. could be lol

Finally, I wouldn't mind racing in some of the RF2 leagues but because of my work pattern I can't commit. Is there a chance of maybe getting a wildcard entry for a few races each season? I take part in as many club races as work allows but I need more experience of actual racing. Anyway that's it cheers for reading.

Jim

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

I understand where you are coming from. I have my first ever Skippy race on Thursday and for quite some laps I was stuck 2 seconds off the pace around Putnam Park, but I got it sorted after lots of frustration.
In the Skippy you a lot of factors play a much bigger role. Weight transfer is very important as well as smoothing it out. Modern GT cars can handle quick weight transfers, but the Skippy cannot. The gear during cornering is also very important. You can soften the rear of the car and take lower gears or stiffen it up and take higher gears, which is a lot less for giving as the throttle range mid corner is very low on case you're entry is a bit to fast.

 

[jimortality]

I understand where you are coming from. I have my first ever Skippy race on Thursday and for quite some laps I was stuck 2 seconds off the pace around Putnam Park, but I got it sorted after lots of frustration.
In the Skippy you a lot of factors play a much bigger role. Weight transfer is very important as well as smoothing it out. Modern GT cars can handle quick weight transfers, but the Skippy cannot. The gear during cornering is also very important. You can soften the rear of the car and take lower gears or stiffen it up and take higher gears, which is a lot less for giving as the throttle range mid corner is very low on case you're entry is a bit to fast.

Yes gearing is very important, I find if I change down to 2nd gear then I'm guaranteed to spin off so I end up mainly using 3 and 4 gear.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

Yes gearing is very important, I find if I change down to 2nd gear then I'm guaranteed to spin off so I end up mainly using 3 and 4 gear.

That again depens on your setup. With a really soft ARB I can take lower gears even more savely than the higher gear, but of course the initial turn in is better in the lower gear and I have more options mid corner, but with a stiff rear ARB (default or higher) the car turns to much and goes into turn in oversteer. I found the default rear ARB setting to be the most annoying as it isnt that consistent. With a stiff rear ARB I have predictable turn in oversteer, if I turn a bit harder. With a softer setting it goes mote towards understeer, but I hate to be in between both your natural corrections can be wrong a lot of the time when driving on the limit.

 

[jimortality]

That again depens on your setup. With a really soft ARB I can take lower gears even more savely than the higher gear, but of course the initial turn in is better in the lower gear and I have more options mid corner, but with a stiff rear ARB (default or higher) the car turns to much and goes into turn in oversteer. I found the default rear ARB setting to be the most annoying as it isnt that consistent. With a stiff rear ARB I have predictable turn in oversteer, if I turn a bit harder. With a softer setting it goes mote towards understeer, but I hate to be in between both your natural corrections can be wrong a lot of the time when driving on the limit.

I've not really done anything with arb yet but I think I would prefer the softer option so I can use the lower gears more.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

I've not really done anything with arb yet but I think I would prefer the softer option so I can use the lower gears more.

You should definetely play around with it especially more "extreme settings" (there are not so many settings). I could handle the car in a lot more predictable way with soft and hard rear ARB as I knew what to expect from the car. In the middle it could get a bit confusing for me

 

[jimortality]

You should definetely play around with it especially more "extreme settings" (there are not so many settings). I could handle the car in a lot more predictable way with soft and hard rear ARB as I knew what to expect from the car. In the middle it could get a bit confusing for me

Lol If it gets confusing for you, how do you think I feel!!!

 

[Mat Holloway]

Lot's of good advice in this thread.

Hopefully I can add some that will be helpful!
There are two common problems that I see with inexperienced drivers in this type of car. The first is a lack of understanding that grip is secondary in importance to weight transfer.

I find it helpful to think of skiing when driving such a car. Watching a skier come downhill through a slalom, no sudden movements, smooth and purposeful, gliding and swooshing through the turns, using his weight and his legs as suspension.

He has not much grip, but he knows how to move.

You are correct in staying in higher gears, primarily because the torque from the engine at low RPM is very good.

Consider a normal corner of 3 parts. Entry, apex and exit.
Many drivers dive deep on the brakes, hit the apex and drift out of the exit.
120 on entry, 100 on apex, 110 on exit.
I try to keep a higher corner speed average.
115 on entry, 115 on apex, 115 on exit.(never this perfect, but you get the point)

Now when I am comfortable lapping like this, I feel the importance of weight transfer. I am going much faster than I realised was possible just by balancing the car and not allowing large sudden changes, like a downshift or hard braking.

The second problem also relates to weight but in another way.
When you release the throttle in the skip barber, you need to understand that this is an extreme action. In other cars you drive have diff or suspension settings to compensate, the skip is setup this way to punish bad driving habits.

Much like when you are smooth on the brakes, squeezing that last %5 out of a corner, you must also be smooth off and on the throttle. Smooth and quick, that's the challenge.

Practice hard braking just before turn 1, feel the car and how it reacts.
Take turn 1 in 4th all the way, feel that weight.
Take it again in 4th but push harder until you are close to the edge of the track.
Feel that swoop as you go through, faster and faster.
Now take it in 3rd, you can feel the speed but also how it is more unbalanced, requiring faster input from you for corrections.

Hope this helps in some way!

 

[jimortality]

rFactor 2rFactor2 exe 03 09 2015 22 02 27 01:

Don't laugh lol

 

[jimortality]

Lot's of good advice in this thread.

Hopefully I can add some that will be helpful!
There are two common problems that I see with inexperienced drivers in this type of car. The first is a lack of understanding that grip is secondary in importance to weight transfer.

I find it helpful to think of skiing when driving such a car. Watching a skier come downhill through a slalom, no sudden movements, smooth and purposeful, gliding and swooshing through the turns, using his weight and his legs as suspension.

He has not much grip, but he knows how to move.

You are correct in staying in higher gears, primarily because the torque from the engine at low RPM is very good.

Consider a normal corner of 3 parts. Entry, apex and exit.
Many drivers dive deep on the brakes, hit the apex and drift out of the exit.
120 on entry, 100 on apex, 110 on exit.
I try to keep a higher corner speed average.
115 on entry, 115 on apex, 115 on exit.(never this perfect, but you get the point)

Now when I am comfortable lapping like this, I feel the importance of weight transfer. I am going much faster than I realised was possible just by balancing the car and not allowing large sudden changes, like a downshift or hard braking.

The second problem also relates to weight but in another way.
When you release the throttle in the skip barber, you need to understand that this is an extreme action. In other cars you drive have diff or suspension settings to compensate, the skip is setup this way to punish bad driving habits.

Much like when you are smooth on the brakes, squeezing that last %5 out of a corner, you must also be smooth off and on the throttle. Smooth and quick, that's the challenge.

Practice hard braking just before turn 1, feel the car and how it reacts.
Take turn 1 in 4th all the way, feel that weight.
Take it again in 4th but push harder until you are close to the edge of the track.
Feel that swoop as you go through, faster and faster.
Now take it in 3rd, you can feel the speed but also how it is more unbalanced, requiring faster input from you for corrections.

Hope this helps in some way!

Yes mate thank you, it is making more sense.

 

[vee10]

rFactor 2rFactor2 exe 03 09 2015 22 02 27 01:

Don't laugh lol

Interesting video Jim, thanks for uploading that.

From my amateur musings I think I noticed why you spun twice at 3.32 & 6.36.

A light low grip car like the Skippy is all about balance as Mat posted above. The first spin at 3.32 you have you unbalanced the car mid turn by lifting off the throttle. I would probably take that corner in third with a small amount of trailing throttle to balance it.

The second spin at 6.36 is a similar story although you actually have no throttle in fourth around a fast corner. The balance is all out. The car is just coasting into the corner. In a racing car you if your coasting you are losing time.

I would concentrate on your throttle inputs Jim first you are what I would call a digital driver at the moment on/off, on/off. In car like the skippy it needs to be more progressive to keep the car a balanced.

Hope that helps. If you upload a video with something with downforce and then we can have a look at that as well.

There are lots of better drivers than me on here so I am sure they will have some good advice as well.

 

[jimortality]

Interesting video Jim, thanks for uploading that.

From my amateur musings I think I noticed why you spun twice at 3.32 & 6.36.

A light low grip car like the Skippy is all about balance as Mat posted above. The first spin at 3.32 you have you unbalanced the car mid turn by lifting off the throttle. I would probably take that corner in third with a small amount of trailing throttle to balance it.

The second spin at 6.36 is a similar story although you actually have no throttle in fourth around a fast corner. The balance is all out. The car is just coasting into the corner. In a racing car you if your coasting you are losing time.

I would concentrate on your throttle inputs Jim first you are what I would call a digital driver at the moment on/off, on/off. In car like the skippy it needs to be more progressive to keep the car a balanced.

Hope that helps. If you can upload a video with something with downforce and we can have a look at that as well.

Cheers for that Laz, now I know how to post vids, there'll be no stopping me lol. I know exactly what you mean about the spins and a bit later I was starting to realise what Matt meant about coming off the throttle and I had more joy getting my entry speed down but keeping on the throttle through the corners. I'll probably have a blast tonight then I'll let you check out my Ferrari effort ready for the club race on Thursday cheers.

 

[David O'Reilly]

Jim,
Oversteer is where the front tyres grip too much. (nose come in rear steps out). Harder to control, fast when you can be precise with it.

Understeer is where the rear tyres grip too much. (nose runs wide) nice and predictable you run a little wide and you then realise you need to go slower.

One rally driver explained them as
Oversteer- you hit the tree backwards
Understeer- you hit the tree front on.

The skippy loves to oversteer on brakes. Its a training car and like the drill sargeant it yells at you when you get it wrong.

Weight Transfer
The mass is behind you, any wheel turn that takes the car out of perpendicular while braking and thet lump of engine and gearbox will try to maintain its current heading regardless of where you put the nose. So Brake in straight line.

Once you have lowered you speed you need weight on the rear again with throttle input.

Daytona.
The 911 in braking is even more fussy at the engine is right at the back.
Picture a hammer balanced on the palm of your hand with the head uppermost.
What happens to the hammer head if you move your hand sideways???
Thats the same as if you turn under brakes with a mid or rear engined car.
The forces are doing what gravity is doing to the hammer head, beckoning them forwards.
The only thing keeping the engine where it belongs is the fact the cars is perfectly perpendicular. (NO Lock)
With the 911, dont slam on the brakes, feed it progessively, this loads the fronts with all that rear weight, then keep progressing and it stops like a bad thing. Key asset of the 911. Jut keep it perpendicular.
You can start to use that mass to get it turned but "Not yet Luke" wait for the force.

 

[vee10]

Some great advice here Jim, you'll be clocking up pole positions soon. @David O'Reilly I just received the Alain Prost competition driving book you recommended. Looks a great read. When I eventually get to some club racing me and Jim will be locking out the front row

 

[jimortality]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned how nice the game looks. I've just seen it back on you tube and in my blinkered opinion, it looks pretty sweet! that's the view I use by the way. @David O'Reilly thanks for your help oh wise one.

 

[vee10]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned how nice the game looks. I've just seen it back on you tube and in my blinkered opinion, it looks pretty sweet! that's the view I use by the way. @David O'Reilly thanks for your help oh wise one.

Sorry Jim I was too busy watching your driving, but yes I did think it looks sweet. Is that in game AA or through inspector/nivida control panel?

 

[Bez]

@Jim Brailsford have you tried with auto clutch and paddle shifters, I know it's not as immersive but I've found I can concentrate more on my throttle modulation and entry and exit speed when I'm not using the h shifter, once I'm happy with my basic techniques I'll go back to using the h shifter

 

[jimortality]

Sorry Jim I was too busy watching your driving, but yes I did think it looks sweet. Is that in game AA or through inspector/nivida control panel?

Well, would you believe me If I said I wasn't using any AA! I have nothing in game aa or af and nothing for aa in nvidia cp. All I have, is control panel AF at 8xcsaa. Yeah I know! great isn't it. Everybody is always trying every different setting under the sun (Me included at one point) then I read something (Can't remember) and it was like a miracle lol

@Jim Brailsford have you tried with auto clutch and paddle shifters, I know it's not as immersive but I've found I can concentrate more on my throttle modulation and entry and exit speed when I'm not using the h shifter, once I'm happy with my basic techniques I'll go back to using the h shifter

I know mate but I need the immersion lol

 

[vee10]

8xcsaa

That is still a AA setting is it not Jim? Coverage-sampling-antialiasing, I will give it try later as the results look nice.

 

[jimortality]

That is still a AA setting is it not Jim? Coverage-sampling-antialiasing, I will give it try later as the results look nice.

Err, whatever the 8csaa one is on the dropdown then that's the one but I think it's AF Anistropic filtering which is one down from AA

 

[jimortality]

Jim,
Oversteer is where the front tyres grip too much. (nose come in rear steps out). Harder to control, fast when you can be precise with it.

Understeer is where the rear tyres grip too much. (nose runs wide) nice and predictable you run a little wide and you then realise you need to go slower.

One rally driver explained them as
Oversteer- you hit the tree backwards
Understeer- you hit the tree front on.

The skippy loves to oversteer on brakes. Its a training car and like the drill sargeant it yells at you when you get it wrong.

Weight Transfer
The mass is behind you, any wheel turn that takes the car out of perpendicular while braking and thet lump of engine and gearbox will try to maintain its current heading regardless of where you put the nose. So Brake in straight line.

Once you have lowered you speed you need weight on the rear again with throttle input.

Daytona.
The 911 in braking is even more fussy at the engine is right at the back.
Picture a hammer balanced on the palm of your hand with the head uppermost.
What happens to the hammer head if you move your hand sideways???
Thats the same as if you turn under brakes with a mid or rear engined car.
The forces are doing what gravity is doing to the hammer head, beckoning them forwards.
The only thing keeping the engine where it belongs is the fact the cars is perfectly perpendicular. (NO Lock)
With the 911, dont slam on the brakes, feed it progessively, this loads the fronts with all that rear weight, then keep progressing and it stops like a bad thing. Key asset of the 911. Jut keep it perpendicular.
You can start to use that mass to get it turned but "Not yet Luke" wait for the force.

All this with the Skippy is starting to make sense the more I drive it. I don't think I've put enough time in to be honest but I'm sure I will. Again, the progressive braking with the Porsche makes sense when I think about as If I just slam on the anchors then I get lock up, flatspotting and another thing to think about. Also, I wiki'd the Porsche and it said that rear engine should have a brake bias 35-65 but the guys on ts thought this didn't sound right.