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Please help

Discussion in 'RACE 07 - Official WTCC Game' started by Tim Ling, Oct 4, 2008.

  1. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium Member

    I'm not quite sure if this is the right place for this post, as it applies to all racing games. I am also quite certain I'm not the first person to suggest , but here goes.

    I'm having problems, like most newbies, as I can't get any where near the fastest people on the grid, and to be honest I don't expect to. However I also don't seem to be able to get near the mid-field runners either, at least for now.
    Part of the problem is not knowing the tracks, I admit this. But even as I get to know the tracks, my time doesn't fall that much. For instance, Brno 07, my fastest time is 2:06 so far, with an average of about 2:08. And yes I have managed to put 4 or 5 laps together without a major spin or off track excursion :thumb:

    The hotlap is 1:53

    So, I'm 13 seconds behind, or maybe 9 or 10 seconds per average lap. Quite depressing tbh, and not fun at all, and that includes for the people at the front with no competition.

    Now I'm not asking you give your skills to me (though donations gratefully accepted :D), but a little assistance for myself and other tail-end-charlies
    would be helpful.

    What kind of help?

    Well one-to-one would be great :thumb:. However, it may not be practicle, after all, we are all busy, and we all want to play the game, not teach it.

    Maybe a 30 minute to 1 hour session per week/month help a group of 5-10 on a circuit using team speak (side note: why doesn't anyone use the RD TS server? :focus:), first giving an overview of the track, general setup tips for the track (is it fast or slow, smooth or bumpy etc), then maybe watching each driver for a lap or 2 (depending on how many learner drivers there are).

    Alternatively (but not as good overall) or even alongside the Learner School, a forum with help for each circuit, with advice for each corner, and again setup help. At least people will know what is achievable on each corner of a circuit and strive to reach it. As I read back through this last section, I realise that with the amount of cars available to RD users, it could be tough to be a complete guide, but a rough guide would still be possible.

    Setups: a difficult, nay, black art. And before anyone says "Ahh, have you read....", yes I have read Ramon's fine guide, and many webpages explaining the same thing in different ways. But there is a problem, for me anyway. It's possible that I am alone in my "specialness", but I'm sure others have similar issues.
    When it comes to setting up a car, I kinda know what settings affect what. But how do I know where to start? What do I look for in my cars handling to know what to change first?

    I am quite happy to assist where I can. I don't want to open a can of worms and then leave others to clean up the slightly slimy mess. I just would like to have the most fun racing that I can, even if that means scrapping for 24th place all race, rather than being lapped by over 3/4 of the field because I have no idea what I'm doing and I can't keep up.

    I apologise if I cause any offence or disruption with this post, it is not my intention.
     
  2. I share you're thoughts.

    But you got backup.
    I've got the same average time on Brno.

    Probably we need to grow alot more, in experience.
    (At least i do)

    Maybe we can do some "rookie" racing,
    with other people wich are on the same level/skill.

    My trail application has just been approved,
    so there's another soul on theTS channel:)
     
  3. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium Member

    Cool David, see you there :)
     
  4. Daniel Monteiro

    Daniel Monteiro
    Premium Member

    yeah, i'm in the same situation also.

    i think the main point i get everytime i ask this around, is that we need to keep drinving, keep driving, keep driving... we can't learn in one shot.

    of course, help makes it easier, but what matters is the experience we have.

    if you're palying with a steering wheel, i sugest that you go to "time attack" and then download fastest laps from people who have uploaded theirs. try to upload a time that is just 2 or 3 seconds below yours, and then, as you manage to beat the downloaded ghost, try downloading one that is a little faster, and so on and so on... :thumb:

    as soon as i get to the trial membership. i'll be joining the RD TS too :D
     
  5. Marcel vd Aa

    Marcel vd Aa
    AC Paint Guru

    Hi Tim, I understand that it can be frustrating when you are not able to drive the same laptimes as the faster guys.
    I can give only one tip: practice, practice, practice.
    At first i think you should concentrate on getting to know the track.
    For example: when i started driving Nordschleife i ran a 7:16.
    After about two and a half week and about 50 laps i was down to 6:50.
    Note that i didn't change anything regarding the setup of the car.

    In my experience a good setup of the car will allow you to go faster but it will not let you drive 13 seconds (as mentioned by you) faster.
    Most time is gained by track knowledge.

    Finally i want to give you this: do not stare yourself blind at those hotlaps.
    There are guys in here ( the so called aliens) that even outpace the fastest guys.
     
  6. As Marcel has said alot of it is knowing the track, If you can drive a track were your basicly saying to yourself drop to 3rd 70mph hang out to the left, drop into the apex, add gas, change to 4th as tho it all second nature. Then times may start altering.
     
  7. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium Member

    I know that practice is what I need. I'd just finished a very frustrating session at Brno when I wrote the post. Impatience with myself is a major problem for me, especially at the moment.:doh:

    However I do think the idea has some merit for bringing in new players. Many years ago I was introduced to Counter Strike through the Newbie Training Clan, and that turned a game which I didn't understand and didn't enjoy into one I played to death for 4 years, including running a clan in leagues.

    Maybe a cut down suggestion is for help with setups. A section in the podcast maybe. I dunno. I'll shut up before you shoot me :laser::target::bounce:
     
  8. Marcel vd Aa

    Marcel vd Aa
    AC Paint Guru

    I totally support you're idea about them setups, however i feel there is a bit of a "problem".
    Just like most of the racers i too have lots of difficulties in finding fast and stable setups.
    Now, offcourse there are a few basic guidelines when it comes to setups.
    Most setup guides contain these basic adjustments.
    But i have noticed that the perfect setup is not the setup that suits the car the best but the setup that is a compromise between you as a driver and what the technology of the car can do.

    Basicly in my opinion the driver is the weakest link, and this is the difficulty with "setup lessons". Every driver has a different driving style.
    But offcourse it could help to learn what driving situations require what setup adjustment.

    In the meantime i would be willing to take you out onto a track and show you some stuff, note that i am not all knowing, i am still learning myself.
    Just let me know via PM or Msn

    greets marcel
     
  9. Yves Larose

    Yves Larose
    Premium Member

    i agree with all the guy's, knowing the track and how to drive it is what makes you gain ( or loose ) most of the time. the setup part is important too and some parts of it are more important then other. the gearbox and the break bias are very important, i found out that a good setup for those 2 can make you gain easely one second a lap. my advice don't be affraid to try things even if it seem bizarre sometimes its what it takes. another think is not to try to push to hard, sometimes your slower when your trying too hard, just go with the flow and try to be constant in your lap time, no more then .500 differrence lap after lap, that when you'll be able to understand more how the car behave and make the right adjustments.

    hope that help :thumb:

    p.s. it's also important that you find what is your driving style and make the setup in that direction.
     
  10. Practice is definitely the best thing you can do. Focus on making consistent laps rather than fast laps. Ideally you should be within .5 seconds of every lap, then you can work on making faster laps.

    Having a good setup helps, but it can be difficult to find one online that works for you, because everyone has different driving styles.
     
  11. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium Member

    I do agree Yves, setup is a personal thing, at least most of it. But it's knowing where to start...
    Example: The race2play setup developer Step 2 a-is the car bottoming out or dragging? How do I tell? And tbh, WTCC cars are unlikely to do this.

    Question 3 a- how does the car feel to you? with 5 options from major oversteer to major understeer. eerm...

    OK maybe, just maybe that's a little overstated, or maybe I'm being thick(it has been known), but what I need is a place to start. Setup is hard enough for drivers of real race cars, and they have a dedicated experienced pit crew to help them:pound:

    Ahh dammit! Maybe the problem is just me being too competitive, and wanting to be on the podium NOW dammit!

    I'll just go and stand outside in the rain til I cool down.:D

    @Marcel: Thanks for your offer mate I'll take you up on that.
     
  12. Just start experimenting. Start by trying some more drastic changes and see how it feels. Try lowering spring rate to the lowest setting and see how it drives. Then try it again with the hardest setting.

    I have learned a lot by trial and error.

    p.s. - if you can, send some of that rain my way. :cool:
     
  13. Marcel vd Aa

    Marcel vd Aa
    AC Paint Guru

    Hi Tim and hahaha, there is nothing wrong with being competitive.

    - how do you know if the car is bottoming out? first of all i think you can hear it ingame (don't know for sure)
    If you are not sure just drive the car with the swingman camera on, if you see a lot of sparks when going over bumps (curbs not included) you know the bottom his hittng the ground.

    - as for over/understeer. the way i tackle this: first i take corners at the speed the car lets me without sliding of the wheels (this you can hear).
    Make sure you have the best line through the corner.
    Then gradually you can increase your speed and making the necessary adjustments until you reach a certain flow through the corners and straights.
    What adjustments you need to make? That kind of info is in Ramon's setup guide.

    Just make sure you adjust one thing at a time and save the setups a lot.
     
  14. hey Tim

    well sometimes like you said is that you just need to learn the track

    Always....always test different approaches trough a corner.

    Let's take for example Barcelona
    most of the people when taking a corner just slams on the brake and then gas it back...while i at Barcelona just use a little bit braking and more coasting of the car. By doing that i will get a better feeling of how to accelerate out of the corner.



    As for bottoming out
    Bottoming out is a term that the car is so low that it just scrapes on the pavement of the track that it is creating sparks to come out of the back of the car.....
    Bottoming out is not really the thing to worry with a WTCC car (or any other touring cars)....but more for open wheelers and GT cars....
    say when you are running on straight and you see that the car keeps creating sparks at the back on the straight.....that is bottoming out......it is actually way to low (i think last race of the F1 was an example....some cars were way to low)
    why is it sometimes a bad thing?
    well let's put it this way...every time the car scraps alone the pavement, you just loose some more time and top speed (maybe others will disagree)...but for me it has the same effect as let's say you're riding a bicycle and while going fast you put your foot on the floor...you may slow down a bit or a lot.
    also it is bad for cornering....you may suddenly loose the grip on the tires as all the weight will be transfer to the bottom of the car instead of the tires....

    (but making the car to high also has the drawback that your car won't turn that well, so you need to find a fine line where the car is almost bottoming out or actually touching the ground here and there, but not constant touching)




    as for how to feel the car....
    force feedback :)
    sometimes oversteer is not really a bad thing (depending on your driving style)
    car handling always depends on what you like the car to do......you like it to oversteer?...then set it up a bit for that....you like it to understeer a bit for the feeling that the back end is gripping...then do that ;))
     
  15. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium Member

    Force feedback is not very good for me right now. I have to drive one-handed until I get the use of my right hand back :( TBH that's probably another reason I'm a bit slower than I want to be
     
  16. ahah....that may be the reason then :)
    just wait until your right hand heals, and you will see some difference :)
     
  17. I've only been driving this game since June. I have made a lot of improvements in my track meets within my time zone (Marcel, you were a big help to me at Brands Hatch). And yes, practice, practice, practice...I've noticed on some of the other threads that the fastest people have done Hundreds of laps over 8-9 months, studying the track and knowing their cars. I am still learning and am 4-5 seconds behind the other drivers in my area. I had my most improvements over the last 2 weeks and this is just talking on the servers with other drivers and following their lines. As for setups, I totally agree, every driver is different and I will download setups but tweak them for my driving style. I consider myself a calculated driver, where every turn is (supposed) to be taken a specific speed and gear, I try to match this lap after lap hitting the right turn in spot and speed. Sometimes early braking helps hit that and over time I increase my braking spot closer to the apex depending on if the car lets me do this. I don't know if I gave any clear info, just adding how I feel to getting help.
    Mostly, join races and talk to people, even those that aren't that great still have something to teach to newer people.

    Thanks!
    Tim M.
     
  18. Tim Ling

    Tim Ling
    It's a million-to-1 chance, but it just might work Premium Member

    Cheetrs for the advice Tim (good, solid name that :becky:), especially from someone who hasn't played sims for years. Cheers mate.

    But that does bring up the teamspeak question again. Why don't people use it, even if it's only for practice sessions?
     
  19. Daniel Monteiro

    Daniel Monteiro
    Premium Member

    see? there's always a lot of help around :) it's what they call "seat time". the more hours you'll have behind the wheel, the better you'll get.

    now just let that hand get healed! i had a bike accident and couldn't use my left leg, so i simply stopped playing for a while, and now i'm back again. there's no rush, you can watch fast people drive, for example :thumb:
     
  20. Tim, I got GTRE in mid September and could not wait to drive the Nordschleife, first 20 laps got me from 7:55 to 7:22 (over the moon) then went online to see 6:30 and quicker (deep depression). I got it down to 6:58 with more practice but could not go faster so started playing around with gears, brakes, camber etc.

    I am now doing 6:45 on a regular basis, but think it is more to do with the number of laps I have done rather than my setup changes. To test it I used the default setup and set a 6:39 so obviously my setup was rubbish and the more laps I did was the biggest factor in improving.

    I also have learnt so much by just watching and also driving behind faster drivers (though not for long lol). Watching has made the biggest improvement both to my driving line and smoothness at corners.

    So for me you learn by watching then trying to emulate.