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penalty system in need of overhauling

Discussion in 'Assetto Corsa' started by Terry Rock, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. Terry Rock

    Terry Rock

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    I love Assetto Corsa but the penalty system is really starting to pi** me off.
    It needs fixing...and has for a very, very long time.
    When you get forced off track or have to take evasive action by leaving the racing surface to avoid 'plowing' into crashed or crashing cars..only to receive a 20+ second penalty, something is very wrong.
    In no form of motorsport does that happen.
    Even if a competitor cuts a corner by carrying too much speed or simply over-driving the car, they're at least two warning before a penalty is issued.
    Go look at A1 or Hungary...two of the current F1 circuits where cutting penalties are enforced most often.
    Long ago, I suggested generating penalties to a known value...i.e braking inputs coupled with steering inputs.
    It could work to minimize the absolutely ludicrous system currently employed.
    All the current system does is 'kill' half the grid by imposing unrealistic penalties.
    Most guys simply hit 'escape' and leave after a 20 second penalty is handed out.
    There needs to be a better way to implement this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 9
  2. Giovaneveterano

    Giovaneveterano
    Premium

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    Agree. Too many times my online races has been ruined by a 10s penalty by cutting just a little bit of the Radillion. And if I'm too hasty to get back on gas just a tiny fraction of second before the end of the lift-off penalty, the game restarts the count down from 10 again!
    Some smaller cuttings need a smaller penalty, like 2s.
     
  3. Kasti

    Kasti

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    Especially the warning when you overdrive make no sense. You´re not taking any advantage - quite the opposite happens, you already lost time, getting damage, ruin your tyres and getting overtaken by the other cars. They fixed the AI quite well, perhaps the fix this on the next patch?
     
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  4. Jempy

    Jempy
    Premium

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    At each AC update since a very long time... it was the 1st new feature I was looking for ....
    And each time I was disappointed ....
    Those original penalties are only good for hotlapping but a real nightmare for Races offline or online.

    Now I'm not awaiting them ... as I wish to remain positive in place of being disappointed at each update.

    As I'm only driving online in leagues, all ones I'm driving in .... use this nearly perfect app called Pitlane Penalty.
    It's really perfectly done ... why this nearly ? .... not the author's fault as he cannot do else ....
    - If a Drive Through penalty ( after X free warnings according to the config file ) is not taken by the driver, only an admin's control afterwards will allow to give this driver a special penalty. ( after race ). ...and as admin, I know it's not a pleasant task even if it is necessary: disqualification after a race is never pleasant to announce and to receive either !
    - possible control to check if the app and right config file are used .... but no possibility to make it mandatory in the server settings .... what should be easier.

    But finally a perfect replacement of a really poor original race penalty system.
     
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  5. Rupe Wilson

    Rupe Wilson
    rFactor Senior Club Manager Staff Premium

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    @Jempy
    this looks really good :thumbsup::thumbsup:


    i will be installing this to try it out for sure :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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  6. Jempy

    Jempy
    Premium

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    Of course, Rupe .... it's more created for Online races .... as Offline no AI should take a penalty :roflmao: ... but I doubt that even one AI might get a cut warning. :D

    Now to remain more serious ;) .... we use this app in our league since nearly its 1st release .... and we couldn't race without it.

    Not only because the system is less dangerous .... but also and mostly because the cut detection ( based on the original ones ) is tempered by a few settings in its config file ... for example, the difference of speed between cut entry and cut exit ( the simple red square in game passes to green if the difference of speed is already reached not to get a cut warning ) ....

    NB:
    1) Drive Through can be replaced by a time based penalty
    2) There's another little software done by this app's author ( Wally Masterson :thumbsup: for a bit of publicity ;) )
    allowing to control the app and config file use as well as the taken or not taken penalties .... together with a result page of the different sessions ( very useful of course if Time Penalty is chosen ).
    This software allows to create a html result page. .... This software's name is ACLogParser.
    To be found at the official AC forum.

    EDIT:
    Of course for online use, the original penalties need to be disabled in the server_cfg.ini file.
    "ALLOWED_TYRES_OUT=-1"
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  7. ShredatorFIN

    ShredatorFIN

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    Yeah would be nice to have more realistic rules. The cutting time penalty is pretty wonky, race ruining punishment vs. no punishment with 1 cm difference. And sometimes it feels somehow inconsistent, dunno why. Feels sometimes like
    [​IMG]
    Or Russian Roulette maybe because you play chicken with the invisible cut penalty line, and good performance can be about avoiding the penalty zones by pure luck

    Also the inconsistent feel bothers me, like I get no penalty for major cut, then next time penalty for doing almost nothing. Dunno if it's about coasting when you go off? So that wouldn't trigger the penalty. And sometimes (like in Monza) it doesn't go away at all, even if you stop the car
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Radu Oros

    Radu Oros

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    If you are forced to cut the track to take evasive action and you get a time penalty, is because you profited from the cut, so the time penalty served its purpose. Usually when you need to go off road you lose speed or almost go to a crawl. You don't get a penalty in those situations, and even if you do, just reduce speed to 35kmh and you're good to go without waiting any more time.

    How many times per race you need to go off road and cut the track in high speed? The only times I see where you need to go off track is in the first and maybe second lap and you aren't going at very high speed, since many cars are close together, especially in the first corners of the race. And still you get the option to reduce speed to 35 and continue quickly with the race.
     
    • Haha Haha x 1
  9. Terry Rock

    Terry Rock

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    Nice try...but no.
    Not even close.
    I've received two penalties so far for the exact thing and no time was remotely gained.
    In one of those cases I actually had to come almost to a full stop immediately, since the surface off the tarmac was also mostly blocked. The guy directly in front of me had spun and I had to go wide so as not to clout him. He in turn had spun because of the accident in front of him.
    In both cases I received a 20 sec slowdown penalty.
    The video above offers a much better and quite frankly, more realistic solution to the problem of corner cutting.
    Despite the rest of the game being good, the penalty system as it stands is very bad.
    Don't go making excuses for it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. Radu Oros

    Radu Oros

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    So is easy to replicate and show us the problems of the cut track penalties in AC? Please make a video and show us all how flawed it is because so far no one recorded live gameplay where they received unfair time penalties.

    If you want to change this aspect in the game then you need more than words, you need to actually show the devs how bad it is so that hopefully they will think of an improvement. But so far all the reports on the cutting penalty system seem exaggerated and more the fault of the own driver for receiving it. Please, a video of a live gameplay during a race, since recording from replays it doesn't show the time penalty.
     
    • Haha Haha x 2
  11. Terry Rock

    Terry Rock

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    @Radu...

    Made this video strictly to highlight the issues....
    Pay very close attention to the numbers on the speed display versus penalty timer clock.
    This is the exact corner I've had most of those penalties in.
    I deliberately went way down in the gearbox to the point of over-revving the engine to scrub speed (harder than you'd think possible).
    Initially the penalty states slow for 5 secs or to 21 mph before the END of the current lap.
    It then miraculously switches to slowdown for 20 seconds after I cross the very first 'sleeping policeman' and even before I can re-enter the track's surface.
    I deliberately speed up afterward... then slow down to serve the penalty.
    Again, watch the counter as I exit Lesmos2.
    The timer goes first from 17 secs to 19 secs with no speed increase and starts to count downward again.
    I then make a small correction to steering with slight increase in throttle which equals a 1 mph speed increase... the timer goes from 17 secs back up to 20 secs and then starts counting down again.
    You may think that is reasonable....I don't.
    It's a race 'killer' and the reason half the field has disconnected and left by the first few corners.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Radu Oros

    Radu Oros

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    Looks like you cut two penalty zones, one for the first part of the chicane and another zone for the second part of the chicane. So now you're suffering added penalties, not just from one cut. Which means if you'd have respected the first penalty (5sec or down to 21mph) then you'd continue your race quicker instead of receiving 20 straight seconds.
    But this is for Monza, where cutting the track can really reduce your lap time, especially at the chicanes. So I don't actually see any wrong from the part of the game in this situation.

    And now in the part where your time was decreasing at 17sec but the penalty reset again to 20sec, it was from giving a bit of throttle and not from the steering. You can even notice your speed stopped going down and went from 72 to 74mph. Or judging by the engine sound it tells you applied throttle without looking at the speedometer.
     
    • Haha Haha x 1
  13. Daggerman

    Daggerman

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    The penalty system is horrible, its slightly less horrible than it was in early access, but its still awful. Adding time at the end of a race is much preferred to me, and a series of flags, so drive-through, then stop and go, then black flag for further offences. Having to slow down so much on a live race track is both unrealistic and can cause issues to cars behind.
     
  14. Terry Rock

    Terry Rock

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    It is quite clear to me based on your choice of words, you like the system as it is currently.
    I've now given you clear evidence and explained it in detail.
    Your inability to look at this issue objectively, means I have nothing further to discuss with you on this topic.
    As to your explanation about dual penalties...that's just 'horse sh*t'.
    Read the statement at the top of the screen.
    I'll quote it for you...."Penalty, Slow Down for 5 seconds OR 21 MPH before the end of current lap."
    What is the point of that last part of the statement, if they're going to impose a 20 second penalty simply for trying to rejoin the track... with no speed increase?
    Look and listen as the car goes over the sleeping policeman, when the penalty is increased.
    There is absolutely zero increase to existing throttle at that point... which means, no advantage gained..
    There was also no other means of rejoining the track without driving backward...a no-no in racing of any kind.
    The steering is actually cranked to the left initially.
    Now...moving on to Lesmos1...
    At the 17 secs countdown the car is at 103 mph. It hold that (17 secs) all the way to 95 mph at which point (while still coasting and completely off throttle) with no speed increase you can clearly see it jump back up to 19 seconds at 92 mph.
    I've already explained Lesmos2's throttle bump...which you have confirmed,.so I don't feel a need to discuss that any further.
    F1...or any form of motorsport for that matter, would be pretty boring if it was policed this way..
    They can certainly do a better job at this, given how good the better parts of this sim are.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
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  15. Radu Oros

    Radu Oros

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    There's your judgment mistake about the track cutting penalties. They aren't imposing a 20 second penalty for rejoining the track, they are giving you an extra penalty for cutting the track two times. In your video at the chicane, you're cutting two corners.

    See this example: you cut the track in one corner and receive "5sec or reduce speed to 35kmh before ending the lap". Does this mean that if you again cut the track in the next corner you should still be with your first penalty and not receive another one for again cutting the track?

    To me it seems you're looking for an excuse to cut many corners but only get 5sec/35kmh penalty for the whole lap. I don't care if that wasn't your intention, it can be on purpose from other drivers in the race that are looking to gain advantage. So the game adds penalties if you cut multiple times before serving the previous ones.

    Here we are talking about Monza where they need to make sure people don't benefit from cutting and passing ahead, even if people just bring the "taking evasive action" argument. If there were other cars at the same time as you in that chicane and they would drive the road normally, while you cut the whole chicane from the outside, no matter if you are taking evasive action, you will pass ahead of many cars which are going slower through the chicane, while you can speed through from the outside and pass ahead of them. So you will benefit, no matter if intended or not. People won't give back the places gained after cutting the track, so that's why the game makes you slow down.
     
  16. RasmusP

    RasmusP
    AC Stuff and G27 help Staff Premium

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    I think the main problem is, that the penalties, as they are at the moment, are going against "bad persons" that take evasive actions AND gain positions by it, without giving them back.
    For these drivers, the current penalties are "good", like @Radu Oros states. I agree with his points!

    But then you have nice persons who go like this "Oh damn there is an accident, I'm just gonna roll over the chicane to not crash into them". And if you gain positions by that, you have to give them back, like in real life!
    The current penalties are not supporting "fair and nice drivers" and that makes many people quite angry as the penalties are therefore not very usable for club races, leagues etc.

    That's the reason why in the RD club races we have disabled the penalties. If a driver goes over the chicane and doesn't give the gained positions back you can file a report and it will be handled :)

    With general ruling it's always the same:
    restricting bad behavior of idiots, but restricting nice people too much vs. open it for the nice people but get the fun taken away by the idiots.
    Not an easy decision and to find the best way between that is dancing on the edge! :O_o:
     
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  17. Radu Oros

    Radu Oros

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    I think a time penalty would be better served at the end of the race on the leaderboard or in the pits. I wouldn't mind a complete revamp of the track cutting/bumping other cars penalties, flags system (mandatory following for both multiplayer and AI players), something more motorsport like and less online game alike. So this way, if people complain, "but umm, is like in real life", end of worries with the forums.