PC1 Pcars: A community divided

[Nathan Robinson]

Continuation of Part 1: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/banned-for-no-reason.47384/

Its hard to believe a game has taken a community over like this. Now with legal proceedings, its kind of become a joke for simmers. I have been at this a while now and have never seen a game invoke so much negative and positive reaction. May the discussions continue


Ps. While i continue to support pcars, i respect RD for allowing the freedom of expression to all its members.

 

[Tom]

You're about a week late to the party. It's been sorted, let's not start over.

Else we might have to do something for no reason!

 

[Jamie Shorting]

You're about a week late to the party. It's been sorted, let's not start over.

Huh, here I thought this thread was started yesterday.

 

[Klazerman]

Huh, here I thought this thread was started yesterday.

Internet time is relative it seams

 

[Farrell Hudjik]

So wrong in so many areas. Please do post the full PM thread if you want to. I have absolutely nothing to hide. I tried to reach out and was thwarted, simple as that. You've been openly hostile from the off.

Micas is not my henchman, I resent the allegation and have openly refuted it in this and other threads on multiple occasions.

As I said in the PM's it's very hard for me to prove I'm not a thief, liar, conman, nazi etc etc. I did though prove that the title of the banned thread was false. But you've refused to amend it.

Given the above, given your general attitude here despite me trying to make contact to talk directly, despite me offering RD members free access to pCARS I can only assume there is some agenda. And yes, the fact you are listed as working for SimBin on your resume made me wonder if there was not an anti pCARs agenda here. Certainly I've never read anything like the level of vitriol on any other site about us.

I'm not threatening any members here. Never have done. As I say, I'm offering them free memberships.

I've promised a moderator in here that I would not make a post in the Pcars forum, not because he asked me too, but I said I would.

Reason I have to make this post is it's bothering my conscience for some of the distasteful comments I have said in the prior "banned for no reason thread". For those actions, and my comments I wish to come on here to apologize to Ian and Micas and all the members on here for my behavior in some of my comments being WAY outta line.

I'am a fairly new member here on RD and have been just reading through most of these posts that just seem to continue to go around in circles. I almost see a constant street rumble going on and I cannot believe what I'am reading, nor Ians constant complaint not just getting solved as IAN, I have witnessed time and time again for proof beyond reason of the said individual getting banned for no reason, and Ian your unwillingness to comply with factual documentation.

I have witnessed behavior by yourself on this site unbecoming of a truly professional individual in your unwillingness to take a time out and think before you type and actually read what you typed and really ponder on whether you should hit the "Post reply" button or not. Coming into the threads using the F word in full and say later you were just joking is something I'm sure you will not permit on your WMD forum. Making threats to various individuals and throwing Lawsuit threats at RD for unconstitutional behavior on the part of Micas (the guy who has brought a bad name to SMS and yourself) who you say you don't speak for.

I and everyone else in here is almost CERTAIN, that IF Micas did not invest the kind of money on his project that he did and came in here and defamed SMS and was destroying your reputation and your project, would it not be a different story from your end on him? Would he not be the 3rd individual banned. See money talks we all know that, and I guess that gives him an instant pass am I correct? Now RD could of banned him off this site a LONG time ago, but LOOK they didn't. A lot of abuse has been coming from this man and just stoking the flames like using a stick on a Lion to tick him off. For that, and your unwillingness to control him and even yourself, if you take legal action in the end, in MY eyes I see sooo much of a negative outcome and a almost very dangerous outcome on how not only Pcars will be looked at, But firstly how YOU will be looked at and SMS coming in second.

You say you care about the community. RD is one of the biggest communities (I know you know it and have heard this a number of times already) globally. I think it would be good to give you these words as a owner, and an expected to be and act professional on behalf of SMS.

Just stop..Stop now, cause you are not helping things and you see how Micas and lately yourself have stoked the fire. Just stop IAN. THINK. Don't let you feelings cause you to say or make any bad decisions. This new thread with you in here (hell i'm still just on page 9) is sounding like damage control beyond repairing. Bram not once, not twice, but many times i've seen has simply asked for the documentation to analyse whether the individual banned is truthful on his and your part. Which one is being dishonest. Like pulling teeth, YOU have not been willing to comply to his very straight forward request. You know how easy it would be for you to find the proof and give it to him. Not in public, but in a PM to review? Then if you speak the truth, I guarantee that "Banned for no reason" would be removed immediately. But you can't or won't by your sidesteppin his request. That unwillingness to cooperate peaceably, starts to make you seem in my eyes through your comment feeling very uneasy.

One last word of good advice. Remember no matter what forum you are on. No matter where you are when you are in BUSINESS MODE, you have a responsibility to your company, your investors, your employees, the racing fan community and especially YOURSELF to be at your best behaviour. You will win many back and get respect beyond what you could ever imagine. And your company and Project Cars wouldn't be in question. I don't hate you. How could I ever say that since we've never met. Be wicked of me to say that. But I've lost all respect for you. Forget this Lawsuit threat and move on and let time go and get back and meeting with your team and showing us finally since GTR2, a KICKASS sim. And maybe next game you develop, do yourself a favour and don't do this investors route anymore. I smelt trouble with the idea before even joining.

One last thing Ian. I've been a member of WMD since Oct11, and seen very little improvement since then and sorry to say this, but that SRT review on TDFL looked a lot like Pcars in THIS state now. Not saying it's gonna be like that in the finished product.
I'm a senior member on your project and have done maybe 3 threads and very little posting. Good ideas and not ONE response from your staff on my wanting to be involved. Gave up and have been just testing the builds. I just don't like what I'm seeing and with the release date (I'll give you a year so from now, as I believe that is where you'd like Cars to go gold) a year or less away, just don't wish anymore to be involved with this project and if you could do me a favour in private conversation here to tell me how I go about getting a refund. My name as you see should be easy to find in your records as I always truthfully use my real name.

Thankyou and I wish you all the luck and success on this title. You have lots of work to do. I hope you are enjoying your vacation and hope when you get back to your office, you have a meeting with your team on everything you can do to make Pcars a huge success.

Now this is officially my last post. Pcars to me now and talking about it is just where I don't wish to be ever again on this forum. Again to Ian and all RD staff members, moderators, and members I deeply am sorry. I hope you all have a good day. Bye.

 

[Rhys Gardiner]

[snip]

Just for the record Farrell, the lawsuit threats have been dropped. However, you should be commended for coming out and apologising for those posts, and for keeping this post calm, professional and reasonable. Respect.

 

[aaltomar]

Reading the first 10 pages I found it very entertaining...

But I have to say the legal threats are too much when people are only voicing valid or unvalid opinions.

I haven't been a fan of games that are at core "Shift". That being said in contradicting myself I was very vocal in defending Shift1 physics saying "it's a diamond at its core" when modders started messing with the the physics files. But in the end the core was not a good base to start with as the Shift 2 was cleary not optimized first to work with wheels when it was supposed to be the "ultimate" sim experience. The claim I would call dishonest and leading potential customers believing in something it wasn't.

At first I was excited for pCars but as it seems it's more for blingbling and less for serious sim racers. Thus I haven't even become a junior member although I did register and almost paid the entry fee. But didn't as I didn't want to drive another Shift title no matter how pretty it was.

 

[F_One]

I've been trying to force myself not to register here, but if it's ok for some people to break their own rules and keep posting and posting after they said they're done arguing, then why not.

And maybe next game you develop, do yourself a favour and don't do this investors route anymore. I smelt trouble with the idea before even joining.

Maybe you shouldn't tell Ian what to do with his project(s). This new model, IMHO, is what all games should be developed like. If more players could test the game before release and provide input, we'd be getting virtually bug-free games with features that community wants, instead of garbage that needs 3-4 patches just to get the game working right. Yeah, some people don't know how to behave themselves and don't understand that WMD is not a public forum, but a workplace, but the amount of these people is minimal. Mostly the project is (IMHO) a success. Hopefully Ian agrees with that and we get more games developed under WMD and maybe other companies adopt a similar model.

One last thing Ian. I've been a member of WMD since Oct11, and seen very little improvement since then and sorry to say this, but that SRT review on TDFL looked a lot like Pcars in THIS state now.

You must have a very short memory, because the game has had a lot of improvements in all the key areas since Oct 11th. Graphics, physics, FFB, track details, cars, licences, sound, you name it - everything has been steadily improving and things slowed down only in the last month or so. Probably due to a lot of people being on vacation. I don't know how you could say that TDFL looks the same as pCARS (even in the current state). If you only base it on graphics, yes there is resemblance, but that's about it. TDFL is closer to Shift rather than pCARS.

I'm a senior member on your project and have done maybe 3 threads and very little posting. Good ideas and not ONE response from your staff on my wanting to be involved. Gave up and have been just testing the builds.

Pfft...3 threads and you gave up? First, developers read every post in every thread. They can't respond to everything they see, otherwise they would not get any work done. Second, sometimes someone else already posted a similar idea, so your own post may be redundant and that's why it doesn't get feedback from the devs. It's difficult to keep track of what's happening around WMD sometimes, but that's part of your membership too - you get part of the profit for active involvement in the development of the game. It's fine that you don't have time or desire to show more effort, but it's not Ian's or WMD's fault.

Just wanted to make sure we're keeping it honest around here.

 

[Mapu]

next?

 

[bogdantw]

I haven't been a fan of games that are at core "Shift". That being said in contradicting myself I was very vocal in defending Shift1 physics saying "it's a diamond at its core" when modders started messing with the the physics files. But in the end the core was not a good base to start with as the Shift 2 was cleary not optimized first to work with wheels when it was supposed to be the "ultimate" sim experience. The claim I would call dishonest and leading potential customers believing in something it wasn't.

At first I was excited for pCars but as it seems it's more for blingbling and less for serious sim racers. Thus I haven't even become a junior member although I did register and almost paid the entry fee. But didn't as I didn't want to drive another Shift title no matter how pretty it was.

I understand what you mean but there are several things I disagree with.
Well first off the comparison with Shift series has been pretty much used as an insult more than anything else in regards to pCARS, promoted by people that didn't like the project (for whatever reason).
It was never an argument based on facts, the two titles have almost nothing in common.
Playing them a few minutes makes that immediately obvious, there's really no sense following that line of reason any further.

Secondly I've tried to find that "ultimate sim experience" marketing related to Shift 2.
I could never remember such claims when the game was released so I searched where that came from.
I could find no such claims coming from EA or SMS and I'm quite positive that's a projection of what disappointed sim-racers bestowed upon the Shift series rather than a fact.
Here's what the actual EA description of the game is:
http://www.needforspeed.com/shift-2-unleashed
http://www.ea.com/shift-2-unleashed
The only ambitious statement in there is this:

"SHIFT 2 Unleashed sets the bar for realistic racing and gives all the excitement and exhilaration of race day in a groundbreaking authentic experience."

Sure it leaves room for interpretation but I doubt it reads as the "ultimate sim experience".
After all Shift is part of the NFS franchise, which leads in that direction even less.


Now, pCARS has been promoted in a very promising/ambitious fashion which is expected since it's relying on the community for funding the development.
Most of the points that were made at the beginning of the project were goals and should be read as such.
Here's what the actual description of the game looks like : http://www.wmdportal.com/projects/cars/
Not exactly the same as forum hearsay ...

Anyway pCARS comes with high hopes, big expectations and lots of room for skepticism.
I understand that and I do share some of it.
But in all honesty everybody (should) make up their own mind once they try the game (finished or not), not based on marketing claims or forum talk.

The release is scheduled a year from now and there are so many changes planned for it.
Opinions, premature reviews and predictions people make right now are nothing more than wishful thinking.

just my 2c...

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Secondly I've tried to find that "ultimate sim experience" marketing related to Shift 2.
.

We have a full realism hardcore mode called Pro that you can choose to race in from the start that will feel natural and comfortable as well as raising the bar for handling compared to anything out there (or due out soon) for all of our hardcore race sim fans.

http://www.virtualr.net/need-for-speed-shift-ian-bell-interview

This is regarding Shift1, and I think the Shift2 physics video was posted several times in the "Banned for no reason" thread.

 

[bogdantw]

I see what you mean.
There are definitely some bold statements over there, but it's still quite a stretch towards that "ultimate sim experience" I argued against.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I see what you mean.
There are definitely some bold statements over there, but it's still quite a stretch towards that "ultimate sim experience" I argued against.

[MOD] - unnecessarily abusive

 

[Senad Subasic]

Ah, David, you amuse me. Not sure if I prefer you insulting others, or being a timid flower like when Mr. Bell was around.

Anyway, post reported.

 

[bogdantw]

[MOD] - unnecessarily abusive

well ... excuse you!

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Ah, David, you amuse me. Not sure if I prefer you insulting others, or being a timid flower like when Mr. Bell was around.

Ohh, I was in the PM box chatting with Ian and co trying to end the hostilities.

 

[Rob Every]

Hehe, a new thread eh!

The hostilities will only end when this "sort of" game matches it looks with its feel.

That has been the criticism levelled at it since day 1.

There has been a lot of things happened in sim racing, forums, news sites because of this game. A lot of them rather unsavoury. Some because of us punters and just as many because of people involved with SMS. They are things that have rarely happened in the past, forums banning people relentlessly, accusations made, punch and counter punch made. All things that Simbin, ISI, and the other many people involved in sims have not really got into in the past.

Hence the backlash and insults.

Make the game as awesome as people want and you wont need to fear this.

It's that simple, coz so far it's just not there, sorry.

You can go on relentlessly about its a pre alpha, bla bla, and fair enough, but I would have expected to see more of an improvement based around mods and stuff I ahve been involved in by now.

Either the game physics are so wrong you cant do much about it, or you are happy having a pretty game that plays alright.

 

[Kazumi]

Hehe, a new thread eh!

The hostilities will only end when this "sort of" game matches it looks with its feel.

With a large portion of projected sales on console they better make a f'ing good racing game first.

If it's more then that, better for "us"

 

[Andy_J]

I care for this one about as much as I care for some Chinese web site dedicated to the joys of banging rocks together.

For your info Micas, this is the premier Sim racers site, so I would have thought you might have some regard for this one.

It damn sure won't affect me, because I'm tucked away quite nicely in Dallas Texas, enjoying the fruits of my labor.

Yeah we heard that before, many times.

It's just.. a... video.. game. I have a wad of money involved in it, and I don't take it as seriously - honestly to epic proportions - as some people here.

Yeah, we've heard about all the money you have invested in it. Again.

It became something of a game for me - entertainment if you will. I'd write something a little more absurd than the last, then sit back to watch everyone take it completely seriously.

Yeah, we caught on. Trolling at it's best, but why? Sad really for a grown man.

So, in conclusion, allow me to sum up. First - I'm not a representative of SMS.

You are to us. You even changed your username to Micas WMD. And stated you and Ian laughed at us. Who had the last laugh?

Second - I do realize that some people think that I have single handidly destroyed SMS. Behold my power! I just disagree on that.

No you didn't, but you gave it a good try. You are good for WMD, no doubt.

Finally, I will refrain from posting here and on NoGrip.

Oh yeah, we've heard that one before Mr Troll. You'll be back when you are bored.

I wonder, is the entire issue here that I am beyond any sort of "punishment" for my affronts to the One True Sim Community? Would everyone feel better if there was some sort of negative consequence to me for my sins?

Yes, I'd like to see you work as a mine detector in Afghanistan. A worthwhile job where money does not even come into it.

Byeee

Good bye Micas. Don't come back. The whole race sim community will not miss you and will be better without you.

 

[Andy_J]

In light of the fact that the threat of legal action has been reduced and that SMS/WMD decided that legal action was not a great idea, can the "Banned for no reason" thread be re-opened now? It will be up to members whether they add to that thread or not.

Cheers
Andy

 

[William Levesque]

Nice to see mankind isn't evolving...

When trouble fades away, other people try to fire it back up, how amazing is that ?