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Nordschleife times are frustrating me

Discussion in 'RACE 07 - Official WTCC Game' started by Chad711, Oct 20, 2008.

  1. I've posted about this before at rsc. Here I am again trying to really figure out what it is I am doing wrong. Just some back ground on me. I have raced this track ever since Gran Turismo for playstation 2. I know this track very well. I can run through the whole track in my head, every single turn. I coudl draw it on paper if I had to. So I do not think my issue is "knowing this track".

    My best time on this track is 6:45:xx. Doesn't matter if I am in a GT Pro or WTCC Extreme car. That is as good as I can get. I've watched replays, downloaded setups and even got help with setups but just can't get better then 6:45:xx on this track.

    After watching replays and following lines from files of people running in the 6:30's I just do not get two things. How are you braking that late and how are you on the gas that early? This is basically the only way people are getting these times any faster then me. I have tried to follow these and there is no way I can do this with out the car getting side ways or losing the line.

    I'm just really confused on what I can possibly do to gain a whole 10-15 seconds on this track when I feel I am pushing this car to the limits.

    I'm starting to wonder if my wheel settings are off or what. I've tried different settings with my G25. It doesn't really seem to make that big of a difference. Moved wheel rotation from 240 to 540 and now at 400. Lock from 15 all the way up to max. Speed sensitive steering from 50% to 0% to 10%. Doesn't seem to matter. I've used tunes that seem to help out but not enough to get me down under 6:45.

    :frusty:
     
  2. Remember there are around 100 corners on Nordschleife, so if you are half a tenth slower in each corner, which is very easy to do, you are 5 seconds down over the lap.

    It sounds as though you are trying too hard. Let it come naturally, there's often a barrier that you have to break through to take it to the next level. Just a question of patience and trying different ways of breaking the barrier.
     
  3. I'm dedicated to improving my time on this track, do not think I am trying to hard. That is why I'm looking for technical help.

    Some how people are getting through the 2nd sector about 3 or 4 seconds faster and the 3rd sector is where I drop even more time. It's a matter of braking and exit speed. I use the same car and cannot get on the gas as soon as they do. I've tried it many of times.
     
  4. I know how it feels Chad. One thing I've learned could be usefull for you too: Rely on your own driving skills. Don't try to take every corner like you see at replays and stuff, same goes for setups. It's all different for everyone. In the end you will reach faster times when you have cleared your mind from all the replays, corner speeds, braking points, exit speeds etc. Trying to drive just like the fastest laps will make you slower :wink:
     
  5. Sanders, no sir you do not know how it feels mister 6:20's!! LOL ;)

    I understand what you mean. I know there are certain parts of the first sector I am faster at then some of the people I see doing 6:30's. But when it comes down to it, I am trying to understand simple physics here. I see these 6:30's people braking and exiting much better then I can do with the same car. I just do not understand how they can do it!! Just frustrating when you see others doing it and my car gets side ways when I do it. I know there is some things I can do to help the acceleration out of a corner (lock, lowering the car, etc) but it still slips.
     
  6. hehehe i'm not even gonna start commetating here :peace: like i said gefore in another Thread, i'm happy if i stay out of trouble and get in the top 10 :)
     
  7. Chad, I understand what you are expressing; However I find it hard to have any sympathy for you... I would give up my left nut to run a 6:45 at Nords!!! LOL

    I guess Albert Einstein expressed it best when he stated that EVERYTHING is relative to the perspective of the observer!!!
     
  8. You're just trying to make me feel better :D:hug: LOL
     
  9. You mean Galileo's Principle of relativity (XVII)... although Einstein's Theory of restricted relativity (XX) uses that Galileo's principle.


    Now to Nordschliefe, my favorite track... (btw Pro lvl all helps off)

    As stated on another post on this forum, I’ve recently (1 month?) went from an old ”Flight Yoke" (MS SideWinder Precision 2) driving to a G25 with clutch driving.

    On a not that perfect lap I did, with the C5R, 6.36 with my old controller and, at that time, I only had GTREvo for less than 15 days...

    What was my shock that, 2 days after having the G25, I wasn't even able of giving a full lap without taking a power or brake spin.

    Same setup that gave me a lap around 6.36, now gave me a 7+ mins lap... :p

    After reading many topics about G25 settings, I managed to get something that was comfortable for me.

    Nowadays with the same car, with the same setup but with 30 steering lock, I can do about 10 secs more than my old time (6.47) wish is near your time and far from the 7 mins that I was doing in the first attempts with G25.

    How can I justify the 10 sec deficit?

    Well…

    Braking, clutching and turning -- I’m taking more time with this operation then for instances with my old flight yoke where I “Brake & turn” with the same move on the yoke and just went down the gearbox like a mad man (no clutching).

    Power Slide control -- With my old yoke, I could go from left to right while keeping accelerator down faster than I can with G25. On top of that I feel that I’ve to let go from the accelerator more then I needed to do with the yoke. With yoke the C5R twitched, screamed and went sideways, but I could control it all the same keeping more accelerator then with G25. Even if with the yoke I needed to let go the accelerator (rear wanting to overtake the front) I could go faster on it again (faster brake acceleration transition) as on the G25 where I also have to clutch (although wile going up on the sequential gearbox, I shift keeping full power on wile I clutch).

    How does it feel -- the game has a compromise here, it is made in way that also give room for yoke drivers to have a chance (as the things stand ,maybe too much). In truce the 1cm that comprises the yoke move for the acceleration should give much more power slide that it currently gives, putting 500 hp on the tarmac at a fraction of a second should have a price. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating here against yoke, mouse, keyboard or any other drivers, we need them all… I just don’t like “rammers” and “divers” independently of the controller of their choice).

    So what have I gained with G25 -- nowadays instead of using only one hand/arm to do all the work, I use 2 hands/arms and 2 feet/legs and the virtual driving is MUCH more REAL, that is the true advantage of a G25, not that it is faster…

    Where does it excel -- long races, the G25 permits relaxed driving for a long period. With a yoke, after 2 (Nord) laps, my hand was in pain and on the 3rd lap the chance of mistake went up considerably.

    Conclusion -- in my view I will get to my old times with the G25, it just takes more time to get used to all the fast coordination needed in comparison to my well educated right hand ; )

    Advice -- If times are important, try to become an expert on one car…

    Those FW drive toy cars (the extreme something or whatever they are called, the Seat, the Chevrolet, and the Alfa) are easy options, yes their physics are a joke but they can be fun, it is like going around in a magic carpet, they don’t exist, but if they did, it would be fun… Also I seem to recall, that like the WTCC cars on this game, they don’t give a damn if you downshift fast without using clutch in any sort of way, the lock slide just doesn’t happen, a situation where a real RW car even with a very good sequential gearbox would kill you against a wall (not speaking of a multi $$$ broken gearbox).

    This post has gotten so big, that I’m starting to get embraced, but there is another very important point… the setup, I won’t go into much detailed, will just mention a few things.

    Many of these times are made with setups that will literally explode the car on the 2nd lap…

    I’ve seen guys going around with so hard suspension settings that in RL they would dislocate a vertebra on the 3rd bump… hard is fast going balanced, but the car becomes twitchy on every aspect (transitions, left right, acceleration brake, asphalt curb and so on). But in truce in this game, with such a setup you can go fast at Zandvoort... for a lap or 2!
    The camber, extreme negative cambers in front (without touching the ground) give you an extreme cornering capacity, but again your tires wont last past 3 or 4 laps…

    Solution, either apply this setups too, or go endurance with 100% damage on.
    With these settings, these guys don’t last on a true race… most likely they are smart and will have a softer engine setting (rev, duct…), but they are used to the way the car handles with their “extreme qualifying”* settings (even if they lessen them up a bit). Comes the 10th lap (3rd lap on the North) and they don’t have any tires left and their cars start to spend more time going sideways then forward and now they are much more prone to error…

    * I divide setups in "race", "qualifying" and "extreme qualifying" setups...
    The extreme class is for non real setups, as in RL one can't change cars or engines after one practice or qualifying section :)

    Well, I think I broke my record, this is big, hopefully it is done in a way it can be read without much pain, sorry for the long post :p
     
  10. Thanks for all the info Tanaka. So you went faster with one of those Flight Sim controllers??? I didn't even know you could use those!!! Very strange to think you would drive a car with one, haha.

    I am not that great at setups. I would like to try an extreme setup for the R8 or DBR9 just to see what I can do with it. If I could get down to 6:39 I would be happy. I just do not know how to get an "extreme setup".
     
  11. Yesterday a guy rammed me braking into the 1st corner on Curitiba...
    He said "Sorry" & justified himself because he was "getting used" to "mouse braking :D Now imagine driving a RL car with a keyboard and a mouse... :nono:

    Has a C5R virtual driver, I hate R8 & DBR9 :D (the last one is just a screamer, that V12 Ferrari engine irritates me, especially when its ”zumbing” around my C5R), so I can't help you with a setup for those :p
    Now, the same surely can't be said about some regular forum posters on this board, some of them pull 6.20 with wtcc extreme class cars (as we all can see, I've learned the name of the "toy car" class by now) and low 6.30 with GT ones on the Nord, so they are in better position to give you some tips regarding setups.

    BTW, with the new patch, the DBR9 will go faster on the straight (better aerodynamic coefficient), wish will definitely help you lowering into the 30's.

    Practice braking wile cornering (you need a good brake bias that is comfortable for you, no locking or brake sliding) and gently accelerate wile exiting corner to apply full power when the car is about fully balanced.

    If I’m not mistaken, I think I’ve raced against you; I seem to remember your name from a WTCC race in Zandvoort
    If indeed I’m not mistaken, it was a full race (25) where I had a reasonably starting grid position (5th) but I was rammed from behind on turn 7 (the fast right) on the 1st lap (like it is commonly seen in public servers) so I ended the 1st race pretty deep and went on to do a good recuperation to 4th on the second race. I remember you coming 2nd on that same race, doing a good race and fighting for first with a very quick guy on a Chevy. So if indeed I’m not mistaken, you don’t seem to me to be the sort of guy I would really like to be going faster :D

    I’m joking and I know this topic is originally about GTs and Nord :)
     
  12. Sorry that wasn't me. I can assure you it wasn't based upon two factors.

    1) I do not race the WTCC class ever. (Today was actually the first day I tried one of them because the only way it seem I will be a premium member is to join in on what is actually raced here, WTCC.)

    and

    2) Me in 2nd is not happening, LOL. Maybe 2nd to last?!?!?! hahaha

    More on topic now. I was trying out the R8 last night with my own setup. I think I am getting better thanks to help here. That R8 STICKS TO THE ROAD!!! To bad it just lacks torque.
     
  13. I just went from 6:58 to 6:56...weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    What I did was to download a hotlap from another racer that had a lower time but had the same car like me.

    I followed his line to the letter and then on the other laps I decided to improvise upon his racing line.

    Car setup was the same by the way. It is a slow battle but I am getting there.
    I do need however to further tweak my car.

    In general what I noticed was if I go in slow in a turn and I keep a steady speed while taking the turn, I can exit the corner like crazy. I used to go into a corner very fast and thus lose speed in the meanwhile.
     
  14. im start to training also with ghost car and a raceline from another driver
    i hope it helps but also i see i have to find my own style to brake and drive the car.
    With some downloads from really good drivers i have no change to drive a good round
    so for me its clear drive, drive, drive and for sure i get faster.
    the problem only is im 45 years old means i have not enough time to get fast enough for racing hahaha
     
  15. Paul Newman won a championship in his 70's ;)
    Never too late
     
  16. haha maybe thew guys around him respect him so much nobody like to overtake him??
     
  17. Age is nothing, just look at Warren, he is in his young late 50-s, and sweeps around the majority of the young folks. :)
     
  18. okok i see i cant excuse my slowly driving because my age hmmm means i have to find another reason. Oh Attila nice to meet you again sometimes i try to drive with your set up but really im not succesfull you think it can be that my drivinf style is much different so it will not work?
     
  19. Yes, of course it can be pretty much the cause, personal setups are pretty much suited to someones driving style, and by no means it must fit other people.

    I think that downloading others people setup can be useful in 2 ways:
    1 - you are getting lucky, and the setup fits you
    2 - you are trying the setup, look at it how it feels, and by examining it compared to yours, you try to figure out what does the difference in the feeling

    I think you can learn a lot from looking at other people setups, maybe you see some eye opening new things how you can set your car, but the best setup for yourself will be always what you make for you by your own.
     
  20. surely at the beginning it was really usefull and now also
    but not in any case i mean when i take your setup because i like the chevrolet i slide much haha but your motortuning is very good for me
    best will be i meet you on the track and try to follow or you follow me and tell me what i do wrong hey is this service available? haha