Looking for someone to optimize AIWs for Vintage Car and Tracks in SHO PnG Retrofit

[Shovas]

Would anyone with AIW waypoint/pathing expertise be interested in optimizing AIWs for AI for the vintage cars and tracks in the SHO PnG Retrofit mod?

The hurdle that has been frustrating me so far is reliable AI racing without pileups, crashes, flying off track, getting out of pits, etc. The cars and tracks are so good but the racing lets it down right now.

I have one lead about a guy still doing AIW stuff I noticed from an update on The Shortring.

If anyone knows someone still doing AIW optimization can you let me know?

Thanks

 

[MJQT]

I have a moderate amount of experience doing AIW editing, and have done a lot of research on the editor tools available and the meaning of various parameters in the AIW file. I've most recently been messing around with some AIW files for tracks in Automobilista 1 for private purposes.

I'd honestly be glad to be working towards improving a larger-scope project, instead of directionless a-bit-here-and-a-bit-there private projects. I can't promise that I can fix every issue perfectly, but I'd be happy to help!

 

[Shovas]

I have a moderate amount of experience doing AIW editing, and have done a lot of research on the editor tools available and the meaning of various parameters in the AIW file. I've most recently been messing around with some AIW files for tracks in Automobilista 1 for private purposes.

I'd honestly be glad to be working towards improving a larger-scope project, instead of directionless a-bit-here-and-a-bit-there private projects. I can't promise that I can fix every issue perfectly, but I'd be happy to help!

The real issue I think is with the waypoints. I know a bit about the other global parameters in AIWs but I don't think any of them will make much of a difference for me.

If you think you can help, all the tracks are included in the SHO PnG Retrofit mod.

You can see within 30sec of this Ingliston video how messed up the cars can get:

https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/sho-png-retrofit.52141/updates#resource-update-96159

Here's another video at Thruxton where in the first minute you'll see cars going wide and bunching up/piling up (maybe expected on the first lap but it's still overly much on this an other tracks for the PnG cars on these tracks). Sometimes cars go up on two wheels unrealistically (~1:02). Lots of issues on the back stretch (~1:20).

https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/sho-png-retrofit.52141/update/97180/

I have other videos in those updates and a few of them highlight that the AI are just a little too dumb.

I'll send you a pm, too.

 

[MJQT]

Thank you for these videos! It's very useful to have visual examples of what you're hoping to fix.

The real issue I think is with the waypoints. I know a bit about the other global parameters in AIWs but I don't think any of them will make much of a difference for me.

I'm experienced with changing the line the AI follow around the track by moving the waypoints and with changing the "corridors" within which the AI race. These tweaks fix most issues. It can be fiddly to get the line just right, but it's mostly doable. There are situations where the AI will behave strangely no matter what you do, but it's fairly rare.

I can imagine there may also be spots where I need to "slow down" the AI's speed at a waypoint to prevent them overspeeding on corner entry and yeeting off the track – especially since they're in lower grip historic cars. There are ways to do this in the AIW, but I've not yet done this myself, so I'll need to consult with others. Optimizing the amount of the available cornering grip the AI use in the PLR file could possibly help as well (or the AIPerfUsage parameter in the vehicle's HDC file, which does the same thing per-car).

Should you be interested in learning to edit AIWs yourself over time, this thread below will be of great interest to you. I anticipate learning a couple new things from it myself!

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/monaco-1979-aiw-and-talent-files.258578/

If you think you can help, all the tracks are included in the SHO PnG Retrofit mod.

Fantastic. I'll be sure to set up a clean GTR2 Power and Glory install with your awesome Retrofit mod. Probably a task for this coming weekend or next week – in a busy period in real life at the moment.

I'll send you a pm, too.

Received!

 

[jgf]

Have you tried tweaking the cornering abilities in the talent files? I've found this to cure many reckless AI issues, particularly spinning mid-corner or on exit.

 

[Shovas]

I hadn't thought of that. I've been operating under the assumption that these P&G cars work properly on stock tracks so it must not be a car or talent issue...but that's just an assumption so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Shovas]

Thank you for these videos! It's very useful to have visual examples of what you're hoping to fix.

Should you be interested in learning to edit AIWs yourself over time, this thread below will be of great interest to you. I anticipate learning a couple new things from it myself!

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/monaco-1979-aiw-and-talent-files.258578/

Great to hear, thank you! I'm reading that thread.

I randomly tried asking ChatGPT about AIW editing and it knows quite a bit lol even down to parameters and their descriptions, although I have feeling it's missing quite a few. It also knows what tools to use and what functionality they provide. Might be worth digging into ChatGPT for someone who knows AIWs to see how much it knows and can help.

 

[MJQT]

I randomly tried asking ChatGPT about AIW editing and it knows quite a bit lol even down to parameters and their descriptions, although I have feeling it's missing quite a few. It also knows what tools to use and what functionality they provide. Might be worth digging into ChatGPT for someone who knows AIWs to see how much it knows and can help.

That's really interesting! Thanks for the info.

When I decided to make the documentation website, it was because I wanted to create a centralized place to find accurate (or as close as possible to it ) information about AI stuff. But almost none of what I put on the site is from my own personal discoveries – I dug up as many of the multitude of forum posts and documents scattered across the internet as I could, and tried to piece together what was true and what wasn't. Since ChatGPT is basically trained on the entire internet up to a year ago or so AFAIK, I would presume it also is "aware" of these bits and bobs across the web and is regurgitating them as best it can (and "making up" what it doesn't "know" ). I don't think it's seen the docs site itself... yet... but that's only a matter of time, surely.

 

[Shovas]

I like your documentation website. I'm glad you've included things people have posted on the forums.

ChatGPT keeps saying its data only goes up to 2021 sometime so not sure if it knows about it or not. But I'm sure it will when they retrain it.

Currently trying to boot up my stock PnG install and having some trouble but will hopefully have some details about where the AI do well and do poorly on stock tracks and Retrofit tracks.

 

[Shovas]

Notes from testing original P&G cars on original GTR2 tracks:

- Tested original P&G cars against original GTR2 tracks to see if they were as wild as they are on Retrofit tracks (230511).
- Tested Donington GP 2004, Hockenheim Short, and Valencia GP.
- They're not wild, they drive relatively well.
- Tells me something is up with Retrofit AIW files.
- Confirmed PLR AI params match so it's not a case of aggressive AI, for example.
- Confirmed Gr 2 (lighter, slower cars) vs Gr 5 (heavier, faster cars) doesn't make much difference: Gr 5 is a little more aggressive changing lines, for instance, but still very raceable.

Going to start testing P&G cars on Retrofit tracks and document bad AI behaviour on each.

 

[Shovas]

Some more testing results against Retrofit tracks. Very clear and obvious issues. Just setup any race, fill the grid, ignore practice or qualifying, you'll see issues.

- [AI] Tested P&G cars against Retrofit Tracks (230511)
  - Testing notes: Max grid size (but not red), start at back, stay last for lap 1 and observe AI, starting pushing on lap 2, take a fast car so you can move up the grid and feel what it's like to race AI door-to-door to see how they behave
  - Aintree 1960s 60's Gr2:
    - Too much congestion and bumping right off the start although not a big deal
    - Last sector chicane causes AI trouble, they run into the barrier or hit each other, big issue
    - Odd crashes can happen at certain places (stretch just after first corner) causing other cars to hit the crashed car and it becomes more of a problem than it should, sort of annoying
    - Otherwise good racing actually
  - Aintree 1960s 70's Gr2:
    - Last sector chicane cars tend to go off wide too much
    - Last corner causes pileups, oh yeah big train pileup
  - Brands Hatch 1970s 60s Gr 2:
    - After the corner after the bridge in the back section, cars sometimes go off track heavily and cause a lot of cars to slow down
    - OK otherwise
  - Brands Hatch 1970s 70s Gr 2:
    - OK surprisingly
  - Croft 1990s 60s Gr 2:
    - Complete wreck, cars flying and rolling, on the Ss right after the starting straigth right on lap 1
    - Same kind of flying off the track, rolling, wrecking on the wide sweeper turn after the back straight. Seems to be car physics going wonky more than going too fast.
    - Same issue flying off track on the last wide sweeper in the last sector
    - Cars sometimes hit wall on the very last turn before the front straight
  - Croft 1990s 70s Gr 2:
    - Same L1 T1 stuff, suspect same issues as 60s Gr 2 but maybe worse as cars have more power
    - It's sort of like gravity is slightly less somehow on this track. Or maybe grip levels are artificially too high.

 

[deangelis7]

Notes from testing original P&G cars on original GTR2 tracks:

hi Shovas. I think problem is not AIW lines (or not only AIW). I played a lot PnG with AI and can say that PnG AI definitely has some serious problems with physics and handling. Sometimes PnG AI struggle with understeer and drive wide off the track borders in the corners, sometimes they lose control and spin out in certain corners, sometimes they bouncing and flipping like crazy, sometimes they even can't leave pit-box and stay there all P/Q sessions etc. It doesn't happen to all PnG cars, some cars AI drive well but have problems with others. From what I remember I had problems for example on original Oschersleben track with PnG AI behaviour in chicanes (Chevrolet Corvette spin out). So I think there's problem with mod and AI PnG physics, not just AIW

 

[jgf]

A couple of issues I've noticed with isi sims across the board - AI have trouble with "high power/low grip" cars (I've encountered some mods that were probably only useful for online racing); and if the AIW file was created using a specific type car, F1 for example, it may not work well with other cars that aren't similar.

Cars not leaving the pits is often an issue with the eng file, edit them to raise the torque around the idle rpm slightly, this will get them moving without affecting actual race performance (Tom's Engine Shop makes this easy). I recall the IROC Porsches in P&G had this problem. (OTOH virtually every mod I've tried at Clermont has pit issues and nothing seems to work here, I think it has to do with basic track physics and the pits being along the crest of a slight hill; cars at either end of the pits will leave, those near the center won't move even if you give them a push.)

I know little of the AIW editor (just learning to use it) but too much crashing in a turn can often be alleviated by narrowing the track boundaries just ahead of that turn, this causes the AI to slow earlier and space out more. This also helps with running wide on turn exit.

And occasionally you must balance the AI between the overall AI adjustment, in-game or via AIW settings, and the cornering abilities in the talent files. Increasing the overall AI can eventually make them "think they are better than they are" and be too fast in the turns; so slow their cornering ability then raise the overall AI strength, this has the effect of increasing the straight line speed.

 

[Shovas]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.

I was worried the physics issued might be baked into the cars but I hope not since it seems like they must have worked well on most original GTR2 tracks although I see deangelis7 has some issues on some tracks.

I'm sure these tips will come in handy.

 

[MJQT]

Just wanted to come back to this thread briefly to give an update.

Over the past month or two, I've grown frustrated at tweaking isiMotor AI. I've felt "burnt out", not enjoying investing significant time not driving and then not achieving the results I want. Since I wasn't having fun, I have spent less time on sim racing – and when I have played, I've usually focused on enjoying myself in games like RallySimFans RBR, NR2003, or ACC that require no tweaking.

As some of you probably have already realized, I will always enjoy the intellectual challenge of learning new things and researching unknown aspects (see for example this thread) but recently I simply haven't enjoyed the "manual fiddling" required to improve AI lines. Perhaps I'm more of a "scientist" than an "engineer"

Anyhow, for the time being, I won't be contributing to this project. Sorry about this! Perhaps I will regain interest in working on this in the future, and I'll be sure to let you know if I do.

 

[Shovas]

No problem, MJQT, I have bouts of interest and disinterest, as well. My disinterest phases usually stem from not having adequate solutions to problems I've identified. Eventually I come back if I have new ideas. It's normal. You have to enjoy yourself so no worries

And thanks for the work on the git-lab docs. I still have that tab open and check it out from time to time.

 

[Shovas]

hi Shovas. I think problem is not AIW lines (or not only AIW). I played a lot PnG with AI and can say that PnG AI definitely has some serious problems with physics and handling. Sometimes PnG AI struggle with understeer and drive wide off the track borders in the corners, sometimes they lose control and spin out in certain corners, sometimes they bouncing and flipping like crazy, sometimes they even can't leave pit-box and stay there all P/Q sessions etc. It doesn't happen to all PnG cars, some cars AI drive well but have problems with others. From what I remember I had problems for example on original Oschersleben track with PnG AI behaviour in chicanes (Chevrolet Corvette spin out). So I think there's problem with mod and AI PnG physics, not just AIW

Just rereading this again. Thanks for writing this. I was suspicious when I first read it but now I think you're right. As mentioned, GTR2 doesn't seemed to be tuned for high power/low grip cars like P&G has. The good thing is that it narrows things down to focusing on grip and acceleration parameters.