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LeoFFB plugin for GSC

Discussion in 'Stock Car Extreme' started by Fernando Zart, Oct 3, 2011.

  1. Thank you for sharing.

    I have tested a mix realfeel/Leo and I didn't like it.
    I will try with only Leo.
  2. To be honest I prefer the realfeel.
    FFB is a little stronger but I loose my feeling of the roads. Many bumps of the roads have vanished with the plugin...

    In fact, it is a question of taste. The interest of the GSC tracks are all the bumps very well modelised and feeled with the realfeel. So, it is a pity to loose them... ;-)

    Test it to see by yourself.
  3. Alex Sawczuk

    Alex Sawczuk
    Reiza Studios Premium Member

    The realfeel we have had leoFFB code integrated into it, so this is fairly pointless.
  4. Interesting replies. Alex, did you try the Leoffb with the associated .ini? Good to know that this Realfeel has Leoffb "inside" it.

    I did find two things:

    a) if you put the Leoffb.ini in the root folder, the FFB is less strong and you can feel the bumps of the road (perhaps not so strongly as the original, but they are there). If you put Leoffb.ini in Plugins folder, the FFB gets heavier and then you really loose the details (bumps, etc). I do not recommend to put the Leoffb.ini in the Plugins folder.

    b) With the original realfeel (even if it has leoffb code into it - don't know about the "mix" percentage used) I can turn the wheel suddenly all the way to one side entering a corner in excess speed, and "see" the car going straight with tires screaming, but the wheel doesn't get any lighter indicating that the tires have lost grip. So, I can feel every bump and this is nice, but I can't feel the grip so well. With Leoffb only, this grip feel is *very* noticeable, and the bumps are very good too. In fact, Leoffb helps me to drive on the grip limit all the time. Using realfeel I've never won any race against AI. First two races with LeoFFB ended right away in one victory and one second place (10 min, starting from back of the grid, no help at all, cockpit only, 15 cars). Better grip feel, better handling = win.

    Today I found that I've made a mistake and tried to mix the Realfeel and LeoFFB using LEFT CTRL+1/3, but in fact you must use RIGHT CTRL+1 or 3 to make this work. Right now, I'm using them at 50% each, and I guess I found a sweet spot (bumps AND more pronounced grip feeling).

    All that I can say is "try it". It's a matter of personal taste, I know, but the test takes only a few minutes, and may make a huge difference for some, as did for me.
  5. Alex Sawczuk

    Alex Sawczuk
    Reiza Studios Premium Member

  6. Have tried with realfeel @ 100% and the leoffb on (so I didn't removed the realfeel.dll).

    Handling is better now.
    - bumps are feeled like before
    - FFB is stronger at low and middle speeds
    - you feel the loose of front wheels at the limits stronger than before.

    I think Joker is right for the performances. I have tried 2 laps on Interlagos and I beat my laptime of 1/10 sec...

    Overall, it is more pleasant to drive. I keep it...
  7. Niels_at_home

    Reiza Studios

    You can experiment with the FFB that is no problem. But my experience is, once people start tweaking their LeoFFB file, you get the most random numbers. If you like it, fine, but do understand that:
    - FFB settings don't improve laptimes, perhaps they help YOU but that says nothing about others!
    - G25 type FFB is pretty weak and the placebo effect of changing something and ''Now it is much better!" should not be underestimated!

    I would say stick to the FFB we supply, which already causes clipping. So any settings you use that make the steering 'heavier' don't make it heavier, they just mean you get even more clipping and loose a lot of fidelity. What may feel 'firm' and 'stronger' can only mean that the initial FFB is higher, which only means it will clip sooner.

    So feel free to experiment but it doesn't make you faster, and its unlikely to really be 'better'!
  8. You are right Niels, Placebo exists. Changing something can make the mind thinking there is a difference even if there is not.

    My experience was simple. I put or I deleted the leoffb at each session of driving.

    Since I bought GSC, I ran 1800 laps with the realfeel plugin and 20 laps with the realfeel+leo.
    Perhaps it is my imagination but I am sure, at this time and after the 21 more laps, that :
    - ffb is stronger, but only at low and medium speed
    - I feel better the loss of grip at the limits of driving (no strenght in direction clearly feeled).

    I ran 192 laps on Interlagos and only with 2 laps I beat my time. Perhaps it is a coincidence. I can't really say...

    Everybody can test this easily. Perhaps I am wrong with my interpretation...
  9. You can eliminate the placebo effect by changing the percentages on the fly during a lap, so you can feel the difference right away.
    As for the lap times, I disagree. Better FFB (feeling) *can* improve your laps, as it will let you drive on limit more consistently. And by better feeling I don't mean stronger FFB, instead: good FFB must be rich (bumps, grip), not heavy and dull. My experience was like Patlezinc described: better results right away after trying this (which is why I decided to publish).

    It would be nice to have a feature like NetKar, where you can see the amount of FFB being sent to the wheel, and tune the force until you don't see clippings (kinda like tuning gears for a race, at the worst bump you tune it to be the higher point, and then you can feel everything without clipping).

    Just a note: the .ini was made taking into account the specific values inside the .pm and .hdv files that describe the car, not just throwing some numbers. Leoffb must be tuned for every car to achieve good results. Our luck is that Stock is all about the same car, so one size fits all here. :cool:
  10. Hi Patlezinc,

    You reported that you are using 100% realfeel and leoffb, and is feeling the wheels slipping and better/stronger ffb.
    Just curious: where did you put your leoffb.ini in the end? I'm using mine at the game's root folder, as using it into the Plugins folder make the FFB very heavy/dull.

    Oh, are you using a G25 or another wheel?

    I forgot to publish the settings inside the Logitech profiler and game... maybe some of us are having different results due to different setups.

    Inside Logitech Profiler: overall, spring and damper at 100%, centering spring 0% and 540 degrees. Was using spring and damper at zero before, but now it seems to be better.
    Inside the game, full FFB effects, -100%.
  11. I put the leo.ini in the root.
    I use a G25 (tested a G27 two days but too smooth for me... I prefer the brutality of the G25...).
    -100% ffb. All to defaults in the Windows controller setup and no logitech profiler. 215° for the wheel.
  12. Interesting conversation... I use a Fanatec and I have tried Jokers suggestions but so far I haven't achieved anything I would call an improvement. Not that the games original FFB settings really required any "improvements" for me at least. I also found Niels thread about toning down FFB from 100% interesting and helpfull. Tweaking FFB settings has however led me to discover better effects in other sims such as Rfactor and Race series... Good job all on the ideas, food for thought, and the expert advice/opinions...
  13. Found something searching the net after Alex said that realfeel was using Leoffb code inside it:

    This is a bit of a fudge that when set above zero will provide an additional steering force reduction when the front tyres are sliding. Maximum recommended value is 1.0 which will provide a 100% drop in force when 100% of the contact patch is sliding.

    In fact, altering this parameter to something like 0.8 I was able to feel what I was feeling with LeoFFB. Right now, I'm experimenting with values... I may settle with 0.5, which I think is a good compromise.


    DefaultKf, Ks, A & Kr
    I have implemented Leo’s “Parking Lot” FFB code which now cuts in when vehicle speed is below ‘MinSpeed’ as defined in the RealFeel ini. Quite what the various parameters mean I’m not too sure as it’s just a copy of Leo’s code.

    I suspect this has something to do with the parameters inside Leoffb.ini, so it would be important that these numbers are taken right, not just guessed. Will experiment whith them too, but I think that this wouldn't be of much difference since this only kicks in on lower speeds.

    So, to sum it all, I think that I don't need the LeoFFB anymore, since I can get the same results just tweaking the FrontGripEffect parameter.
  14. Can you copy and paste your realfeel.ini plz?
  15. Here we go, pretty much standard values, except for the FrontGrip (still under test). Didn't change Kf, Ks, A and Kr as I''m still researching what they mean exactly:

    [StockCar V8]
    [Test #1]
    [Goodyear Pr]
  16. Ok. Thank you.
    The ffb can't be stronger. I tried to put 150% in the Windows panel, no good results...
  17. Niels_at_home

    Reiza Studios

    Hey guys,

    Before the latest version of Realfeel, it made sense to use LeoFFB as his plugin allowed a more realistic drop off of force feedback at high slip angles. The disadvantage of LeoFFB is that it doesn't use the suspension geometry part of the forces in real time, so it uses some static caster effect.

    With GSC we have a new version of Realfeel thanks to TechAde! It has all of the advantages of LeoFFB without the drawbacks. The FrontGripEffect is a very good way to control the drop in forces at high slip angles, it is physics based, not a fudge factor. It works on tire model 'slip calculations', and you just set the amount between 0 and 1. So now RealFeel gives you real time effects of caster and jacking and all the clever suspension stuff, as well as believable ffb from the tires.

    That means I see absolutely no reason to use LeoFFB anymore!

    The only things we have from the LeoFFB plugin are the Kf Ks A and Kr values, which are only meant to work at really low speeds, so when you're in the pits the wheel feels heavy. These are NOT important once you're driving, so you can leave them at the defaults we provide with GSC.

    Once you start tweaking LeoFFB you quickly get pretty odd results, and mixing it with RealFeel etc is a recipy for strange behaviour. Thats my 2 cents anyway!
  18. Thanks for your comments, Niels

    First I tried to calculate the correct parameters for LeoFFB based on car's definition inside the game, just to see if I could improve the feeling. Then I discovered that I could in fact enhance the feeling of loosing grip using both plugins. Moving forward after knowing that LeoFFB code was included into new RealFeel plugin, some tests unveiled the FrontGripEffect, and since then I agree that there's no need to use LeoFFB (just tweak the FrontGripEffect to your taste).

    In the end, I think this thread is nice for those who want to understand a little bit more about how the FFB works on GSC.
    Like they say: "Keep Walking" :)