Le Mans Virtual 24 hours was an EMBARRASSMENT for simracing

[FriendOfJah]

Another nail in the coffin for MotorSports Games as the number 1 driver in the world quits in disgust and even plans on uninstalling rF2 from his PC.

 

[Shovas]

What a shame

iRacing was an embarrassment for years too but having so many endurance events they finally mostly iterated their way out of event destroying issues

I like Le Mans being on rFactor2 but they should probably lose the license after so many years of issues

At least until they demonstrate with many more endurance events that they have the knowledge and expertise to pull it off reliably

It just takes doing it, over and over

 

[Shovas]

Good that he mentions the ACC ddos issues last year

 

[Dzul]

I enjoyed watching the race although it was a true shame (and a big lesson) that two server fails and other gremlins cast a shadow on an event that is supposed to be a very important hallmark in simracing. The fact that MSG holds an iron grip on the Le Mans franchise but fails to improve the platform where it runs it says a lot about their focus. I call it "monetizing nostalgia". Because rFactor 2 is a beloved sim but it's obvious it cannot hold up to the required hosting and broadcasting needs of a simracing event of this magnitude. There is a lot of noise about moving these events to iRacing, and that surely may be beter with regards to netcode and broadcasting, but I believe we are too much in love with these ageing sim titles to realise we need a new platform that can hold up to the needs of such events in the current age of streaming. And when I say needs I mean not just the stability of the netcode and enough cameras to provide commentators with material to talk about, but also a more free and participatory way to enjoy the race for those of us watching. An example of what I mean is the F1TV Pro app, it allows users to play about with all available input, from data to cameras. I don't have to wait for the broadcast to show me something, I can click somewhere and I get on screen what I want to see. Of course it can be done better (their UI is still cumbersome) but it is this kind of personalisation what takes the experience of watching a race (or any other event) further than the current 'old school' broadcast format. I would very much advise the guys at Rennsport to take notice and make this a priority, because simulating cars and tracks is not where the edge lies for new simracing titles anymore, IMHO. I believe the edge lies now on how good a title can get races organised and broadcasted, allowing viewers a degree of freedom in the way they can watch those events. My 2 cents.

 

[vitorhs]

Ahn? RF2 is broken? **Insert a shocked face here**

I know, the "BuT tHe PhYsIcS aRe GrEaT" army will come very soon but...

Maybe now people will understand that RaceSims needs to be more than hot lap simulators and be a great video game (service) first and then foucusing in the small details.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

This is probably coming across as some nitpicking, and I'm sorry for that, not the intention.

Another nail in the coffin for MotorSports Games as the number 1 driver in the world quits in disgust and even plans on uninstalling rF2 from his PC.

Didn't Verstappen say he'd never do rF2 again after the lockdown Le Mans in 2020 as well? As he didn't like it compared to iRacing - and the fact that they again retired due to something technical stuff?

I like Le Mans being on rFactor2 but they should probably lose the license after so many years of issues

At least until they demonstrate with many more endurance events that they have the knowledge and expertise to pull it off reliably

It just takes doing it, over and over

You mean like The 2022 Virtual Le Mans 24hrs that had no issues? Or the VLMS seasons that's been done with endurance racing on the WEC tracks? Also no issues like this.
If nothing else, that gives a tiny bit of creditbility of the claims from S397 & The organizers that it was some sort of "hacker" thing happening. Because they have done loads of big endurance events without issues the last 18 months.

I enjoyed watching the race although it was a true shame (and a big lesson) that two server fails and other gremlins cast a shadow on an event that is supposed to be a very important hallmark in simracing. The fact that MSG holds an iron grip on the Le Mans franchise but fails to improve the platform where it runs it says a lot about their focus. I call it "monetizing nostalgia". Because rFactor 2 is a beloved sim but it's obvious it cannot hold up to the required hosting and broadcasting needs of a simracing event of this magnitude. There is a lot of noise about moving these events to iRacing, and that surely may be beter with regards to netcode and broadcasting, but I believe we are too much in love with these ageing sim titles to realise we need a new platform that can hold up to the needs of such events in the current age of streaming. And when I say needs I mean not just the stability of the netcode and enough cameras to provide commentators with material to talk about, but also a more free and participatory way to enjoy the race for those of us watching. An example of what I mean is the F1TV Pro app, it allows users to play about with all available input, from data to cameras. I don't have to wait for the broadcast to show me something, I can click somewhere and I get on screen what I want to see. Of course it can be done better (their UI is still cumbersome) but it is this kind of personalisation what takes the experience of watching a race (or any other event) further than the current 'old school' broadcast format. I would very much advise the guys at Rennsport to take notice and make this a priority, because simulating cars and tracks is not where the edge lies for new simracing titles anymore, IMHO. I believe the edge lies now on how good a title can get races organised and broadcasted, allowing viewers a degree of freedom in the way they can watch those events. My 2 cents.

What you are talking about is more how it looks to watch, but what are people wanting to drive? Something that looks good on a broadcast, or something that drives realistically?
Reg. netcode, the netcode in rF2 is in many ways better than iRacing, in the sense that you don't really have to fear the famous "touch without touching" and massive accidents from small touches that can happen in iRacing. rF2 actually makes it possible to rub, bump and do proper touring car racing without being afraid of a netcode hiccup creating an accident.

The past two seasons of VLMS, shows that the stability is there as well. It's not like there is big issues hosting large events on rF2. It was at the flagship event now, but it's not a typical rF2 thing, and luckily hasn't been for a few years.

 

[Dzul]

What you are talking about is more how it looks to watch, but what are people wanting to drive? Something that looks good on a broadcast, or something that drives realistically?

Well, if it were up to my nostalgia I'd be waving the GTR2 flag haha!

But what I am actually trying to say is that I believe we need a sim that can do all of it, to current standards and future proof. And that neither rFactor2 or iRacing have the legs for the long run. ACC or AMS2 perhaps? Don't know.

I am in hopes that Rennsport or AC2 can pick up on that estafette and deliver on all fronts: realistic physics & graphics, solid netcode, reliable event-making and flexible streaming (and modding ofc.).

Wouldn't that be swell?

 

[Emery]

I am in hopes that Rennsport or AC2 can pick up on that estafette and deliver on all fronts: realistic physics & graphics, solid netcode, reliable event-making and flexible streaming (and modding ofc.).

Wouldn't that be swell?

Has anyone really created netcode that can survive a DOS attack? AFAIK, anything that is DOS-proof always has a brief delay while it changes routing and that brief delay is probably enough of a hiccup to kill all real-time apps like simracing.

 

[Durge Driven]

What's the posters name, right your ignored. lol
10 years people say this, they know this but just can't let it go, like a mongrel dog with a stinky old bone.
Why what is it makes rF2 whinners keep going year after year.
Obviously something rubs them the wrong way, that is why they can't stop, must be. Is it because some other people and servers have no issues running rooms and leagues. Is it some people here enjoy rF2, like 10% 1 driver in 10 and you still have to ride them. That must bother you or something or you just gluttons for punishment, like ulcers ?
To have such a long standing negative disposition is not good for your health.
Anyways, pathetic to kick a dog while they are down and barely kicking.
You feel nothing for the people just trying to make a living to put kids through school.
No class.

What is a embarrassment to the sim industry is whiny littles bitches.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Well, if it were up to my nostalgia I'd be waving the GTR2 flag haha!

But what I am actually trying to say is that I believe we need a sim that can do all of it, to current standards and future proof. And that neither rFactor2 or iRacing have the legs for the long run. ACC or AMS2 perhaps? Don't know.

I am in hopes that Rennsport or AC2 can pick up on that estafette and deliver on all fronts: realistic physics & graphics, solid netcode, reliable event-making and flexible streaming (and modding ofc.).

Wouldn't that be swell?

With maximum nostalgia, I'd go back to Sports Car GT and single player

True. ACC... maybe, but too limited content. AMS2 is limited by the engine, also, their online racing solution is P2P... When we did a 90min Gr.C & GT at RD, approx 15 min from the end of the race 8-9 people dropped out due to that. If anything, AMS2 is the worst to have a stable long race on sadly.

It would be, but there is a chance that AC2 will end up with the rF2 problem when it comes to modding, too complicated. That's how it is when there are a lot of simulations and moving parts going on. It takes a lot more time to fine tune modding. rF1, AMS1 and AC have it much easier that way.

I've spent the last 30 months hosting well over 100 rF2 events, so I know about the vast amount of options you got in rF2 server wise, and I think that it is still the game where you can customize the experience the most in terms of different rules and types of racing.
Also, while we've not done any endurance-racing here for some years, rF2 were a stable and good platform back then - and it has been in VLMS this season.

 

[Owen Pyrah]

Meanwhile (ignoring similar problems in other sims), we've been watching all these weird damage model and netcode problems during the Daytona 24 (https://www.reddit.com/r/iRacing/co.../?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Yes, it's embarrassing as at the end of the day it makes us look like we're all playing games on toy steering wheels. And absolutely it must have been really frustrating for all involved.

But why as a community does everyone hop on the bandwagon? Was the same with the grass dipping recently at Spa. Or the iRacing server issues on the event before that. Or the last time Le Mans had issues on rF2. People getting irate for the sake of getting irate. After the grass dipping thing all I thought was "nice, hopefully they'll have another look at the tyre model". It didn't hurt me so there was no need to complain heavily about it. But so many acted like the world was over and that was the end of iRacing. Well it's still here, things move on.

 

[MarcG]

1. Max is a cry baby, anyways has been always will be. But during his toy throwing he did bring up some valid points, the thing is he knows he has an audience that will follow him off a cliff and hang onto every word he says whether he's right or wrong.
2. This isn't the first time this event has been plagued by disconnects, happens every year, it's a serious problem that needed resolving years ago.
3. DDOS attacks by Sim racers on Sim racers, that's what it's come too. Some pathetic individuals doing it for fun & glory, unfortunately it fits with the way the world is right now so it doesn't really surprise me.
4. If anything it goes to show that motor racing eSports is still a baby, the sudden surge and popularity explosion in 2020 was great but now we're feeling the after effects of not preparing for these events well enough. Lessons must be learnt, improvements must be made, otherwise it'll be the same **** different year over and over again.

 

[Gevatter]

Max is a cry baby, anyways has been always will be.

Yes, but I somewhat understand him. Going by what Jimmy Broadbent says in his video on the matter, there is an entry fee of around 2000 dollars, and Max' team invested several months of preparation only to loose 2 laps (which seemingly means going from first to 14th or 15th) due to a random disconnect and not getting their laps back from race control.

 

[Owen Pyrah]

1. Max is a cry baby, anyways has been always will be. But during his toy throwing he did bring up some valid points, the thing is he knows he has an audience that will follow him off a cliff and hang onto every word he says whether he's right or wrong.
2. This isn't the first time this event has been plagued by disconnects, happens every year, it's a serious problem that needed resolving years ago.
3. DDOS attacks by Sim racers on Sim racers, that's what it's come too. Some pathetic individuals doing it for fun & glory, unfortunately it fits with the way the world is right now so it doesn't really surprise me.
4. If anything it goes to show that motor racing eSports is still a baby, the sudden surge and popularity explosion in 2020 was great but now we're feeling the after effects of not preparing for these events well enough. Lessons must be learnt, improvements must be made, otherwise it'll be the same **** different year over and over again.

If anything it goes to show that motor racing eSports is still a baby, the sudden surge and popularity explosion in 2020 was great but now we're feeling the after effects of not preparing for these events well enough.

It's very quickly gone from a handful of people who are all after a good race to

DDOS attacks by Sim racers on Sim racers

having a huge increase in interest in a short space of time. Where before you could trust a bunch of drivers on the grid to behave and follow the rules, there's now that many players that there's enough of us to have factions and in-fighting.

Think that was my point really. People get so tribal about this that to say a small group of neckbeards DDOS'd a high profile event to try and further their own tribe, I would just sigh and be disappointed. Like the way people act it's not even surprising. Just disgusting. Make a mockery of the sport and you attack the sport itself, not just the other team.

Regardless of 'teams'. Which I think is a bit silly anyway. But like when iRacing messes up, people who prefer other sims shouldn't be crowing about that either. Or when ACC had their DDOS attack. Even if you've never played a sim, you should feel disappointment and not elation to hear news like this. And I've seen too many on the internet saying they were really happy it happened, especially as it happened to Max so it gets more publicity.

 

[Jim Layee]

Has anyone really created netcode that can survive a DOS attack? AFAIK, anything that is DOS-proof always has a brief delay while it changes routing and that brief delay is probably enough of a hiccup to kill all real-time apps like simracing.

Cloudfare will do that but it adds to the costs

 

[Owen Pyrah]

Cloudfare will do that but it adds to the costs

Aaron from iRacing forums posted this regarding Steve Myers and DDoS 8 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/iRacing/comments/2zp028/ddos_attack/ I think even today they are still dealing with this type of attack. Though fortunately they look to have got very good at it.

What is interesting is that our normal traffic has the signature of a DDoS Attack. Our service is different than most, and our traffic patterns are not what the services are optimized to deal with.

So out of the box solutions don't really exist for sim racing. You have to be a bit clever because everything is configured for DDoS against websites.

Another user noted that each of these recent DDoS have occurred before the NIS Open race, leading ot suspicions that a banned user with a chip on their shoulder may be the cause.

Targeted attacks are always going to be more tricky to deal with than your run of the mill 'av a go' attacks. Much like spear phishing is more effective than typical phishing that most can smell a mile away.

Anyways, people are jerks.

That's the sad thing about this. It's sim racers attacking other sim racers. It's enthusiasts attacking other enthusiasts and wanting to see other sims burn. The real loser is the sport.

 

[Jim Layee]

Aaron from iRacing forums posted this regarding Steve Myers and DDoS 8 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/iRacing/comments/2zp028/ddos_attack/ I think even today they are still dealing with this type of attack. Though fortunately they look to have got very good at it.


So out of the box solutions don't really exist for sim racing. You have to be a bit clever because everything is configured for DDoS against websites.


Targeted attacks are always going to be more tricky to deal with than your run of the mill 'av a go' attacks. Much like spear phishing is more effective than typical phishing that most can smell a mile away.


That's the sad thing about this. It's sim racers attacking other sim racers. It's enthusiasts attacking other enthusiasts and wanting to see other sims burn. The real loser is the sport.

Iracing use Cloudflare and have done for quite a while

 

[Dzul]

Well, I'd take the opinion of Jimmy to a higher regard than that of Max or RC due to the fact that he has been simracing for over a decade and has participated in all previous LMV races and other endurance events across several platforms. It's not "gospel" but it is an informed opinion that I happen to agree with. Is there any more information on the DDOS attacks from this weekend? Evidence that was done by other 'simracers'? That is quite a low blow if it's true.

 

[Enagee]

 

[Emery]

“After an initial investigation, it seems that some race competitors accidentally shared to the public the IP addresses connecting them to the server, which is not supposed to happen.”

Every entrant, driver or team, who was competing in the virtual motorsport event was able to live stream their own perspectives, alongside the main TV, OTT and YouTube broadcast.

It is believed that the information was shared unwittingly, before being capped and shared around Discord servers and social media platforms.

“This put us in a weakened position, and we were subjected to some security breaches which caused the global disconnection of all competitors, “ continued Neveu.

“It should never happen if the IP addresses are well protected.”